Shirleyann Dramer

KIM DRAMER: He was in Harlem.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: No, he was in Harlem.

KIM DRAMER: Harlem.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Harlem.

KIM DRAMER: My father shipped out from Harlem once.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yes. Because I went aboard the Santa Isabel.

KIM DRAMER: Santa Isabel, yes.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And I took the train to Harlem. And for a white girl to go to Harlem, to the waterfront, was not a good idea.

KIM DRAMER: Nobody bugged you, right?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: They whistled.

SADY SULLIVAN: What year was that?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: But nobody bothered me.

SADY SULLIVAN: That was during World War II?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah. They didn't bother me.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I don't how the hell I had the nerve to do that.

KIM DRAMER: Here, just so you --

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

KIM DRAMER: That's my dad, actually, in Brooklyn.

SADY SULLIVAN: Ah.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: [laughter]

KIM DRAMER: That's -- that must be on Gates Avenue then.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, wow.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And that fat little thing on the left is me.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter] All right. Well sit where you're, sit where you're comfortable, and I'll adjust the microphones. So, do you want to sit -- would you prefer to sit here and lean back?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Doesn't make any difference. Oh, maybe that would be better, 1:00because the wall would push the, uh, the --

SADY SULLIVAN: Sure, yup, let's do that. I'll move this for the minute and you can --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: The, the wall, uh, pushes the sound forward.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yup, that's a good point.

KIM DRAMER: Ma, I'm going to leave these glasses here, so that in case we decide to have another drink, we don't end up washing twice.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I put 'em in the dishwasher.

KIM DRAMER: Uh, oh.

BROOKE DRAMER: I'm trying to be ecologically responsible here when we eat, I, uh --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Well, that's true. I lost a few in the dishwasher. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: So the microphones are really sensitive. You can sit back and, and, and get comfortable.

KIM DRAMER: Do you want sit over there, listen, just listen?

ALEXANDRA WANG: Show me --

KIM DRAMER: No?

ALEXANDRA WANG: -- cause I want to be walking around, can't go to the bathroom--

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: My problem is my hearing is going in one ear.

SADY SULLIVAN: Okay.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: One ear. Speak to -- speak to me clear.

ALEXANDRA WANG: All right, so do not walk at all, right?

SADY SULLIVAN: And I'll speak loudly.

ALEXANDRA WANG: Mom.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah.

ALEXANDRA WANG: Because I can't talk at all, right.

KIM DRAMER: No, don't talk at all. No flushing toilets.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: No, it's not necessary.

ALEXANDRA WANG: Could I walk around?

KIM DRAMER: You could walk around, but just listen, it'll be fun. And this way 2:00you can -- you can write this up for your -- you know, your history project.

ALEXANDRA WANG: I already have a thing -- never mind.

KIM DRAMER: Okay.

SADY SULLIVAN: Okay, so will you just, uh, count to five, so I can test that these are both working?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: In this -- in this one?

SADY SULLIVAN: Um, you can just talk to me.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Oh, because between.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: One, two, three, four, five. I have a low voice.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm. It sounds good though. All right.

KIM DRAMER: Rolos! That would be ---

SADY SULLIVAN: So --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I didn't --

SADY SULLIVAN: -- so --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I didn't really realize I had so many pictures.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah, well, we'll have -- let's look at those when -- when they come up at all.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: They are not -- they're -- they're not meaningful to this, I don't --

SADY SULLIVAN: But it will be good -- so let me tell you the -- the plan for the -- the interview.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Okay.

SADY SULLIVAN: Um, we'll -- we do like a life history approach. So we'll start 3:00from when you were born, and, you know, tell me some stuff about your parents, grandparents, childhood. And then when you got to the Navy Yard-- or to the, um, ambulance driving. And then we'll talk about that time in more detail. And then do a sort of quick summary afterwards.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: You really think I'm going to remember? [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: You'll be surprised. You'll be surprised. And if you don't remember like names or dates, that stuff is fine.

ALEXANDRA WANG: Yeah.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah, I'll -- I --

ALEXANDRA WANG: Excuse me for a sec, sorry.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: No, I do, I remember --

ALEXANDRA WANG: Are we going to talk about how you guys tricked your French teacher?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: What?

ALEXANDRA WANG: Are you going to talk about how you and your classmates tricked your French teacher to going into the Brooklyn Navy Yard?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I didn't do that.

ALEXANDRA WANG: It was your classmates.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And I'm trying to think of the -- the -- the boy's name who did.

KIM DRAMER: Vic--

ALEXANDRA WANG: Victor!

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: What?

ALEXANDRA WANG: Victor.

KIM DRAMER: Victor.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: No.

ALEXANDRA WANG: Then who was it?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I see his face; I don't remember his name. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: But what happened?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Ah, during the War, we, uh -- when war just really started, 4:00we were seniors in high school. And, uh -- well the first thing I remember about, uh, about the War is, we were on a hike across the, um, George Washington Bridge, uh -- wha, what's that -- the -- the --

KIM DRAMER: The Palisades.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: The Palisades. And we were walking back across the George Washington Bridge to take the -- the subway back to Brooklyn.

KIM DRAMER: The A Train.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And people were driving across the bridge blowing their horns. And the boy -- we had -- well, there were boys and girls. And they, and they -- we asked, "Well, why are you blowing thoe?" And they said, "We're at war."

