Margaret Bary

SULLIVAN: Um, so if you would count to five for me.

BARY: One, two, three, four, five.

SULLIVAN: Great.

BARY: I can be closer or farther --

SULLIVAN: Yeah.

BARY: -- whatever.

SULLIVAN: Um, you're --

BARY: I'm kind of backed up because I thought I needed a little distance, but--

SULLIVAN: Um, no, that's good right there. OK. So, let me turn the sound up-- Ah, so we're rolling to begin. This is the Brooklyn Historical Society Oral History Project with Brooklyn Heights Synagogue. Today is November 2nd, 2010. I'm Sady Sullivan from the Brooklyn Historical Society, and if you would introduce yourself to the recording, however you like.

BARY: Margaret Wagner Bary.

SULLIVAN: And is Wagner your maiden name?

BARY: Yes, that's the name I had as a child.

SULLIVAN: Mhm. Mhm.

BARY: And Bary is my married name.

SULLIVAN: And for the archives, what's your date of birth?

BARY: [date redacted for privacy], 1957.

SULLIVAN: And where were you born?

BARY: Right here at Long Island College Hospital [339 Hicks Street] and I grew up all my life in this neighborhood.

SULLIVAN: In Brooklyn Heights.

BARY: In Brooklyn Heights.

SULLIVAN: Um, and where -- where exactly -- do you remember your -- the addresses that you've lived at?

BARY: The first address I lived at, I don't remember, but it was Montague Street right near Columbia Heights by the Promenade. Ah, then we lived on Remsen Street and I remember that very well, that apartment. And then my parents brought a brownstone on Clinton Street and that's the house we -- we live in, uh, currently.

SULLIVAN: Oh, great.

BARY: So -- so I've been at three -- only three locations.

SULLIVAN: Mhm. Mhm. And so tell me a little bit about your parents.

BARY: Um, my f-- my father, uh, grew up in New York and shall I -- how much 2:00information would you like?

SULLIVAN: Um, uh, you know, as much -- a lot. We want to know, you know, to get a good sense of --

BARY: OK. He was the son of immigrants. His mother had come to this country as a young woman when she was already 20 and his father had come to New York when he was four years old in the 1890s and they had met because my grandfather was teaching English to immigrants. And, uh, they settled, they lived in the Bronx. They, uh, lived in many different locations. During the Depression they moved around regularly. At, uh, they lived -- they summered --

SULLIVAN: [sneezes]

BARY: -- in Fort Lee, briefly. Bless you.

SULLIVAN: [laughter]

BARY: And I lived, uh, in Fort Lee for a period of months across the George Washington Bridge, and then they lived in --

SULLIVAN: Oh, that's in New Jersey.

BARY: Yes. And then they lived in Seagate for -- a period, and in fact, that's -- my father had his bar mitzvah when they were living in Seagate, so he went to junior high school there.

SULLIVAN: Oh, wow.

BARY: There was a community which was originally a summer community, but when times were hard and the rents were cheaper they stayed in Seagate.

SULLIVAN: That's the -- the neighborhood to the side --

BARY: It's next to Coney Island.

SULLIVAN: Yeah, great.

BARY: Yeah. And he still has friends he remembers from that period, and then he, uh, went to Bronx High School of Science and his family moved to the Upper West Side of Manhattan where they -- where they then stayed. That's where my grandparents were when I was a child. And, uh, he went -- he was in the Army during World War II and when he came back he went to college in Upstate New York. He went to Hobart College. Which he've -- he knew at that time he wanted 4:00to go to medical school and it was very difficult for Jewish men coming back from the Army at that time to be admitted. There were just large numbers who wanted to go on in medicine, and by going to a smaller college, his -- his uncle helped him to pay for college. And, uh, he had originally started at city college but then after they war he c-- finished at Hobart and then he went to, um, medical school in Chicago. Chicago Medical School. And that's where my parents met. And my mother's story is -- is quite interesting. She grew up in Berlin. She has a Jewish family. And her family, uh, left as refugees from Hitler's, uh, Germany and -- and her father didn't get a boat out of leaving 5:00from Europe until 1939 and my mother didn't leave with her own mother, grandmother, and sister until the summer of 1940.

SULLIVAN: Wow.

BARY: So they were pretty much the last, um, as far as I know they were the last boat that was able to leave from Italy, and they went through the Suez Canal and they stopped in India. They couldn't get off at the boat in In-- India because they were foreign nationals. They, uh, because they were German. They weren't allowed off. And they went to Shanghai which was one of the few communities that were open to ref-- Jewish refugees from Europe at the time. And she had her teenage years in Shanghai. She went to a Jewish day school that had been established by Sephardic Jews who were a community in Shanghai that predated the 6:00war-- wartime. And that school was in the British tradition of education. So when she went to Shanghai, she went to school in English. And she had a really terrific time in Shanghai. De-- despite the deprivation of wartime, I think it was very, uh, exciting time. It was full of young people who were coming from all the European countries and were living there as refugees. A big Jewish community, uh, which continues to be a very strong community in this country because they all then left China in 1946, 1947 before the revolution there and most everybody made their way to the United States or Canada. So, uh, after the war, her family took a boat from Shanghai and went to San Francisco. Uh, her 7:00fam-- her father was a physician and he had practiced in Berlin and also in Shanghai and, in California it was very difficult to get licensing, so they continued to where they had relatives in Gary, Indiana and then my -- then they settled in Chicago and my mother was working there. She had gotten a business degree. And, uh, that's where my parents then -- then met. And my father returned to New York to, uh, do his residency after medical school and my parents got married. He -- he did a residency in, uh, Brooklyn at the Veterans' Hospital and they chose, uh, this neighborhood as a -- as a nice neighborhood to settle at the time. That would be not too far from Manhattan but convenient for his -- his work. Um, my father went on to practice medicine with the Brooklyn 8:00Medical Group which, uh, was part of HIP [Health Insurance Plan of New York] and was actually just a block from here, uh, right on Pierrepont Street between Clinton and Court. It's part of Saint Ann's School now. That building got sold to Saint Ann's a few years ago.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: And he stayed with, uh, HIP through his whole career and, uh, my mother initially was working as a secretary in lower Manhattan and then took time off to have her family. And then got her college degree at Columbia and completed a Master's in Social Work at NYU and worked in the public schools as a later career in -- in Brooklyn.

SULLIVAN: What did -- what was -- what did she do in the public schools?

BARY: As a -- she came in as a social worker. Um, it was difficult at that time to get positions in social work but she actually got a position because she was 9:00bilingual although she -- I'm not sure she ever met a German-speaking child in the district she was working in -- in Brooklyn. She met many Chinese families and other, uh, other languages, but I think that, uh, being, uh, a non-native English speaker probably gave her more understanding for what families and children were going through. So I think that even if she didn't have their language, it probably was justified to, uh --

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: -- to give someone a -- a -- to look for people who are bilingual in the, uh, social work. She worked, uh, part of a team with an educational consultant and a psychologist in, uh, Bensonhurst. Uh, Bay Ridge area. A number of different schools.

SULLIVAN: Mhm. And so did she -- when she was spending time in China, did she 10:00pick up some Chinese language?

BARY: She didn't. Her younger sister, who's four years younger, played on the streets more with the local kids, and she, uh, picked up a little bit at the time and also helped because her father was treating Chinese patients who he didn't have a language in common with and, so she s-- she says her younger sister helped a little with that --

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: -- process, but I guess a doctor can manage even without a language to --

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: -- uh, to work with people.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: So she -- she didn't learn any Chinese and really didn't meet Chinese people there. Very much part of a European community.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: Yeah.

SULLIVAN: Um, and I -- I realized I didn't ask at the time. Your father's parents. Where did they -- where were they both from?

BARY: They were both from the Ukraine, from Russia.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: And, uh, his father had left their town, uh, because of per-- persecution 11:00in the, um, early 1890's. My grandmother had, uh, stayed through the revolution in -- in, uh, Russia, and uh, there were terrible pogroms in 19-- 19 and 1920 and her father and some of her brothers and her close sister were all murdered at that time, and she was away in, uh, her -- her father was a very, um, a local merchant. They had a very-- big business, um, in their, uh, town, and she had been sent to, uh, Odessa to study pharmacy. So she was quite a long distance from home at the time of the pogroms and she got a message and she came home and then there were, um, groups that came from the United States, cousins, family 12:00m-- relatives of people who lived in the town who raise money here and went back to their town which was called Estopolia [phonetic] and helped young people to leave at that time. And she was 20 years old and she came with her, uh, sister who was 19 and her brother who was 21 and they all escape-- escaped, they fled into Poland, uh, through Warsaw where they waited for further funds and then they came to the United States at, um, at that time.

SULLIVAN: Mhm. And do you know why she came to New York? Is that --

BARY: They were cousins and -- and in fact she, uh, came to live with her -- her cousin who was a little older than her, who was married, and she went into their tiny, one room apartment with the married cousin. When she arrived that's where 13:00she went. Her brother came through Canada and her sister, I believe, came through Philadelphia, so they all were separated for a time until they regrouped in New York.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: Yeah.