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: They, uh, eh, um, ah -- the Japs, uh, er, were at Pe-- Pearl Harbor, and everybody said, "Where's Pearl Harbor?" Nobody knew. And that's -- 5:00and all the boys got very quiet. Because they were all seventeen years old. Seventeen going on eighteen, which means that they would have been, uh, drafted.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: If their number was called.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: For example, my husband spent four years in the Army, between eighteen and twenty-two.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Now that -- that's when you grow up. Right?

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: That's exactly when you grow up, and know what you want to do for the rest of your life.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And he was, um, a lab technician aboard a hospital ship.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: The Santa Isabel. And when he finally got out of the Army, uh, he should have been a doctor. But he said he didn't want to have anything to 6:00do with blood and guts again. Which made sense.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm, that's understandable.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm. So let's start -- let's start from the -- we'll -- we'll officially start now. And for -- for the transcript, um --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Um, I was born in Brooklyn. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, let me -- let me -- we'll get to that in one second. Let me just say for the -- for the archival record, um, that today is May 1, 2009, and I'm Sady Sullivan with the Brooklyn Historical Society. This is an interview for the Brooklyn Navy Yard Oral History Project, and I am here in Merrick, Long Island with Shirleyann Dramer. Um, and if you would introduce yourself to the recording. So say your name --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: My name is -- well, my maiden name is Mansdorf. I'm Shirleyann Mansdorf Dramer. I was born in Brooklyn. Uh, my grandparents lived in 7:00Brooklyn on, uh, Eastern Parkway. And I used to go horseback riding across from their house, because they had a equestrian -- uh, I guess it was just -- it wa-- it was a -- in between -- I, uh, eh -- roads, and it was all dirt, and we rode horses.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh. Neat.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: On Ocean Parkway.

SADY SULLIVAN: Neat. I want to get -- hear more about that. Let me just get these details out of the way. How do you spell your maiden name?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: M-A-N-S-D-O-R-F.

SADY SULLIVAN: Okay, I want to -- and -- and so that the transcriptionist can recognize other voices, will you introduce yourself.

KIM DRAMER: I'm Shirleyann Dramer's younger daughter, my name is Kim Dramer, and I'm here with my daughter --

ALEXANDRA WANG: Alexandra Wang.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: [laughter]

KIM DRAMER: And tell them how old you are.

ALEXANDRA WANG: I'm sixteen years old.

KIM DRAMER: And where you were born.

ALEXANDRA WANG: I was born in New York City.

SADY SULLIVAN: Great.

KIM DRAMER: So three generations of fabulous looking New York women.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wonderful.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: What I remember most about my childhood was the Depression.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mmmmmm. What year -- what's your birth date?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I was born in 1925.

SADY SULLIVAN: Uh huh.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And every Friday we used to go to my grandparents' house for dinner, on Ocean Parkway.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Ah -- was that Ocean Parkway or Eastern Parkway? It was Ocean Parkway.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And, um, after dinner, my grandfather -- my -- my grandmother gave my grandfather a bunch of envelopes with names on them. And my grandfather took money out of his inside pocket and put money in each of these envelopes. And they never said what they were, and when you asked, the -- they said, "We're 9:00just putting money in -- in the envelopes." They never told us that they were giving them to relatives who needed money to eat.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: So we, we don't have that here.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: At least I hope we never have it here.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: But that -- that was true.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm. So tell me more about your grandparents. Were they born in Brooklyn?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: No. My mo -- grandparents were born in Russia.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Uh... My mother was a year old when she came here. She was the oldest child.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And then there was, um, one girl and two boys after that. And, and it was a -- my grandfather was very well off.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: He was in, um -- he -- well, now I know he did -- didn't sell houses.

KIM DRAMER: Real estate.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: He was in real estate.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Look, I'm looking for words. Isn't that interesting? Uh, words that come to me all the time don't come to me know. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: I know, I know.

KIM DRAMER: Why don't you take the photograph --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Oh yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: So was -- were they well off in Russia before they came to Brooklyn, or did he sort of make his way once he got here?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: He made it here.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: He was a, um -- well he put horse, horseshoes on -- on -- what do they call? The horseshoes on -- on -- on --

KIM DRAMER: A blacksmith.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: A what?

KIM DRAMER: Blacksmith. Blacksmith!

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Blacksmith.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: See. [laughter] That ear! [laughter] It was a blacksmith.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And, if you look at him, he looks like Joseph Stalin. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, wow, that mustache.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: They all wore mustaches at that time.

KIM DRAMER: Oh here it is.

SADY SULLIVAN: Right. Right.

KIM DRAMER: Here. Here's the picture.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And my grandmother had red hair --

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: -- and blue eyes.

SADY SULLIVAN: And so they were married before -- they were married in Russia.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yes.

SADY SULLIVAN: Okay. And they came together.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: They came together. Yeah. They came, uh... No, as a matter of fact, my grandfather came first.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Then he sent for my grandmother. And I think that was the way they did that.

SADY SULLIVAN: Right.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: Right. Do you know why they were leaving Russia?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Prejudice I would assume. They were Jewish.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm. Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And, uh, my grandfather was very -- very smart, and, uh, cultured. Very cultured. In music, in art. Uh, my mother's sister was an artist, so her younger sister was an artist. And they were very musical. Ve-- very cultured people. R-- r-- constantly read. English, Russian. [laughter] Uh, my -- 12:00my, uh -- my mother was very smart also. And my -- her brother was a stock broker. Which is very unusual. He was born in this country, and he was this, uh... I think when my mother was three years old, he was born, and he became a stock broker. And he died young. He died of a strep throat.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Which, in those days, was not unusual. Because we didn't have any antibiotics.