SULLIVAN: That's such a global history in your family.

BARY: Yes. Yeah.

SULLIVAN: Mhm. Um, so what year do you think it was -- your parents -- around the time that your parents found this neighborhood?

BARY: They moved here in 1954.

SULLIVAN: And do -- do you know why -- I mean I -- I -- I recognize the closeness to Manhattan and stuff but was there something also about the neighborhood that they chose?

BARY: I think it was a very vibrant neighborhood at that time and it had -- I think they were looking for a place that there were people who were interested in culture and -- it was like full of artists and there were many teachers, and, 14:00uh, and I think it was attracting lots of people who were selling in the neighborhood were not necessarily from Brooklyn, unlike neighborhoods farther into Brooklyn, which were still local neighborhoods, people who had grown up there.

SULLIVAN: Mhm. Mhm.

BARY: So, uh, yeah, I think it just had nice apartment buildings and the -- the kind of things that people still look -- look at. Restaurants. And Montague Street was really -- actually, they lived on Montague Street in a little walk-up apartment in their first apartment before I was born. And then the -- they -- the other one down Montague was a later -- later move. But they did -- it was very -- it was somewhat Bohemian, more like the Village than it is now.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: Yeah.

SULLIVAN: And do you have siblings?

BARY: I have two younger siblings. We're three years -- one, uh, a sister three years younger and then -- a brother six years younger than me, and my brother 15:00lives in the neighborhood as well and my sister is in Boston area.

SULLIVAN: Mhm. So, that brings us to, um, to the Synagogue. How did your family get involved?

BARY: Well, I was -- I did ask my par-- both my parents are alive, they're in their mid-80's, and I asked them about that, and also about whether they had been involved with a synagogue before, and my father had not -- had not since his bar mitzvah at 13 and my mother, also since leaving Berlin, had not been involved with a synagogue. So after they had children, I think they were interested in, uh, f-- finding out about what a Jewish community would be like and they heard about this new Reform synagogue that had formed in the neighborhood. And I was asking -- they think just word of mouth. Some of their 16:00friends probably told them about it. And I also asked about, well, why in particular a Reform synagogue. And my mother, uh, thought that in Berlin they had been part of a reform synagogue [inaudible] and they knew that that would be a more progressive, uh, type of community. So that interested them and so they probably went when there was an open house. Uh, but they don't have a lot of memories and I know they -- that my mother wasn't very interested in organized religion and for the most part didn't -- didn't come to the Synagogue. And my father was more interested in traditions and uh, I too have some memories of going to services just with my father and myself, and maybe we went for some holidays and -- and -- and I had an interest as a child, and ended up going to Hebrew School on and off. It was called religious school. And I'm not sure how 17:00continuous that experience was. It's hard for me to remember. And they were not -- I have many more memories about this than my parents do so I wasn't able to get much more information from them. Uh, I know my -- they left it to us to decide. They weren't a family who decided their children would go. And, uh, I know my sister and brother both dropped in and tried out Hebrew School and weren't very interested and didn't continue but I seem to had an interest at that age that then continued in different ways as I -- as I got older. So my first memory, I believe I was six. [laughter] Uh, the funny thing about that is -- I just talked to my parents -- is I thought I was asked to come to the bimah 18:00which was a very low platform -- it wasn't like a high bimah -- when, for my birthday -- the month of my birthday because I happen to have gotten -- not because it was my birthday, but for a synagogue and, uh, event, and the rabbi called up everyone whose birthday was that month. But perhaps I was seven because it seems unlikely that -- the month I was six was right when my youngest brother was born, and it's -- [laughter] -- it really seems unlikely that my father would have gone out with me to the Synagogue right at that time.

SULLIVAN: [laughter]

BARY: You know, he was born at the same time as my birthday, so perhaps I -- uh, that memory is what -- but I -- I still think I was six, and I remember, um, that uh, Rabbi Michael Gilbert was there, and the reason I remember him very well was he came back later when I was 12, and I knew him again at that time, but he was a very tall man. And I also ran into him in some places later on when 19:00I was older. And -- at least he seemed quite tall to me at the time. And when I came up for my birthday, he lifted me up high, and that's why I also think it makes sense that I was six. I wasn't, uh, much bigger than that. Uh, and yet I was old enough that I was a little embarrassed by that. [laughter]

SULLIVAN: [laughter]

BARY: And being in front of people. It was -- it was embarrassing. But, uh, the -- do you want to know where that synagogue was?

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: OK. Because the -- the congregation was not in its own building till it moved to the first Remsen Street location. And, uh, I have a very good memory for places and spaces and I'm quite sure about this although both my parents -- [laughter] -- don't -- don't remember any of these locations that I -- I do. Uh, so there's a church that is currently -- was converted into co-op apartments and 20:00it's on Clinton Street at the corner of Remsen Street. It's on the, uh, southeast side of the street. And, uh, I believe it was a rather progressive church at that time, and that's the first space I remember going to and I -- and I have a distinct memory of that back room and entering through where they now have a doorway with entrances to the apartments and i-- coming into the sanctuary from there. So we must have used that space at a time when they weren't having services. Um, and I'm not sure that -- if there was any kind of religious school at that time or if we were just attending a few special events for families. Um, because the next -- the strong memory I have of a place is, uh, when I know I was, uh, 10 years old. It must have been in 1967 because it 21:00was at the time of the 1967 War in Israel. And I remember that be-- and I must have been going there the year before as well, but at the time of the '67 War we were studying current events as part of our religious school education. And that, in fact, I remember being really excited about and was very interested in. Uh, and we were in what is n-- what was then the Bossert Hotel and then is part of the Watchtower building and if you enter -- we entered the building from the Remsen Street side. There was a short stairs down into a back door. And that's where the religious school was, in some room down there, and I think there was only -- you know, a few classes like, probably I was in a 10-12 year old group. Something. And we met Sunday mornings for two hours. So, uh, at -- one of those 22:00hours was devoted to learning to write the Hebrew letters and to read the words. Not to understand Hebrew but just to be literate in it, able to read the, uh, alphabet, and the other was, uh, current events, and it must have also included Jewish history. Uh, biblical history. I don't remember it including more modern -- mo-- modern times. And I also remember a stairway there that led up to what I think must have been a big ballroom in the Bossert on street level and that's where there were services that we very occasionally attended. But I remember being there with just chairs set up f-- you know, just a flat, uh, space. It didn't have any kind of risers and some kind of bimah or arc in the front. And I remember at that time, uh, Marion [Cohen], um, singing -- [sigh] -- I'm just 23:00blocking on her last name -- for -- she's an early member of the congregation who, um, was a patient of my father's so she was pointed out. Probably she came up and greeted us afterwards and I met her at those times and she would sit in the back and she would sing in a beautiful, operatic, uh, voice.

SULLIVAN: Is it Cohen, is that her last name?

BARY: Yes. Marion Cohen.

SULLIVAN: Yes.

BARY: Yes. Yes.

SULLIVAN: Ah.

BARY: And her and her husband I remember from back at that period and they were some of the few people I then recognized when I came to the Synagogue much later when I joined with my children.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: As an adult. Uh --

SULLIVAN: Do you remember who the teachers were of -- of the religious school?

BARY: No. No. Um, no, but I do remem-- the only one I remember is, uh, Rabbi 24:00Gelber, and that -- and I remember him from the next location that I have a -- a clear picture of which was at, uh, Grace, uh, Church on Grace Court Alley. And we used their -- I forget what the -- what the room is called, off the main sanctuary. It's a back room. I later found out what that space is called. It's like a social hall. If you go through the sanctuary. And they -- there were some sliding doors and they arranged that. We probably had a number of tables there and groups of kids, again, in mixed age group -- groupings sitting around. And, uh, I must have been around 12 at that time, and then uh, Rabbi Gelber had some new ideas about learning Hebrew and he got little cassette tape recorders for us 25:00and tapes and we were supposed to practice and they decided to add weekday sessions and my parents weren't really talking or looking towards bat mitzvah at that time and I thought that that seemed like more attention than -- than I wanted. I didn't, uh, didn't want to be the center of -- of things, and also, I was starting high school in, well actually junior high, but it was called high s-- Hunter High School starts at seventh grade at, uh, in Manhattan in s-- and traveling and I had a lot of other interests, and I didn't -- it was just too much to go after school to -- to a religious school. So for a few different reasons, at that point, I quit and I did not -- didn't continue with the -- the Synagogue.

SULLIVAN: And so you -- you weren't bar -- bat mitzvahed?

BARY: No.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: Not till I turned 40.

SULLIVAN: Oh.

BARY: When I rejoined, yes.

SULLIVAN: Well, I -- I'm excited to get to that point, but let's stay with childhood for a bit. So, you were saying that your parents weren't -- you know it was -- they were leaving it up to you kids to decide.

BARY: Mhm.

SULLIVAN: So how did you -- how did you actually get to religious school or get to synagogue?

BARY: I walked everywhere --

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: -- and in this neighborhood from when I was seven I walked -- I went everywhere on my own.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: We went to school, came home, seven or eight. Yeah. By the end of second grade, so probably eight. So, uh, I would have, uh, right. Not for that very early one but for when I was, uh, going at age 10. It was only a few blocks away so it was very convenient --

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: -- from our home.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: Yeah.

SULLIVAN: And were your siblings also going?

BARY: Well, I think they -- they would start the year off and I don't know how 27:00long they continued. Yeah. Um, and I didn't have any -- something else I was thinking about is that none of -- I went through public school. I went to PS 8 all the way through sixth grade and --

SULLIVAN: Where's PS 8?

BARY: PS 8 is -- is, continues to be on Middagh and Hicks Street. It was -- it's the zone school for this neighborhood up till about Remsen Street. And, uh, although quite a number of my classmates were Jewish, uh, none of them were attending -- getting formal Jewish education at that time.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: And they celebrated holidays at home in informal ways, I'd say.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: Yeah.

SULLIVAN: Mhm. And -- I had another question about the education. I'm worried about this squeaky chair, sorry. Hold on. OK. [laughter] Um, and -- and Hunter, 28:00was -- was there anybody when you were in high school who you were -- you were sharing that with?

BARY: Hunter I encountered stu-- Hunter had a large number of Jewish students at that time. Probably well over fifty percent. And I encountered students who were coming from more conservative homes and quite a few who were having a bat mitzvah at that time. And none of whom lived -- uh, a few -- the few who lived in this neighborhood were not part of the religious school here, so that didn't influence me to be -- to continue with religious school, although later, by the time I was, uh, 15, it involved me in Jewish activities in a different way when I was at Hunter. So.

SULLIVAN: Yes.

BARY: I could tell --

SULLIVAN: Yeah, tell me.

BARY: Yeah. So, first I got -- there was a club that was doing Israeli dancing 29:00at school so I started going to that because I was very interested in dance and -- which is my profession.

SULLIVAN: Oh, I didn't know that.

BARY: And I continued in that, and -- and that's part of why it was so hard for me to have an after school commitment 'cause I was also going to dance classes after school in Manhattan. Uh, at any rate, I took part in, uh, the club at school with Israeli dancing and that kind of blossomed into something bigger and there was a -- an organization, uh, it must have been around 45th street and 5th avenue, that area which was very close to where the high school was at that time, where there was, uh, they were doing all kinds of, uh, young Jewish leadership training, and I forget the name of the organization. But I went there and then I got interested in Israel and I did a summer program that they -- they 30:00ran to -- to Israel and then I --

SULLIVAN: Actually traveling to --

BARY: Yes, I spent --

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: -- a long summer in Israel and I had quite a few cousins to look up and that was my first contact with them and I've continued over the years now to know those -- those cousins, but through my, uh, father's family I had, uh, a few -- I had cousins my age which made it really fun because I spent -- I did the program and then I also spent time with my -- with my cousins in a youth group activity for a week in the summer. Uh, and when I came back from that, I started to learn numbers and a little Hebrew when I was there, whatever I could pick up, and uh, when I came back I had a teacher at high school who was a Latin teacher who also had been -- had become very interested in Israel and had traveled there and was learning Hebrew and teaching himself. And so he taught a 31:00Hebrew class even though he was in the process of learning, and the n--

SULLIVAN: And was that part of the curriculum, or was it a --

BARY: Yes, I got credit for -- that was a regular course.

SULLIVAN: Oh. Cool.

BARY: Yeah. Yes. And so that was my first exposure to Hebrew as a spoken language. Modern Hebrew. And then when I got to college I also continued to take Hebrew as a spoken language. I'm not -- language is not my strength so I didn't get that far with it but enough that I got some basic vocabulary that -- that stuck with me and, uh, yeah. And I didn't -- did not continue it after -- after that time.

SULLIVAN: Why do you think at this -- at this time, at 15, why this interest in Israel and learning --

BARY: I think I was introduced to some of these -- there was a Jewish youth group and I did a weekend away and the Israeli dance. It was a social outlet, too, because I was at an all-girls school so I was very interested in different 32:00activities, but I think, if I figure right, it was a very political time in terms of Israel and, uh, there was a lot of interest. The summer I was there was just before, uh, when I came back there was the -- there was another war in Israel in 1973 and I was there just before, uh, that broke out in October of '73.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: Yeah. But I wasn't interest-- I wasn't looking for religion at that point. I think it was more a cultural interest and an identity.

SULLIVAN: Mhm. And so what year did you graduate from high school?

BARY: [19]74.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: Yeah. And then, yeah, in college I didn't do very much that connected me with the Jewish community although I went to -- first to State University at 33:00Binghamton and there was a large Jewish community there, again, of students, although not -- not doing organized Jewish activities. But I did study Hebrew there and I took some really terrific courses, now that I think of it, ah, so I must have still had quite an interest in Jewish studies because I, uh, took first a Bible as Literature course that was really, really excellent. And actually it was taught by the husband of the woman who's teaching my Hebrew class, so I was taking Hebrew there from her and The Bible as History and then I went on to take a course in, uh, Medieval Poets of -- Medieval Jewish Poets of Spain, that I learned all about the Sephardic world and I didn't -- did not know that history before that. And then in political studi-- science, I took a course that was all about the Middle East and the politics of that. I remember learning 34:00about Nasr and -- and Arafat and all these leaders and things that were very, very current at the time. Uh, so actually I got quite a bit out of -- [laughter] -- considering that neither of -- none of those were my major, those were things that, um, I must have just found of interest.

SULLIVAN: Mhm. And what were you majoring in?

BARY: I ended up majoring in psychology and dance.

SULLIVAN: Mhm. Uh, so when did you start going back to dance? When did you start dancing?

BARY: I was dancing all that time but I didn't see it as a career.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: And actually my career hasn't been as a performing dancer. It's been as teaching dance.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: But the -- it was just a very strong interest for me.

SULLIVAN: What kind of, um, dance did you --

BARY: I was doing modern dance and choreography.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: And teaching creative dance and then I went on and I did an MFA in dance 35:00and choreography.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: And I teach at Brooklyn Friends School [375 Pearl Street]. I teach creative dance.

SULLIVAN: Ah, and what -- what kind of dance did you start with before -- you mentioned the Israeli dance in high school, but what were you doing as a little kid?

BARY: Well, uh, there was a wonderful dance teacher in the neighborhood and actually she taught classes at Saint Ann's school, after school, and I ca-- I went to her dance -- her weekly class as a child, and then I went on to study and when I went to Manhattan for high school I went to New Dance Group Studios where I studied the Martha Graham technique and I studied at Alvin Ailey studios and later I studied with Merce Cunningham quite extensively.

SULLIVAN: Wow. Um, and so -- so from there how did you, uh, reconnect with the 36:00-- so in college I'm assuming you were not. In graduate school were you having connections with the Synagogue?

BARY: No.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: No. I -- I mean, I continue to always celebrate Jewish holidays with my parents and with my grandparents but that was really the extent of our observance at home, having Seders and celebrating Rosh Hashanah.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: Yeah.

SULLIVAN: Can you tell me more about that, what your -- what your family, parents, grandparents, um, traditions are?

BARY: Those traditions really are about family meals together. I mean, a Seder we -- we did follow, uh, use the Haggadah but, uh, Rosh Hashanah was, uh, my grandmother made soup. She -- the menu was usually the same thing and she'd make a pot roast and we'd have kasha and she always commented on -- she tasted her 37:00soup and it either had too much salt or too little salt. That was the extent of her spicing.

SULLIVAN: [laughter]

BARY: [laughter] And there's a -- a tradition of -- of her criticizing her own -- her own cooking was never quite right, but of course, then, others were supposed to -- did always enjoy the food very much, and we'd go -- when I was much younger, we went to my grandparents' apartment on the Upper West Side and they -- my grandmother actually, as -- her bedroom was the biggest room of the apartment, so when we had a family dinner there, they extended the table and we'd pull it up against the bed. And I remember sitting -- so the chairs would go all around the other side and we'd also use the bed for seating. So I remember sitting on her bed for the holidays. And later we moved to my parents' 38:00home because they had a -- I guess once we were in the brownstone and we had a bigger family and my aunt lived in the neighborhood here as well. And we'd get together for, uh, for Rosh Hashanah, we'd get together for Passover and do a Seder was -- although we had the Haggadah, uh, my -- uh, my grandmother wasn't very interested in -- in following them and my grandfather really just wanted to tell the story and he always told the story of Passover in his own words. And it was always too long for my grandmother and she'd be trying to cut him off and she'd be up and down and trying to get food on the table, and uh, he -- my grandfather was a very good storyteller and he -- he enjoyed telling the children the story of Passover and telling other -- other stories as -- as well. He knew Jewish history very thoroughly. Uh, both my grandparents did. Those were the grandparents I grew up with. My father's grandparents. My mother's parents 39:00never came to New York so I didn't know them very well.

SULLIVAN: Mhm. Where were they?