SADY SULLIVAN: That's right.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Now we can take care of that. Maybe not Swine Flu, but -- [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm. [laughter]

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: So far we haven't decided what kind of Swine Flu we have. Okay. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: That's true. [laughter]. Um--

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: But I was brought up in -- in, uh, in Brooklyn, and lived near, um, Ebbets Field.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And -- and the Botanical Gardens.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And Prospect Park, which was a nice place to live.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And every Sunday, uh -- I think his name was Goldman, had, uh, had a concert in Prospect Park.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: They had a -- in a -- like we saw in the -- in the movies. [laughter] They had a big bandstand at one time near the, um -- near the lake.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And everybody -- there were benches around, and we all sat around and listened to -- I believe his name was Goldman. Goldman's Band. I could be wrong, but I think that's it.

SADY SULLIVAN: Ah. So were your -- your mom's grandparents -- I mean your mom's parents lived on Ocean Parkway.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: And where was your -- where were your father's parents?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: My father didn't come here till he was -- ah, he -- til World 14:00War I.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: He fought on this side, on the American side.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: However, he had two brothers who fought on the German side.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm. So where is your father --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: My -- my father came from Germany.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh. Um, and so he -- did you know your grandparents on your father's side?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: No.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: No. I knew, uh -- I knew only three of his brothers.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And interesting enough, they, um -- one of his brothers moved to California, and his sons, my cous-- my first cousins, built airplanes for World War II.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: One was the -- called the Pregnant Guppy.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And it was called the Pregnant Guppy because, uh, that was 15:00where they got to ship all the, um, munitions and the cars, et cetera. It had a b -- had a big fat belly that they could put all that stuff in.

SADY SULLIVAN: I like that name.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah, Pregnant Guppy -- I -- what's interesting, um, I guess it's about four years ago they opened a museum, uh, in -- in air -- air -- by airplane museum --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: -- in, uh -- I uh -- I don't know exactly where it is, it's in the park here. And, uh, they had a --

KIM DRAMER: Mit -- Mitchel Field?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: -- slide show on the Pregnant Guppy.

SADY SULLIVAN: They had -- they had --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah, they knew what the Pregnant Guppy was.

KIM DRAMER: Mitchel Field, mom?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: It was -- it was Mitchel Field. And it's called something else now. That's the problem, they keep changing the name on me, and I don't remember.

KIM DRAMER: That's where Lucky Lindy took off from, Mitchel Field.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: But it would -- they have, um, the, um, planes hanging from the ceiling that were World War II planes. And they had, uh, where, um, Lindberg flew, which was Mitchel Field also.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: There's also a lot of, uh -- a lot of things happened on Long Island.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm. Mm hm. So why did your father decide to fight for the Americans in World War I?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: He never told me. [laughter] But I think he had to. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm. Oh, what do you mean?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: When -- if you were of age, you were drafted.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And he must have been of aged.

SADY SULLIVAN: So he was already in the States.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: No, his brothers brought him here. His older brothers were here, and, uh, one brother brought the next brother, and my father was the youngest.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mmmmmm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And I think that's the way it was done.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm. Why did the -- why did the first brother move to the United States?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I guess prejudice again.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: They lived in Germany. The -- there wa-- a town that -- it no longer exists. And ... well juh, juh, juh-- As I said, my cousins built the airplanes for World War II. And he lived next door -- not, not my -- their father, my fa-- my father's brother and his wife lived next door to Eddie Cantor. I remember that. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I remember that.

SADY SULLIVAN: Neat.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And the boys were all in the airplane business.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: First they started, um -- they started the airplane business, 18:00uh, by rescuing crashed planes and putting them back together again.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And then World War II happened, and then they went on from there.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: It was interesting.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm. So how did your --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: They were all -- they were -- they were engineers, of course.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: So what?

SADY SULLIVAN: How did your mom and dad meet?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: My grandfather owned a lot of real estate.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: One of the things he owned was a series of garages.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: My father when he came here drove a taxicab, which he kept in one of my father's garage -- my grandfather's garages. My mother was the bookkeeper for my grandfather. And that's how they met.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh. And did your -- did your grandfather like your father --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: No.

SADY SULLIVAN: -- for his daughter?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: No.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, why not?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: My grandparents are very cultured.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: My father was not. And, for example, my mother took piano lessons for fourteen years. [laughter] My fa-- I never heard, ah, classical music played in our house til I decided I liked it.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: My mother never played it; my father never played it.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And it must have been because my father didn't want my mother to play it.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

KIM DRAMER: Didn't you tell me you bought a record and he called it "scripadica [phonetic] music?"

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yes, yes. He didn't like mu-- he didn't -- he didn't like classical music. Which is unusual, because the rest of the family loved it. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm. Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: But as I say, my mother was cultured, my father was not. My mother read a great deal. My father read the newspaper, period.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And if you gave him a book, he said, "Oh, a book. I might get to read it." [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Well, you remember, it was -- was -- you remember your grandfather.

KIM DRAMER: That's one of his more clever lines. "Oh, I'm gonna read it." [laughter]

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: He was good looking though.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

KIM DRAMER: And I certainly remember his favorite piece of music, which was the only thing I ever heard him sing, was "Yes, we have no bananas."