BARY: Well, they can-- from Chicago they moved to Kansas. My, uh, grandfather got a job at the Mount -- I forget the name, it's a well-known clinic out there, and he was working there. And they lived in Topeka. Um, and the interesting story -- [laughter] -- a side story, is in their life which, having gotten from Berlin to, uh, Shanghai to -- then to Chicago, to Kansas there was a tornado in 1962 and they were in the path of the tornado and they lost their -- their home at that time. Actually it was a little later because it was after my grandmother had died and it was my step-grandmother who was then in -- in the basement with 40:00my grandfather. And after that they took the retirement pension and they moved to Cuernavaca, Mexico, where my grandfather had first cousins and he needed a climate that would be good for his heart. He was having some heart problems. And a place that their money would go farther.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: And I think they were ready for an adventure and so the end of my grandfather's life he was in Cuernavaca.

SULLIVAN: Wow, that's such an interesting travel.

BARY: Yeah.

SULLIVAN: Mhm. Is there a Jewish community in Cuernavaca?

BARY: Yes, there is. There is. And there was a German Jewish community, so actually when I visited there and we'd meet people on the street he was often speaking German to --

SULLIVAN: Wow.

BARY: -- to them, although he spoke English fluently as well.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: He didn't learn Spanish but my step-grandmother was learning Spanish at the time. So, uh, in terms of the holidays here, we -- we did this, uh, Seder 41:00and then we'd celebrate Chanukah and play music and light candles and maybe, you know, make some latkes or food around the Chanukah as well. And I do remember -- maybe some Purim parties. Maybe those were associated with a synagogue or some -- some other family, uh, member.

SULLIVAN: Mhm. So, I -- I realize I forgot to ask this. Your dad's, uh, religious upbringing when he was, um, bar mitzvahed, what -- was that Reform, or?

BARY: That would have been an Orthodox synagogue properly -- prop -- probably. I don't think there really was Reform here. My impression was it started in Germany and it came --

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: -- here, so although my mother might have been aware of it in Berlin. And 42:00I'm not even sure about that. Hers might have been a more Orthodox synagogue as well. What's interesting, my mother in Berlin, when she was six, had a rabbi who would co-- uh, come to their home and teach her and her sister. Although her sister was much younger than her, so that doesn't really make sense, but maybe as she got a little, uh, older, but she remembers someone coming to their home and teaching her Hebrew and, uh, she had an Orthodox aunt and uncle who had all the Jewish holidays at their home. Her parents weren't particularly interested in traditions or -- or religion, but, uh, she remembers the -- the aunt and uncle, and she went to a local public school in Berlin until the -- the laws 43:00changed which I believe didn't happen till 1938 and she wasn't permitted to attend the school, at which point she went to a Jewish day school which connected her much more with a Jewish community because, uh, once again her father worked in, uh, where he was practicing medicine and it was in a local, uh, German neighborhood that was not a Jewish community at all. And so, you know, in the school she went to, until she was, uh, 11, was largely Christian and then she had the experience of going where there were Jewish teachers and other Jewish students.

SULLIVAN: Mhm. Were they going to synagogue in Berlin?

BARY: No, she doesn't remember that.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: Yeah.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: Right. But she was being taught to read Hebrew.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: Yeah. And she still -- when she picks up a prayer book -- she didn't get 44:00beyond that point later in life but she still recognizes the Hebrew alphabet.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: My grandmother also learned Hebrew in Russia as a child. My father's mother. And she learned, before she went to the Russian scho-- public school, which would have been when she was seven, she says when she was six she learned Hebrew at home. They spoke Yiddish at home but, uh, Hebrew was the written language, and so, uh, she also -- and her mother taught her all the Bible stories and Jewish history. And then she learned -- she had a Russian education in the -- in the schools.

SULLIVAN: And so was it her mother who was teaching her Hebrew as well, or?

BARY: No, she -- also, there was, uh, some kind of rabbi or teacher who came.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: And taught them Hebrew. Yeah.

SULLIVAN: Um, so moving to after -- well, after college and -- did you go right from college to graduate school?

BARY: A -- a few years later, but --

SULLIVAN: Mhm. Mhm.

BARY: Yes, and -- and then, I was living Upstate New York and then, uh, went to graduate school in, uh, at Sarah Lawrence which is up in Bronxville so that brought me closer to home.

SULLIVAN: Did you live up there, though, for --

BARY: Yes.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: Yeah. Yeah. And when I finished there in, uh, 1982 we moved back to this neighborhood --

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: -- to an apartment in my parents' building, so, uh, which we stayed in -- [laughter] -- so we -- we are -- we are still at that location. Um, I think that all through that period I -- I've felt a real connection to Judaism through my grandmother who I was very close to. The one I was -- the same one I've been 46:00telling you about, Ada.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: And I think that that, uh, although she, uh, never went to synagogue, she -- all -- I remember her as an older woman at -- for the high holidays she loved to listen to the services on the radio. She had a station she tuned into and she was very happy to be at home and have her own servants there. But she was deeply Jewish in her way and in the way she lived.

SULLIVAN: Mhm. What's her -- what's her name?

BARY: Her name is Ada and her -- her maiden name is Zabarco [phonetic]. And she's the sister of Louis Zabar who founded Zabar's. So she has a rather famous family --

SULLIVAN: Ah.

BARY: -- as it turns out. Yeah.

SULLIVAN: And then -- and what's her -- is her married name --

BARY: And her married name is Wagner which was my -- which was not a name that came from Russia. That name was taken at Ellis Island or when they immigrated but I -- I was told that their -- the name in Russia was Wagman and when they came here they -- um, my grandfather's family changed it to Wagner.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: And my mother complained because her name is Inga. She doesn't have a Jewish name, she has a very German name.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: In-- indicative of the times when she was growing up when they were quite assimilated, and then she married a Wagner, so she ended up with this very -- what she saw as very German name.

SULLIVAN: Mhm. [laughter]

BARY: [laughter] Although it didn't come from -- the Wagner did not come from Germany with her. She was Salomon. [pronounced "Zalamone"]

SULLIVAN: How do you spell that?

BARY: It's Salomon. S-A-L-O-M-O-N.

SULLIVAN: Ah.

BARY: But she pronounced it -- it's "Zalamone."

SULLIVAN: Great. So -- so when you came back to the neighborhood after being upstate, what was -- what was it like?

BARY: Well, I was really busy. [laughter] And, uh, my husband and I were out all day and I was teaching young children's classes and I was taking dance classes and we were going to performances at night, so we were hardly in the neighborhood. It was -- it was just a very busy period.

SULLIVAN: So you were already married when you -- when you got here?

BARY: Yes. I got married in '81.

SULLIVAN: So tell me about that. Mhm.

BARY: And, oh, we g-- oh, we -- that's interesting. Uh, we were in, uh, I was in graduate school and so was my husband and we decided to get married in the 49:00summer of '81 and we, uh, heard about a woman rabbi. We -- because we weren't affiliated with a synagogue at that time but we knew we wanted to get married in the Je-- Jewish tradition, although we didn't know what that looked like. We -- we did not have a lot of friends who had gotten married yet at that point and hadn't been to that many weddings and were fairly young. At any rate, we were introduced to this, uh, woman rabbi and met -- went and met her on Long Island and, uh, planned a very informal wedding with -- with her, very simple and, uh, she suggested texts we could use, uh, from the Songs of Solomon -- from the Song of Solomon which is traditional for weddings, and we read something but what -- we were not able to write anything very elaborate, like some of my friends did later in their -- in their vows. And we -- and we had our wedding, uh, at my -- 50:00in my parents' house on Clinton Street in the backyard. And we created a chuppah. Again we did something kind of traditional but in a new way. We had a friend who had just -- I didn't even know about the four corners really. I knew you stood under a chuppah. But this chuppah was just created by, um, a big metal ring which then there was plans for how you wrapped it with white ribbons which kind of came up and then hung from -- it wasn't easy. We had to find a place on the trees and string a rope to hang it in. I know my sister and my friend spent hours doing the ribbons to -- to create this -- this chuppah for us. But, uh, we set that up in the -- in the backyard, and that was our wedding. We, uh, you know, we dressed informally but nicely. I made my husband -- well, I guess I had 51:00a pattern for one of these kind of peasanty blouses that were pretty popular at the time in a really nice white -- well, off-white linen material.

SULLIVAN: Oh, and you made it for him?

BARY: Well, I -- I think I had it already and I didn't have time to make it and then we found someone who completed it for me.

SULLIVAN: Mhm. Mhm.

BARY: Yeah.

SULLIVAN: And how did you two met?

BARY: We met, uh, at Cornell --

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: -- when we were both newcomers there and we were going Israeli dancing. And so my husband also had -- was an avid Israeli and international folk dancer and he was a modern dancer as well. So we had a lot -- we had that in common and then all kinds of other things.

SULLIVAN: Mhm. Um, so I missed that part that -- when were you at Cornell?

BARY: I -- I started college at SUNY Binghamton and I went there for two years 52:00and then I went to Cornell for my second two years.

SULLIVAN: Ah, OK.

BARY: So when I arrived at Cornell my husband was also a newcomer there and we met at that time.

SULLIVAN: And where is he from originally?

BARY: Buffalo, New York. But his parents -- he has a whole other interesting story. His parents were both New Yorkers who grew up in the Bronx and after his father got an engineering degree and looked for work he found it in, uh, Buffalo area.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: We -- uh, there was a big steel industry at the time and so his family sta-- settled in Buffalo in a very non-Jewish community and he went to elementary school, uh, where he was virtually the only Jewish boy in the school --

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: -- and then went onto a high school where there was a little more of a Jewish community and went to a Jewish youth group and -- and, uh, that became, 53:00uh, a social outlet for him.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: But his -- his whole experience, uh, of growing up Jewish was very different from, uh, from mine in this neighborhood. Uh, I felt to be in the majority and I didn't feel to be a -- a small group or an -- and -- and didn't experience anti-Semitism. Uh, it was a very sophisticated community here in my experience in high school and college and his experience growing up in Buffalo, he really felt, uh, isolated and -- and subject to anti-Semitism there growing up.

SULLIVAN: Mhm. And did he have a -- did he have a connection with a synagogue in Buffalo?

BARY: Yes. His parents joined, and although neither of them had grown up with religious traditions, the synagogue was very important to them as a community, 54:00uh, so he went -- he -- he had a bar mitzvah which he never enjoyed going to, uh, Hebrew school at all but yet, as a teenager, then, he was part of a youth group in the synagogue and I think it was a really -- place he made friends. And -- and his parents made friends in the community.

SULLIVAN: Mhm. Mhm.

BARY: Those are the people I still remember to the -- that he remembers to this day.

SULLIVAN: Mhm. Mhm. So -- so back to -- so you both -- you're married and you get back to Brooklyn Heights and you're saying it was a busy time, so when --

BARY: Yeah, and we didn't do anything particularly Jewish, and it -- I -- in terms of any formal community here until after we had our -- well, our wedding, but that wasn't affiliated with a synagogue, and when we had our children -- oh, 55:00that's interesting. I didn't really know about, uh, baby naming which was just getting popular for girls when our daughter was born in '87 as an alternative to -- had to have something comparable to a bris.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: And, in fact, we did go to my in-laws' synagogue in Buffalo and have a baby naming with our daughter when she -- you know, when she was a few months old. I had forgotten that.

SULLIVAN: Mmh.

BARY: And then when our son was born in 1990, uh, we had a bris. So I guess we had thought about it enough, and even though again, I hadn't been to very many or -- no, my cousins must have done that when their boys were born and so I knew a little about it. And so we had, uh, a mohel come to our home and, uh, had a bris there at the time. But didn't -- was still not, uh, involved with the 56:00synagogue --

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: -- here. And then when my children were little and, uh, I was interested in celebrating the Jewish holidays, I started, uh, going to the open services that Brooklyn Heights Synagogue had for families with young -- pre-school children and, uh, and made a connection, and it took a number of years, and uh, the year might -- 15 years ago now. In 2005 when my da-- my daughter would have been seven or -- yeah, turning eight, and starting third grade, we joined at that point, and both of us wanted our children to go to Hebrew school. So we made that decision and stuck with it -- [laughter]

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: -- despite it not being always something that our kids enjoyed so much. 57:00Although, ah, our son did more than our daughter.

SULLIVAN: And so when were they born, your son and daughter?

BARY: My daughter was born in 1987 and our son in 1990. Another thing of interest is that while my -- my name and the names that my parents gave us were not Jewish names at all. We're Margaret, Audrey, Ronald. We, at that -- so, at that point already we knew we wanted Jewish names. I think it was also becoming a very popular thing to do. So our child-- [laughter] -- our children are named Hannah [Hah-nah] and Joshua.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: So.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: There are quite a few other Hannahs [Hah-nah] out there. Not many that call them Hannah [Hah-nah], but Anna, Annas, Hannah, Hannahs. And there were quite a few Joshuas going to school with him as well.

SULLIVAN: Mhm. So when you reconnected with the synagogue, with your children, 58:00did you feel like -- I mean, did you have the memories then of your childhood there?

BARY: I -- I did a little but I think they came back. I started thinking about it more probably as I started going to some of the services and I was reflecting and trying to reconnect. When -- when -- when we joined, I was really thinking about it in terms of my children --

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: Uh, not so much about myself --

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: -- and my own interest. And then, uh, I knew that I ha-- though that I was interested in, uh, having a bat mitzvah for myself. I also felt like I couldn't really ask my children to do something that I hadn't done.

SULLIVAN: Mmh.

BARY: I didn't feel like that was really fair, although I thought that they'd go to Hebrew school for a while and then eventually I'd get around to it. It turned out a class was forming that very first year I was there and perhaps it was the 59:00second year since I seem to remember it was when I turned 40 that I completed my bat mitzvah. At any rate, I jumped -- jumped right into that class. It was the last year that Sue Ann [Wasserman], uh, was our rabbi. She was a woman rabbi, obviously, and, uh, she -- we had a group of 10 women who did a bat mitzvah class together.

SULLIVAN: Oh.

BARY: And she taught it from a woman's perspective and really looking for identity as a woman within Jewish tradition. And it was a really meaningful class and I was just so lucky that I just happened to fall into it. Actually, I hadn't planned on taking that. I planned on taking a Hebrew class and I think there weren't enough people for the level Hebrew I needed -- like the s-- I thought I'd refresh myself. Because I knew that when I was going to the services I didn't know the prayers. I knew I could read Hebrew and I wanted to be able to 60:00take part in the services more. Um, so then I kind of fell into that class and it was -- it was just a once a week commitment, which was big at that time when I was working [laughter] and had two young children. Uh, but it was really a terrific experience. Uh, and it gave me the ownership of the prayers and the participation and then I really felt myself a member of the Synagogue.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: You know, in a way that I hadn't.

SULLIVAN: How do you think that that class came about?

BARY: Every few years there's interest in -- by people who have not had a bar or bat mitzvah themselves and some of the -- the group was very interesting because it was probably evenly divided between those who -- women who converted to Judaism and now were interested in bringing their family up as Jewish and wanted 61:00it for themselves. And there were a few who grew up in the Orthodox tradition where their brothers were bar -- had a bar mitzvah but they didn't and so they wanted to claim it, and then there were some like me who were more in the -- in the middle.

SULLIVAN: Mhm. That's really interesting. That's a -- mhm.

BARY: Yeah. But what was so terrific about Sue Ann and the way she taught that class is she really made it about us. Right away she made it clear, it wasn't about me learning some prayer so I could be there for my kids. It was about me finding meaning. And -- and also, I really didn't understand what Jewish prayers were, how it worked before then, and, uh, not that I do very much praying now or -- on such a deep level in terms of, uh, my interest in the -- in services and 62:00-- but I -- uh, through her I came to understand that, uh, in the process of learning the prayers and speaking them you have an experience. That's -- at least that's my experience of it.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: And there's something about the connection that happens internally as you're going through the -- as you're participating. So you don't have to have any particular belief in -- necessarily even in what the words might mean. You can interpret them how you choose but the active joining in in prayers with the community takes you on a journey.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: Yeah.

SULLIVAN: And then how did you -- you said that there were 10 women in that class. How then did -- did everyone complete their bat mitzvah?

BARY: We did it all together in one service, so each of us had a much smaller part than my children --

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: -- who did their own service later did, but nevertheless, by doing that I knew what the service entailed. I knew all the parts of it and I understand what it meant to write a D'var Torah. We all did our own, uh, D'var Torah and then some of us shared those. We -- you know, we didn't want to make it an overwhelmingly long service and we divided up, of course, all the prayers, but we had quite a few opportunities for us to speak during it. So, uh, it was really good to know what it involved when my children were going, uh, taking part in that --

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: -- later through their religious education.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: Um, so that was my first peer group, iden-- uh, network at the Synagogue where -- you know, from the -- and still, I see these people at -- these women at services occasionally, or different events at the Synagogue and I have that 64:00-- that connection with them. Um, then I made connections with some of the parents of kids who were going through religious school along with my children, so I have a few of those. And then I've done a few other -- do you want to hear about the other things --

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: -- sort of connecting me to the Synagogue that I've been --

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: Um, after, uh, I completed the bat mitzvah, I really enjoyed the chanting, the reading from the Torah, and I -- we were invited to take part in the high holiday services, uh, and chant a Torah portion and so I decided that -- to jump on it right away the first year because if you let something like that drop it's hard to get back to it. And a number of the other women in the group and myself started chanting, uh, for the services that fall and have continued doing that, 65:00so that's just a little -- uh, a little piece that connects me and that I've continued with, but then I started going to the adult choir which does a few things during the course of the year but it's especially active for the services. And that's been a group that I've continued with every year since then and another whole group of people I know and connect -- I find the Synagogue is like an overlapping circles of, uh, people you get -- get to know through different activities you participate in there.

SULLIVAN: Mhm. Is it -- um, in those -- those activity circles, is it generationally mixed?