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah.

KIM DRAMER: That I remember.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: My f-- it's funny, my father had --

KIM DRAMER: A tin ear.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: -- blonde curly hair, and gray-green eyes. Nobody has that. What was -- what color was, were Stanton's eyes? Were they kind of --

ALEXANDRA WANG: Green.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Kind of gray-green?

ALEXANDRA WANG: Gray, yeah.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah. And brother -- well, their brother got it. Their brother got the b, b, the colored eyes. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: They got brown hair and brown eyes.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: That's the way it works. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: So where did your parents, um, move when they -- when they got married? Where were they living?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: East New York, as I remember. I don't remember.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: But I was born in East New York, so I -- I assume that's where they lived.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And then, eventually they moved, uh -- what -- what -- what was the name?

KIM DRAMER: Gates. Gates Avenue.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: No. What?

KIM DRAMER: Gates Avenue? Lincoln Road?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Possibly. I remember the Ga -- the name Gates Avenue. But I'm talking about, uh, later. Where did -- they lived on the water.

BROOKE DRAMER: Oh, Neponset.

KIM DRAMER: Neponset.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Neponset.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

BROOKE DRAMER: Yeah, but I -- I visit -- I visited when I was -- when I was small they lived on Lincoln Road just on the other side of the park. On Prospect Park.

KIM DRAMER: 145 Lincoln Road.

BROOKE DRAMER: Yes.

KIM DRAMER: Between Bedford and Flatbush.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: They eventually they moved to Neponset.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm. Will you, um, introduce yourself to the recording, so when we transcribe--

BROOKE DRAMER: Oh, um, ahem, I'm Brooke Dramer, and I'm, uh, Shirley's, uh, 22:00oldest daughter. And I just remember visiting my grandparents, ahem, in Brooklyn. Uh, they lived on one side, very close to Prospect Park, very near the entrance to the zoo. At 145 Lincoln Road.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. Near Prospect Park.

BROOKE DRAMER: Yes.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah.

BROOKE DRAMER: Yeah.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Because that's where I was brought up.

BROOKE DRAMER: Yes.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Prospect Park.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm. Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah. Near the zoo? [laughter] Yes, there had -- they had a zoo there. [laughter]

BROOKE DRAMER: And that's when -- that's when --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: One side was the zoo, and the other side was the botanical gardens.

BROOKE DRAMER: I was very impressed with that, that we could walk from their house to the zoo.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: [laughter] Well, uh --

KIM DRAMER: I remember too --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I don't even know if they have the zoo there anymore.

BROOKE DRAMER: Yes, it -- it is --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: They do?

KIM DRAMER: They do?

BROOKE DRAMER: -- in a modified form. They no longer have, uh, lions and tigers and bears, but they have, um, smaller animals.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Oh.

BROOKE DRAMER: It's a -- a nature center, I think it's --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Oh, it's a nature center.

BROOKE DRAMER: Right.

KIM DRAMER: I also remember the, uh, Hassidim there, the boys with their curls.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah. But anyway.

BROOKE DRAMER: Mm hm.

KIM DRAMER: And the way they used to throw stones at the car on Shabbas.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Brooklyn was very nice at that time. We -- we had Sutter Bakeries, which were very good. The schools were very good.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I went to PS206 --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: -- and --

SADY SULLIVAN: Where was that?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: -- it was a very good school. In Brooklyn.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Uh, I went to James Madison High School.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Even though I didn't live close to it. But I started there, and I -- and I finished there.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm. Why that high school?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: It was a very good high school.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: A bunch of -- uh, uh, uh, it was really a great high school. Uh, we had all kinds of things that we do, uh -- squads, we -- we, uh -- we, um, 24:00did all kinds of, uh, science experiments. A -- a lot of the, uh, men who helped in the science labs and so on, they weren't teachers. But they were men who would -- who intended to become, uh, doctors, but they couldn't finish because they couldn't pay for it.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Don't forget, it was -- it was the -- the Depression.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: So a lot of very, very smart -- they were a bunch of very smart men, I remember, and, uh, with a very good background of science. And they were very helpful.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And we had a lot of, uh, oh, a lot of science, a lot of art. It was just a very good high school.

SADY SULLIVAN: And who was -- who was the -- the community of the high school, what was the background of the students mostly?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: The background. They were -- they -- their parents were all businessmen, as far as I remember. They were not poor, but they were not well off.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: They were very -- very middle class.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: We didn't go to camp. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: So we all joined in, uh, clubs and we went hiking. [laughter] And that's how we -- we used to go walk across the George Washington Bridge. Because you could take the subway to the Geo -- the George Washington Bridge, and then walk over the bridge and you'd be in the country.

SADY SULLIVAN: That sounds great. So who would lead these hiking clubs?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Nobody. We just were a group.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, just all students, all kids.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah, we -- we were a group of -- no adults, as I -- as I remember in the -- uh, I don't think we ever had an adult.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, wow.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And, uh, if you went to the Palisades you -- you could cook. They had -- uh, you could make fires and you could cook. And they also had different kinds of snakes. [laughter] And eventually years later we moved to Nyack, which is right near there.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

BROOKE DRAMER: I only heard one -- I'm going to interrupt, uh--

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: What?

BROOKE DRAMER: Daddy only said one snake story. He said they were in the Palisades when he was a teenager, and they killed, um, a rattlesnake.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah.