BARY: It depends. Uh, it seems like a lot of the things I do at the Synagogue have women a little older than me.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: Uh, in the -- the, uh, choir is women and men, but the book group which, uh, the arts -- which is called the arts committee which I've been also a member 66:00of for a long time now. I joined that shortly after my bat mitzvah. Most -- I think because people tend to have a little more time as they get older --

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: -- when their children are grown, and then some of these women have retired. Uh, the one thing that really connected me with my peer group is, uh, the kids going through religious school, and I -- then we met the families more --

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: -- you know, our age.

SULLIVAN: What's the arts committee that you mentioned?

BARY: The arts committee meets monthly and we read -- it's a book group but we also put on arts events for the Synagogue.

SULLIVAN: Ah.

BARY: And that's kind of been a natural connection for me in terms of my interest in the arts.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: And it's connected me with a terrific group of women. One -- one man now, but primarily women who not only enjoy reading and culture but do a -- go to museums and, um, we do s-- things, uh, together on occasion that are connected 67:00to Judaism in some way, in music, book readings, museum shows, uh, films, theater over the years. But it's a -- it's a monthly gathering where we sh-- where we discuss books --

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: -- and then some other activities.

SULLIVAN: And is your -- do you have a -- a dance connection to the Synagogue or does that part of your life intertwine?

BARY: That hasn't -- that hasn't taken off very much. There isn't a lot of dance happening at the Synagogue.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: Over the years, once or twice we've had, uh, an Israeli dance event. We don't have a great space for it. Here or there over the years when my kids were in Hebrew school they had an Israeli dance class but there wasn't that much interest in it. And last year the whole book group arranged for an Israeli dance 68:00night with one of the -- the Brooklyn Heights folk dancers and we got together in their space and we had a night of, uh, Israeli dancing. But for the most part that hasn't -- that hasn't come together.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: Yeah.

SULLIVAN: And is your husband also -- is he still dancing? Is that --

BARY: Him and I do a lot of social dancing. And we do a form that's not connected to Judaism, although a lot of Jewish people do it, and it's called English country dancing.

SULLIVAN: Oh, I don't know what that is.

BARY: Yeah. Well, it's from England, so it was not -- and it was not -- uh, if you look at the Jane Austen films, that's the kind of dancing they're doing in the lines --

SULLIVAN: Oh, yeah.

BARY: -- in formal attire. And there's a community of people in New York and in this country who get together and, uh, actually, tonight, Tuesday nights we go English dancing and, uh, occasionally we have balls --

SULLIVAN: With the --

BARY: English balls.

SULLIVAN: With the dresses and?

BARY: Well, some people are more dressed than others. I'm -- I'm on the more casual side.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: Maybe just a nice long silk skirt or something but there are people who dress up in formal attire, and actually, there are many Jewish people who participate and are very interested in, uh, English dancing and also contra danc-- uh, American contra dancing which is -- an overlapping group of people do both, and the American contra is much more like square dancing and has a big young contingent now of, uh, people engaged and multi-genera-- generational. And then, uh, I also do ritual sword dancing, which again comes from England and is kind of part of this community and again, uh, on my team many Jewish people but it -- but it's not a Jewish form of dance. [laughter]

SULLIVAN: What is -- I don't know what ritual sword dancing is.

BARY: It's part of the Morris dance world and the Morris dancers are the ones who dance with bells and handkerchiefs --

SULLIVAN: Oh.

BARY: -- and dance for the season. It's an outside form of dance that celebrates, uh, chan-- changes in season. Not a concert form of dance but --

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: Uh, something that, you're a member of a team and you practice dance and then you perform them, and these came from villages in England. And some of the dances also have stick dances where they strike the sticks together, and these were done, often, for the ap-- to have a good apple harvest or at the time of the solstice to bring back the sun. There's ancient traditions that were all kind of reinvented in the early 20th century and then came to this country in the middle of the 20th century and kind of took off just in the last 30 years.

SULLIVAN: Oh, neat. And so you don't -- besides for these, um, occasional events, you're not doing Israeli dancing regularly?

BARY: Right.

SULLIVAN: Mhm. Mhm.

BARY: Yeah. Um, yeah, I don't do very much Israeli dance. Occasionally. I mean, they come back to me. I remember them.

SULLIVAN: Mhm. Mhm.

BARY: And there's many new dances all the time, but I don't -- yeah, I don't regularly do Israeli dance.

SULLIVAN: Mhm. Mhm. Um, the -- it reminds me, there might have been a time when you were not, um, in Brooklyn Heights. It might have been when you were in school but there was a rabbi and I'm forgetting his name but he was also a dancer and, um, and his name will come -- did you overlap with him at all?

BARY: No, he was very well --

SULLIVAN: Rick Jacobs? Is that --

BARY: Liked. Yes. Yes. He was very well-liked. And maybe I came to his service 72:00but I really didn't -- didn't know him.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: I just heard a lot about him because I came in shortly after.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: He was much missed by the Congregation.

SULLIVAN: Mhm. Mhm. And so, both of your children has their bar and bat mitzvah?

BARY: Yes. Yeah. And both -- [laughter] -- following our tradition of informal homemade parties, both of them -- we just had a brunch at home --

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: And, uh, didn't buy into any of the bar and bat mitzvah, um, just mass business things at all.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: No professional photographers, no activities, nothing at all. We just made a luncheon, we did the service very simply with a fairly small group of family and friends and tried to make it about the kids and me-- something meaningful 73:00for them.

SULLIVAN: Mhm. Mhm. Yeah, and are your kids still involved at the Synagogue?

BARY: No. They, um, one of them is in coll-- the younger one's in college and the older one is living back at home. She's graduated from college. But I -- I think that they might find their way back as they get a little older --

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: If, uh, judging from my own experience.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: Um, I haven't required, uh, anything of them. I feel like as they became adults they had to make their own choices and it had to be meaningful for them --

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: -- if it was going to be meaningful. Uh, I think my son who's now at Dartmouth kind of discovered his Jewish identity when he arrived there and found himself on a floor with real Christians. Not -- some real fundamentalist 74:00Christians on his floor.

SULLIVAN: Oh.

BARY: I think because he happened to land on a no -- a substance free floor, it attracted them, but they were also some of the most, like, outstanding students, like very serious. And his -- [laughter] -- I don't know how it happened, but his end of the floor, he had a roommate who was Jewish from Scarsdale and there was another two young men right across a neighboring room who was also Jewish. So they had four Jewish young men at the end of the floor and -- [laughter].

SULLIVAN: On the floor of -- [laughter]

BARY: So the funny story was, my son who, uh, generally was not -- is not so fond of dressing up for Halloween, but freshman year, he was co-opted into being one of the four Blue -- Blue Man Group Jews and they -- if you know about the Blue Man Group. Or maybe they just called themselves Blue Man Jews. They dressed 75:00up with blue faces and they wore beards and peyot and hats and --

SULLIVAN: [laughter]

BARY: -- I was allowed to see a photo of that, but -- so I thought that he must be having some kind of identity, uh, there.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: And he was going to, uh, go to Israel last year for one of the -- uh, there's a program in Israel that you can come, uh, back, I forget what they're -- it will come to me in a moment -- uh, that you're invited for a free trip, uh, if you're Jewish and haven't been there before. And then it didn't work out so he postponed that but I know he's interested in -- in making a trip. And somewhere along the way my daughter told me that she was glad that she had a bat mitzvah and had been introduced even though it wasn't something that seemed very 76:00important to her in her life, I think it's very much a part of her identity.

SULLIVAN: Mhm. Mhm. And what about your home celebrations of the high holidays? Are those -- are they similar to when you were a kid?

BARY: Yeah, my husband took over all the cooking.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: So I -- I do more of going to services. He's never been ver-- too interested, and he, uh, ma-- loo-- researches food. He does much more interesting menus than my -- my grandmother did, although he sometimes does her traditional menu as well from my father. It makes him very happy, uh, but my husband does all our cooking at -- for all our meals but, uh, and -- and as well for the holidays.

SULLIVAN: Mhm. And what does he do as a profession?

BARY: He works in academic computing at NYU.

SULLIVAN: Ah.

BARY: And he's a-- he also landed a job, uh, in the early '80's which he's continued to this day --

SULLIVAN: Oh, wow.

BARY: So we haven't done a lot of moving around, either of us.

SULLIVAN: So you started at the -- at Friends then?

BARY: I didn't start at -- at Brooklyn Friends till, uh, '91 when my son was one years old but I've been there now for, uh, for t-- this is my 20th year.

SULLIVAN: Wow. Wow. Mhm. Let me see if I have other -- you've given such a good -- uh, like a wonderful generational shape to the understanding of the Synagogue. I really -- I'm enjoying this. Um, what about -- are you -- do you have a time concern?

BARY: Um, could I take one moment to call my husband?

SULLIVAN: Oh, yes.

BARY: -- and tell him -- 'cause I didn't know if I was going to be able to make it --

SULLIVAN: Yup.

BARY: -- to meet him at six and I'm not going to. I'll just meet him later.

SULLIVAN: Sure. I'll s--

[Interview Interrupted.]

SULLIVAN: Start this again.

BARY: Let me have a sip.

SULLIVAN: Uh, this is November 2nd, 2010, part two, interview with Margaret Bary for the Brooklyn Synagogue and this is at the Brooklyn Historical Society. Part two. OK, what did you think of?

BARY: Well, uh, when my children were little, ac-- actually, right after my daughter was born in 1988 I -- I was teaching pre-school at -- music and movement at central synagogue pre-school. Uh, I had been teaching in different pre-schools and part time situations in the city and -- so I wasn't particularly looking for a synagogue affiliation. However, I ended up in that position. It was a once a week job that I came in on Tuesday mornings and I taught all the, 79:00uh, students in their nursery school. And they, uh, asked me to, uh, do Jewish material around, uh, the holidays. So I discovered -- [laughter] -- a whole repertoire of pre-school songs around Chanukah and around, uh, Passover, and the, uh, rabbi would do -- or the cantor would do a program for families and children and I participated at the -- children in some of the material we had -- we had prepared. But that -- I th-- I think that was rather influential. In retrospect, in my own interest in myself bringing -- having my children take part in family -- uh, Jewish family education, because it was really my first 80:00exposure to it.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: And, uh, and so then -- I think that that probably influenced me in terms of why I sought out the programs at this Brooklyn Heights Synagogue with my kids as they got a little -- they were a little older, and that was just kind of chance that I found myself in, uh, that -- that setting. Yeah.

SULLIVAN: And where -- what synagogue was that that you --

BARY: That's Central Synagogue Pre-School. It's a big synagogue on East 55th Street and Lexington Avenue. So-- it's always interesting to think about the pieces that -- kind of random things that happen along the way and how they come together.

SULLIVAN: Um, I have some specific questions that maybe --

BARY: Sure.

SULLIVAN: But these aren't -- we don't have to stick to them. I will -- you know, we can definitely wander as we go. Um, we've talked about some of the -- 81:00some of my questions were about turning points in -- in the life of the Synagogue, and um, you gave such good descriptions of the space turning points. Um, have you noticed -- has there been changes in the ritual practice at all?

BARY: In my memory, and this has been somewhat confirmed by questions I've asked other people, when I was a child the Reform service had a lot more English in it --

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: -- and then when I came back to it as an adult there were many prayers we were doing in Hebrew and the -- the community was participating much more in Hebrew. And the pronunciation also changed because when I was a child and first learning Hebrew, uh, it had all the Ashkenazi pronunciation, the "ah" sound. You 82:00know, "Baah-ruch." Like my grandmother pronounced it. Baruch atah Adonai. And then, uh, when I came back to Hebrew, and -- and, uh, of course, when I've studied modern Hebrew in college I was hearing this of the, uh, modern Hebrew pronunciation which is Sephardic. Uh, then when I came back to the synagogue all the prayers were then, uh, pronounced with modern Hebrew pronc-- pronounced with a different vowel sound. Baruch atah Adonai. So, it's -- it's a different vowel sound. I don't know how familiar you are with it.

SULLIVAN: No, I'm not. Can you --

BARY: But that was a big change. And I think that, um, that happened sometime in the early '70's, but I'm not sure about the history of that. But there was a change, there was -- the Reform movement made a decision to go with the modern Hebrew pronunciation.

SULLIVAN: Oh, that's a really interesting -- can you do the -- the comparison 83:00again so that I can hear it and also so that we have it on the recording?

BARY: Yeah. So my grandmother would say, uh, "Boh-ruch atoh Adonai. Henu malech ha-olom."

SULLIVAN: So a lot more "O" -- O-ey.

BARY: Yeah. And we now say "Baruch atah Adonai, elo-henu malech ha-olem" --

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: -- which is the -- the He-- the modern Hebrew --

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: -- pronunciation. Uh, but you'll still notice this, uh, when you go to a service where someone comes up on the bimah to, um, uh, give the blessing, and you'll get people who grew up, uh, in going to services will often -- you know, if they're older than me and they grew up with -- uh, in a synagogue and know the prayers they'll s-- they will pronounce them with the Ashkenazi, yeah.

SULLIVAN: Oh, that's really interesting.

BARY: Pronunciation. Um, and of course it's just a much bigger, more vibrant community, and the whole social justice piece of Judaism, uh, I don't remember anyone talking about that when I was a child. Of course, uh, we were studying current events and there was a real interest in the world, uh, but that came from the rabbi and more about discussion, uh, I don't remember that there were any activities, uh, going on to, you know, in terms of benefiting the larger community.

SULLIVAN: And -- and do you see that now?

BARY: That's a tre-- really big piece of the Synagogue and it's -- it's something that attracts many people.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: To the Synagogue.

SULLIVAN: Can you describe what's going on now?

BARY: Well, there's the -- we have a homeless shelter, we have food drives going on, we have people who do all different activities like walking in the march to 85:00raise funds for breast cancer, uh, research, and uh, what else is-- you know, students do a lot of different projects of their own, of their own choosing that --

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: -- they are, they are encouraged to participate in. Yeah. I mean, I think there was -- my kids participated in something with the local nursing home at one point. Maybe they went and sang there. Uh, but I think for families -- uh, I mean, that's true in our schools now as well. Is it -- that wasn't something that I ever did in public school but now all the -- you know, Brooklyn Friends, it's very much a part of the Quaker mission as well, so it kind of goes hand-in-hand with what's built into the, uh, Jewish values.

SULLIVAN: Mhm. Mhm.

BARY: What's -- all the -- you know, all the independent schools and public schools, I'm sure, are doing a lot of service projects in the school now. I mean, that's become popular everywhere

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: So I don't think it's just happening at the Synagogue but I think it fits with a larger, um, a larger movement towards participating in, uh, action projects.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: Yeah, the teenagers are encouraged to do -- do projects and leading. Sorry.

SULLIVAN: Mhm. And you -- you were saying that that's an attraction to BHS for people in particular, do you think?

BARY: I think so, and -- and, uh, also being a community that is, uh, vocally welcoming of all different kinds of families. Again, that's happening all over in our community, but it's a place that a two father family can join and be 87:00really welcomed and embraced. And as far as I can see, there aren't that many -- I mean, most of our families are still traditional heterosexual couples but there's definitely -- definitely others joining and -- and they, you know, I've checked the literature on the website and we're just very clearly welcoming to all different family structures.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: I mean, I think a lot of young families have joined the Synagogue now, uh, because of the pre-school. I think that's brought in many and the school has expanded.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: It's been a big interest. There was a need for more pre-schools and I think people really like having a Jewish pre-school even if they're not going to 88:00go on to a Jewish day school.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: To get a foundation, kind of get their family started --

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: -- in terms of figuring out what it means to be Jewish for them.

SULLIVAN: Mhm. Was the pre-school around when your kids were that age?

BARY: No, no. Just the -- there was an after school pre-school program that then led into the religious school, so my son started in that after school pre-school program. Now, the real-- the pre-school started about te-- uh, nine years ago, I believe. Uh, and I have -- I haven't been very involved with it except I was asked to be on the search committee for the, uh, the current head of the pre-school. So last year I -- I joined in that committee, or perhaps it was now two years ago, and when the first -- we had a pre-school director who was retiring from that position who had been the founder of the pre-school and I 89:00guess she had been there seven years. So I took part in the search but what was -- aside from the work involved and, uh, it really connected me with some of these yo-- I met some of the young families of pre-schoolers --

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: Uh, who I wouldn't have known otherwise because their -- their children are much younger --

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: -- than mine. They're another whole generation. But as a result I see them in the neighborhood and at the Synagogue occasionally.

SULLIVAN: Mhm. Um, that actually leads right into my next question. What changes have you seen, um, in the -- in the community relations?

BARY: What do you mean by community relations?

SULLIVAN: Just the community in general in different -- actually, I think that this question, I -- originally the question was for an older generation who would have seen the -- uh, the transition from the sisterhood --

BARY: Mhm.

SULLIVAN: -- to women rabbis.

BARY: Right.

SULLIVAN: So there being a more isolated -- not that it was isolated, but just --

BARY: Mhm.

SULLIVAN: -- a different community for women.

BARY: Um, let me think about that more, other than the young families being there, but --

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: -- I was actually going to say, another thing very different, uh, that's grown over the years is, uh, Serge, our current Rabbi, has brought in a tremendous amount of adult Jewish education and programming --

SULLIVAN: Ah.

BARY: -- that's been, a lot of people take part in, and that's been a big -- that was there before him. Sue Ann was -- I mean, 'cause I had done that bat mitzvah class with Sue Ann but he's built it even more and he's -- he's a really strong teacher of Jewish history and, uh, that he's -- he's not the only teacher in that pro--. We've also had a women's group meeting that unfortunately conflicts with one of my dance activities on Thursday nights.

SULLIVAN: Oh.

BARY: So, I -- early on in that group, I, uh, I attended the, uh, monthly Thursday night group, and unfortunately I haven't been able to --

SULLIVAN: Oh.