BROOKE DRAMER: And rolled it in corn meal and cooked it, and no one wanted to say they didn't like it. They said, "Oh, this is really good, yeah." [laughter] And you still have to watch out on the Palisades. They tell you not to put your feet on the --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Palisades is --

BROOKE DRAMER: -- you know, hole in the rocks, yeah.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: -- still the same. 9W goes all along the Palisades.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And it's still as nice as ever.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: We were there, uh, not too long, but last year, was it last --

KIM DRAMER: Yeah.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Or the year before. I mean, we went to the Bully Boy.

KIM DRAMER: Yeah, it was very nice.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah. It's still as nice as ever. But that's also, um --

KIM DRAMER: Bear Mountain?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Revolution country.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And it's very -- very much the same. The little towns there are very much the same.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Nyack is -- is an old town. It was very nice. Um, we lived a block away from Helen Hayes. [laughter] Ha cha cha.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And with her -- we, we, we knew her children. Actually we only knew Jamie. We didn't know the daughter. Her daughter, as I remember, of, uh, polio.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: As I remember it. And, uh, I remember watching Jamie on 28:00television during Eisenhower's inaugural. Uh, they had him on television, where he had his thumbs in his ears, and he wiggled his hands. [laughter] And he was with his friend, who was named Footy Glenn [phonetic], because his father owned a shoe store. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter] Oh, that's cute. [laughter[

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And that's how we -- we saw them on television.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: It was a nice town. I'm sorry -- I've always been sorry we moved.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm. Mm hm. So, did you -- when you went to James Madison, um, did you stay friendly with kids in the neighborhood also?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah. Uh, yes. I went to high school with my husband.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: We were just fri -- we just knew each other. [laughter]

KIM DRAMER: I heard he was a nerd.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: No he wasn't. [laughter]

KIM DRAMER: Yes he was. Even he told me he was a nerd. He was the head of the debating team, he carried a briefcase. That's pretty nerdy, ma. He wore a rust-colored sweater every day.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: That's true. That's true. That's true.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: But we -- we -- we just -- we were friends. In those days, you didn't have boyfriends or girlfriends, you had friends.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Nobody was paired off, where you are today.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Which was, uh, I think because we were kind of, uh-- more -- more unsophisticated than you are today.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: We didn't know much. [laughter] We were not exposed to that 30:00kind of -- very much.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: It was a very few of us went to camp. I didn't go to camp till I became a counselor. And I became the, uh, what do you call it? Uh, mature counselor.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh. What -- what camp?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Wither Wind. [laughter] I remember that.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah. Where is it?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I think -- I -- really, I think it was in Pennsylvania. I'm not sure.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: But I was the nature counselor. I was always interested in, uh, plants and flowers and animals.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And that's about it.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Like every -- like every other kid.

SADY SULLIVAN: So -- so let's go back to the -- when you -- you found out that, um, the United States had entered World War II.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yes. That, as I said, I found that out on the George 31:00Washington Bridge.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Coming back from a hike.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And as I said, all the boys became very quiet. Because they were all -- they were seventeen, going on eighteen. And the next year they were all in the Army.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Because they graduated from high school, and most of them, uh -- was con-- well, I -- they -- what'd they --

KIM DRAMER: Drafted.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: They were drafted.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And we -- everybody wrote to each other. And we baked cookies, and we sent -- we sent packages all the time. And I think I still have an airmail. You know what an airmail is?

SADY SULLIVAN: An e-mail -- no, I don't know what you mean.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: During the War, if a soldier wrote a letter, they didn't send the letter, the photographed it and reduced it to a piece of paper like this. I think I have one.

SADY SULLIVAN: Whoa. Why did they do that?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Otherwise there'd be tons and tons of mail!

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: It was heavy.

SADY SULLIVAN: Right, right.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: So they -- they -- they -- they reduced it to one sheet of paper.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And I'll -- I'll show you one.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And that's what we got, we got airmails. And it was on -- as I remember, it was on khaki-colored paper. I -- I think, uh -- I think I still have one.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow.

KIM DRAMER: I saw one that --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: It's in the green --

KIM DRAMER: Yeah. The green chest?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah.

KIM DRAMER: You -- daddy sent you one and it was censored.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: What?

KIM DRAMER: It was censored.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yes.

KIM DRAMER: He said in it --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: They were censored.

KIM DRAMER: -- they -- we are meeting --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: They were censored before they were, were pushed -- um, made 33:00smaller. Get -- take the two drawers out.

ALEXANDRA WANG: Okay.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I think I saved one.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm. So what was your -- the -- all the boys were worried about being drafted. As a -- as a girl, as a woman, what was your feeling about the War?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Oh. At that time, I went -- I went right into college. And, uh... We did -- they did a lot of things, we collected money, uh, we, we wrote letters. And, uh, the one who organized us was, um, Roosevelt's wife.

SADY SULLIVAN: Eleanor Roosevelt?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Eleanor Roosevelt --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: -- was a great organizer at that particular time, to send letters to soldiers, and help, that kind of thing. And at that time my mother 34:00began to drive an ambulance. And I went with her. And she had a, a -- a friend Kathleen. I don't remember Kathleen's last name, uh, but she and my mother drove the ambulance. And they drove it to the Brooklyn Navy Yard, where mostly British ships came in. The British ships came in, ah, with wounded. And when you saw the British sailors, you couldn't tell what color they were, because they were covered with oil.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: They, well -- you didn't realize it until you could smell it. You could smell the oil. Because a lot of them were torpedoed. And what they like us -- liked us to bring -- and my mother used to get boxes of it -- um, something called Charms, which were, uh, hard candies. Because they could -- it 35:00would take the taste of the oil out of their mouth.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And chewing gum. They'd do any -- that's -- that's why they liked chewing gum. I -- I don't know why -- eh, soldiers liked chewing gum too, but I think it -- it -- it kept them busy or something.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: But I remember they, they -- the -- it was the Charms. And I remember go, going -- after the War were in, um, Bermuda. And I remember the tall ships coming in. They came into Bermuda. This was after the War. And you were allowed to go aboard the ship. And what was interesting to me is, uh, when we passed the ships on the water, we saw women through the portholes. But when you went aboard the ship, you never saw a woman on deck.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm. So who were these women?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: They were the -- obviously sailors [inaudible] onboard the ship.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: It's a little -- Kim, it's a li-- it's a little, li -- in an envelope. No, get the other box.

KIM DRAMER: Okay.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Gimme one box and you take the other box. And I'll look through that. Because I'll -- I'll be able to see it more than you -- faster than you can. Oh. Oh, this is -- this is the one I was talking about who built airplanes.

SADY SULLIVAN: Ah. Fred Mansdorf.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Here's another, same -- I don't know why I saved it, but I have it, heh.

KIM DRAMER: Look mom, here's that map of the Brooklyn Navy Yard that Willie --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: What?

KIM DRAMER: Here's some, uh, papers that Willie made for you.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Oh, the Brooklyn Navy Yard. [laughter]

KIM DRAMER: It has the exact addresses of your grandparents' house too.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow. This is neat. Oh, I see, I was trying to get my bearings 38:00here. So this has Flushing Ave. and Navy Street. And, oh, lot's of -- do you know where this -- where did this come from?

KIM DRAMER: Willamina.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I have no idea. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, okay.

KIM DRAMER: Here's your birth certificate, mom.

SADY SULLIVAN: So Willamina Kelly --

KIM DRAMER: Well, it says you're a white girl.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

KIM DRAMER: Bedford Maternity, 254 Montgomery Street, Brooklyn, New York. That's where you were born.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Now I know I had that. Isn't that interesting, I don't even see it. Because I know I saved it.

KIM DRAMER: And your mother's residence is 1478 East Eighth Street.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: These are just old passports. I was not much of a saver, which is, heh -- but that was interesting, that's why I'm -- I'm looking for it.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: You don't see one there?

KIM DRAMER: No, sorry. But I'll pass it over to you. Here's your birth certificate, mom.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Huh. Yeah, I -- that I knew I had. That's really too bad. The -- this is interesting.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, wow.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: One is my mother.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow. And was it -- was it originally printed on cloth like this?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yes. Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: That's so great.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: If you hold -- if you hold it up -- hold it up to the light, and you'll -- you can see it better.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh my goodness. That's such a wonderful --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: That's my mother, and her cousin, and, uh, my mother's sister, my Aunt Edna.

SADY SULLIVAN: So which person is your mother, the one --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: The one -- the tall one.

SADY SULLIVAN: On the right. Wow, that's beautiful. This is for the recording, I'm looking at a photograph, a black and white photograph printed on cloth, of three girls.

BROOKE DRAMER: Let me see, because I haven't seen it.

SADY SULLIVAN: That's beautiful.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: It's not in there, Kim?

KIM DRAMER: I'm looking, I'm looking.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Oh. This is from World War II.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: [laughter]

BROOKE DRAMER: Oh my goodness, that's Hanna.

KIM DRAMER: Yeah.

BROOKE DRAMER: Whoa! Because grandma always said that she and Hanna were like sisters when they were children. She'd say, and then Hanna got married and moved to Connecticut, and they didn't see much of each other.

SADY SULLIVAN: So the little girl in that photo is Hanna?

BROOKE DRAMER: No, the, um -- Hanna is the one who's, uh, over here with the big bow in her hair.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: They've -- it's got to be in there because there's -- also there was a ration book.

BROOKE DRAMER: Um, no, this is, um --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: What is this, Kim? Can this -- did this belong to your father.

BROOKE DRAMER: This is my mother's father, it's Gene.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

BROOKE DRAMER: Um, this is her smaller sister, Esther.

KIM DRAMER: Service unit.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

BROOKE DRAMER: And this is, um --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: That's her cousin.

BROOKE DRAMER: -- her cousin Hanna.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, okay. What is this poster?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: What?

SADY SULLIVAN: Tell me about this poster.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Somebody sent me that. Who does -- who's -- how -- who signed 42:00it? I guess my husband signed it, because that's his -- that's his handwriting.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Isn't that interesting.

SADY SULLIVAN: This is great. So he sent this.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: The thing I -- the thing I wanted to show you I can't find.

KIM DRAMER: Sorry mom, I don't see it.

BROOKE DRAMER: Is it something that dad drew, uh, a wreath with an anchor?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: What?

BROOKE DRAMER: A wreath with an anchor that he drew in ink?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I don't know where that kind of stuff is.

BROOKE DRAMER: [inaudible]

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Brooke, it's -- that's a long time ago.

BROOKE DRAMER: Yeah, um --

KIM DRAMER: Hey, by the way --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: We're talking about over fifty years ago.