BARY: -- to do that, but that's also been a terrific initiative. There are just so many different pieces and different ways people can be involved and find -- find something that they en-- that they enjoy in the Synagogue. And then there's also many people who barely have time to do anything 'cause -- especially people with, uh, young kids --

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: -- who are very, very busy. But there's lots of family activities. M-- much more than when my kids were little. I mean, we had a Purim party, but there -- those keep growing. I c-- especially now that there's a -- a pre-school.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: You know, there's a book fair, there's a Chanukah concert. There's just -- and there's a weekly program for families to celebrate Shabbat with a rabbi.

SULLIVAN: Mhm. And does that happen -- does that happen in the Synagogue space, the --

BARY: Yeah. It's really amazing how many things go on in that building at one time --

SULLIVAN: Yeah.

BARY: Throughout the day. Yeah. Yeah, the spaces have to be multi-purpose 'cause [laughter]

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: Um, the arts committee used to meet downstairs in the, uh, conference room. There was a big table. But often now when we come there's some other meeting going on in class and we keep getting bumped up to the third floor and we're sitting around, uh, with -- you know, in the classroom, although they do set up adult folding chairs for us.

SULLIVAN: [laughter]

BARY: But we're in one of the pre-school classrooms when we meet now. Yeah.

SULLIVAN: Um, and this you've also answered. You've mentioned some people. Are there other, um, really key, central people, leaders, friends, family in the 93:00Synagogue that we haven't talked about?

BARY: [whispered] Central people. Um --

SULLIVAN: In your experience. You know, people --

BARY: In my experience. Um, the presidents of the Congregation have been really hardworking and really important and I've known all of them well in recent years. Barbara Deinhardt, uh, was one of my bat mitzvah groups so I'm --

SULLIVAN: Ah.

BARY: -- I knew her well when she took that role. Harry, I -- I know very well because his wife, Babette, is on the arts committee with me and is the chair of the arts committee. So I've been working with her closely for over 10 years in that committee. Um, the -- the, um-- yeah, the past and -- the thing is, we kind of have this nice little cycle. You're not president for too long because it's a very hard job but before you become president and after you continue to work, so 94:00we have a very strong, strong leadership and -- working hand-in-hand with the rabbi. Another thing I was going to mention is that -- this is something I haven't been able to participate in but I'm really interested in, is the rabbis had these, uh, different events to show support of Muslim groups in -- in our local community. Uh, not just the greater world but getting together with different religious leaders here, Christian and Muslim, and done forums and done -- and this is often in the summer when I haven't been around but done an exchange where we get together for some kind of, uh, prayer and discussion or lectures, talks, a variety of things. Meals. But he's, uh, really taken initiative in doing more of that building bridges to, uh, other religious groups 95:00which I think is so essential in our world today and to survive as a Jewish community we have to, you know. [laughter] We have to reach out to other thoughtful people in communities and build, you know, field it where -- we're here to work together.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: You know, that we have a common agenda, and -- and he's really, uh, tried to -- tried to lead us in that direction.

SULLIVAN: Mhm. Let's see. Um, did you know this -- I think you must have been too little, but did you hear stories of Belle and Bob Huffman, the founders?

BARY: Yeah, but I really don't know --

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: You know, I saw Belle at the Synagogue for -- for many years. As I came as an adult she was still there --

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: Um, but I -- I have nothing to really add to the -- to that.

SULLIVAN: Is that -- is there, um, are -- is -- is their memory still that of -- of the founding couple or was it more of a group, just in terms of the Synagogue's mem-- collective memory?

BARY: I think because they stayed around so long --

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: -- I think there were others but they might not have stayed in the area so -- and didn't necessarily stay affiliated with the synagogue, so they weren't as-- as central.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: But you know, as -- as, uh, we celebrated the anniversary. Stories were brought up and shared specifically around -- around Belle and --

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: They're -- they're starting in their living room. But that pre-dated my 97:00parents' knowledge of the -- the Synagogue. Yeah, I was trying to find out which people my parents knew early on, and they had a few, but they knew people in the community. And then, of course, uh, because my father practiced medicine right here, he always had patients who were part of the Congregation, so whenever I went to Synagogue with my father, uh, people would come up and greet him, "Dr. Wagner". And, and, uh, they'd always ask me if I was going to be a doctor like my father when I grew up. [laughter]

SULLIVAN: [laughter] Oh, you spoke to this already too about, um, connections to other religious institutions and organizations. Um, what about other Jewish organizations, um, does BHS in your experience have connections --

BARY: Well, we're -- a member of the Union Reform Synagogues, whatever the, uh, the letters are.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: But it -- I haven't experienced any of -- you know, our students go off to a leadership conference. I know my kids were invited [inaudible] attend. I would have liked them to do that. I thought that was a nice opportunity in high school, but I personally haven't taken part in any --

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: -- any kind of connection with a larger organization. And there's sometimes some events for brownstone Brooklyn, also --

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: We'll get together with the other -- I'm trying to think -- what in particular -- anyway, there have been some, but I haven't really been part of -- part of that kind of network.

SULLIVAN: Mhm. Um --

BARY: [cough]

SULLIVAN: Is there -- and I feel like we've touched on this, also, but is there a moment that stands out to you where you felt most connected to the Synagogue?

BARY: Hmm. Not really a moment but I definitely felt more connected when my kids were there and in the religious school program than I am now. I feel like I'm barely there. I don't have -- I don't allow a lot of time for it just 'cause I'm so busy with different activities, although there's a lot that I -- if I had the time or wanted more activities there are things that I would enjoy doing there. 100:00Different courses and meetings and other things as well.

SULLIVAN: Do you go to services regularly still?

BARY: Very rarely.

SULLIVAN: Mhm. Mhm.

BARY: Yeah. And my biggest connection is through the -- when the choir meets and through the arts committee.

SULLIVAN: Mhm. Mhm.

BARY: Yeah.

SULLIVAN: Um, is there -- is there a moment in your experience of the Synagogue that being part of the community was challenging?

BARY: Not that I can think of.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: Yeah. Another thing that we have at the Synagogue is, uh, the Hasid Caring Committee which has developed over the years and that's also -- over the more recent years but over the last 15 certainly, and uh, and we lost both my in-laws 101:00a number of years ago and the -- you know, we have a support network because we have a lot of family and friends, but the Synagogue really comes through in all those times, and that was -- that was just very meaningful. People we -- some people we knew, some people we hardly knew who came to our home and came for shiva and brought a service into our home, and that was really appreciated and we were very -- you know, very grateful at that time, and many of our generation are going through loss of parents in these -- in these years, so we've also gone to other homes in the community. And it's -- being part of the Synagogue is the -- the institution that connects us most with our neighborhood.

SULLIVAN: Mmh.

BARY: So, when we walk around we see people we know from the Synagogue.

SULLIVAN: Mhm. And has the neighborhood changed a lot since you've lived here?

BARY: Yeah. Well, it's become much more a business professions in banking and law and Wall Street and, um, and the people who were here when I was growing up were, as I mentioned before, my par-- the parents of my friends were teachers and artists and other assorted professions but not -- uh, not such high -- it was just a more relaxed and, uh, very liberal -- liberal-minded, very political community, I think more so than -- than now, and I think there are still people 103:00who are very politically active, but there's large numbers of people who -- have moved in and don't have much connection in that way. You know, it's a place they come home to.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: Yeah, and of course, there were some working mothers, but mothers were much more present in their kids' lives than when I -- when my children were born, and a lot of women were working and had babysitters, and that's continued even more so now. So that's a -- that's a big difference in terms of who's on the street day to day.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: It's interesting. Some of the people who were still really active in Brooklyn Heights Association and in the Brooklyn Bridge Park are still people 104:00that my mother knew from when I was growing up.

SULLIVAN: Oh.

BARY: The older generation is still very active in local institutions here.

SULLIVAN: Mhm. And less so, you think, in younger generations?

BARY: Well, I'm sure there are some, but my --

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: You know, my mother's often mentioning the name of this person or --

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: -- that. There are still lots of people around who, uh, were here when I was a kid. They all take James' exercise class at the Eastern Athletic Club with my mother.

SULLIVAN: [laughter]

BARY: She sees everyone when she goes to the gym.

SULLIVAN: Oh, that's so cool. Um, as a final question, it's a big one, how has being a member of BHS affected your life?

BARY: Well, it's just definitely given me an ongoing connection to a Jewish 105:00community and ownership of my Judaism and something that, even though I don't feel that I'm very observant in my personal life, it's -- it's a big part of my identity.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: And, uh, yeah. And it's a community of people that I really enjoy being part of, and they're very -- I have to say, a really smart, active group of people. Very stimulating.

SULLIVAN: Mhm.

BARY: It's not people who come to look for someone to give them a religious experience. It's people who are really, uh, active in taking charge of their own life and want to create community for themselves and for their family.

SULLIVAN: Thank you. Um, is there anything that I didn't ask about that you think that I should?

BARY: Nothing else that comes to mind. Yeah.

SULLIVAN: All right. Well, thank you very much. I think this is a really great inter--