KIM DRAMER: Yeah, but I remember just --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I mean, that's not -- that's not like yesterday.

SADY SULLIVAN: I'm just going to move this so I can see we're recording.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: You know that. [laughter] They just happen to be in here 43:00because I don't use anything in the drawers. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I don't use the drawers.

SADY SULLIVAN: Well that's good, they're well preserved, especially that photograph on -- on the cloth.

KIM DRAMER: This must be daddy's. It says --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: None of those people are alive.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

KIM DRAMER: -- "Service and Unity."

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: What?

KIM DRAMER: It says "Service and Unity," and it's got this kind of --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I know. Give me that -- that box.

SADY SULLIVAN: Well, can we -- could we look for it later maybe, so that we can --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah, go ahead. You can -- I can --

SADY SULLIVAN: Because the --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: -- I can talk to you while --

SADY SULLIVAN: Well, because the recording, it makes -- it picks up all the sounds of the paper, so it's hard to --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Oh, oh, okay.

SADY SULLIVAN: It's hard to hear. So I don't want to ask you any questions while we can hear the paper. [laughter]

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Okay. Because that would be an interesting -- there was also a ration -- a ra, ration book.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah. Which I've heard -- I've heard about. What was that -- what was it like to have rations like that?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Not very difficult. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: Really? Why?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: It wa--the, uh, uh -- there was -- wasn't that kind of -- the 44:00only thing that was really ra-- rationed was, uh, gasoline.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: As for food, if you knew somebody you could get it.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Also shoes. Because I remember when I got married, I had to use a -- a, uh, ration coupon to buy my shoes.

SADY SULLIVAN: Why is that? Why would -- why were shoes hard to get?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I don't know. But, but, but com-- maybe leather, I don't know. Maybe because they had to make them for the Army. I have no idea.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: But probably that's, uh -- probably a very simple explanation.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm. Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: But it was a -- we all had a ration book. Wha -- sugar, oil -- cooking oil -- coffee. Not mu -- really not that -- nothing that you, you 45:00could do without.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

KIM DRAMER: Didn't you tell me, when you graduated from James Madison, you got the Biology prize, but there was no medal?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah, so?

KIM DRAMER: They didn't give you a medal, because it was the War.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: No, they didn't give me -- they didn't give me a medal, they gave me a piece of paper. [laughter] Because metal was used for the War.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow. Wow.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And I was supposed to get one years later. I never got it. [laughter] But that -- that's not important.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hmm. Mm hm. So why did you mother start driving an ambulance?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: My mother drove. How many women drove? Not only did she drive, she was a terrific driver.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: She was an excellent driver.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And don't forget, women her age didn't, didn't drive.

SADY SULLIVAN: Right. Yeah.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: But my --

SADY SULLIVAN: How did she learn to drive?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: My -- as a matter of fact, my mother drive hersel-- self to the hospital to -- to deliver me. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter] That's amazing. [laughter]

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yes.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow. So how did she -- how did she learn to drive? Why did she know how to drive?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Her father drove.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: My grandfather owned a car.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: My grandmother did not drive. And my mother's brothers drove. And my father drove. Don't forget, my father was a taxicab driver --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: -- when she met him.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And so, that's how she learned how to drive.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And that's how my father taught me how to drive. Like, "You've been sitting in cars for eighteen years. Drive." [laughter] That's how I learned to drive.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And I am a good driver.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And I can even park cars. I can even park -- [laughter]

KIM DRAMER: That's true.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And I say that because I have friends who think they're wonderful drivers, and they're terrible.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: They're terrible, and they can't -- they couldn't back a car into a space to save their life.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm. Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: But they don't know that they -- that this is something you should know. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter] Mm hm. So how did you mom get the -- the ambulance driving job?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: With her friend Kathleen.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: They volunteered. They, uh, volunteered. First -- first day you volunteered at -- at a hospital, as I remember it.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And then you took a tra-- you took a training course.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I mean, beside CPR, uh, you had to learn how to use what was on the ambulance. And you also had to know how to fix the ambulance if something happened to it.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm. Wow.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: So they -- my mother understood -- understood cars.

BROOKE DRAMER: The ambulance said Methodist [inaudible].

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: She was [inaudible] uniformed.

BROOKE DRAMER: Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: So, yeah, now we're looking at a photo of your mother --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: That's my mother.

SADY SULLIVAN: -- standing in front of the -- the ambulance. And it says, "Methodist."

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I don't know what it says.

BROOKE DRAMER: It says Methodist, from Methodist Hospital.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Methodist Hospital.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm. Mm hm. And so what's that uniform that she's wearing?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: It was khaki.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: It was khaki. The -- the -- and, uh, shows that she'd ta-- had taken the course.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And passed it.

SADY SULLIVAN: So was that -- what organization would've -- would've been giving out the uniforms and doing the course?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I have no idea.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I was a kid.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: All I knew is my mother drove an ambulance with her -- with her friend Kathleen. And I went along many times.

KIM DRAMER: Didn't you say it was the American Red Cross?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Many time-- you know why? Because -- mostly the sailors. Anybody was young, they wanted to talk to. They didn't want to talk to my mother. [laughter] Because that was like their mother. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: I see.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: They wanted to talk to young girls.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: That's what they missed, I think.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm. Mm hm. So you would -- tell me about going -- going along with your mother.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah. And I've forgot -- I've forgotten -- I'd forgotten it was Methodist Hospital. Which I assume is still there.

BROOKE DRAMER: Yeah, it's a block from my house.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah.

KIM DRAMER: But it was the American Red Cross who trained grandma, right?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I don't know. I wouldn't -- Kim, I wouldn't have paid attention to anything like that.

KIM DRAMER: But I remember grandma told me, that because she worked for the Red 50:00Cross in World War II, she would get invited to the Red Cross Ball.

BROOKE DRAMER: Ah.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Oh.

KIM DRAMER: Because I --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yes, I remember that.

KIM DRAMER: And she told me about crocheting lace for a dress that she was going to wear to the Red Cross Ball. It was lace connecting satin ribbons, and she still had it. And she showed it to me.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Interesting. Because during World War II, I was invited, uh -- I went --Merchant Marine Academy, out here. And my father wouldn't let me go. Nice girls didn't go, he said. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm. It was like a dance or something? What was it --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: It was a -- a dance.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And he wouldn't let me go. Look at the opportunities I 51:00missed? [laughter] It was int-- it was interesting. But every, uh -- everybody wrote letters. And think about it now, how many people do you know who write letters?

SADY SULLIVAN: Not many.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: They don't write letters.

SADY SULLIVAN: No.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: But we all wrote letters.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And we wrote to people we didn't know where too. Now that -- every once in a while I get something through the mail, and it says to write a -- a -- a -- write a -- a paragraph or something to, uh, a wounded soldier.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And yet I've never done it.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: But during the War I wrote to -- wrote to people I went to high school with.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: How would you find out their -- where to send the letters for -- for certain people?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: They would send you a letter first, and, uh, it would have an 52:00APO. I didn't know what that stood for.

BROOKE DRAMER: Army Post Office.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Army Post Office? And, uh, if it had an APO, they could forward it if the -- if the soldier was ill or was shipped out.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm. Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: They were -- we never got letters back, they were always forwarded.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And I think that was important. Because letters are very important.

SADY SULLIVAN: How do you mean?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: What?

SADY SULLIVAN: How do you mean -- why are they important?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Uh, because they attach you to home.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: You were in the middle of a jungle.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And some -- some -- somebody tells you about going to a birthday party down the street. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And what they ate, or whatever. That's what they like to -- they -- they wanted to hear.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: They wanted to hear about everyday things. If you went to a 53:00party, if you went to din -- what you had for dinner. They wanted to know. Because they didn't eat that kind of stuff anymore.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And they remembered. They remembered, but they couldn't remember how it tasted. [laughter] But that -- that's true.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm. Have --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And that's why you sent -- sent cookies and stuff like that. Mostly, uh -- at that time I -- I was setting, uh, windows for a, um, a candy shop called Rosemary de Paris. And I used to send chocolates --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mmmmmm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: -- out to the -- the -- uh, what'd they call them? Cats' tongues?

BROOKE DRAMER: Langue du chat.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Langue du chat. They were just the -- this long pieces of chocolate, in the shape -- it looked like a bone, really.

KIM DRAMER: Yeah.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah. It looked like a bone.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, I --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And, uh, sometimes they got there, sometimes they didn't get there.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: You know, somebody might have gotten the package beforehand, and sh -- smelled it or whatever. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And we also sent fruit, which was interesting. Because I don't -- I don't know how it ever got to any place.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: You weren't supposed to do that kind of thing.

KIM DRAMER: Couldn't you ship a salami out, from Katz's?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: What?

BROOKE DRAMER: Katz sent --

KIM DRAMER: Didn't Katz's send a salami to your boys in the Army?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yes. Yes. Katz's Delicatessen, the one in, uh -- is it East New York? The one in East New York.

BROOKE DRAMER: Houston Street.

KIM DRAMER: Houston Street.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Used to send, uh --

BROOKE DRAMER: And First Avenue.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: -- say, send a, a soldier a salami?

SADY SULLIVAN: Any like --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And they did! And they did!

BROOKE DRAMER: The poster's -- the poster's still on the wall there.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: What?

BROOKE DRAMER: The poster is still on the wall at Katz's.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Oh, really?

BROOKE DRAMER: "Send a Salami to Your Boy in the Army." Oh, yeah.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: But I remember that. You just gave the APO, the sol-- and they sent him a salami. [laughter] Of course you paid for it.

SADY SULLIVAN: Right. Right.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: It was not -- it was a business.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: But that's not all.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Uh --

SADY SULLIVAN: So did that give you -- when you were saying that it was mostly British soldiers that were --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: British sailors.

SADY SULLIVAN: British sailors that were --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: -- coming in. Um --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: They were torpedoed, most of them.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm. And so why would they come to Brooklyn?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: It must have been the nearest port.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: They always went to the nearest port.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Where it could -- they would get help.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And don't forget, the, uh, waters close to, uh, where they came from, England, had submarines. We didn't have submarines here.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm. Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: We did have submarines here, wait a -- um... Where was --

KIM DRAMER: Out at Montauk.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: At Montauk.

KIM DRAMER: They got -- they caught a German sub.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah. They never got closer than Montauk.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: They never got in the East River, for example, or -- or the 56:00Hudson River.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I don't know why, but -- oh, I know why. They had ships block -- blocking it. Of -- you didn't go down -- you couldn't go down the Hudson, because above, um, New City they had ships that blocked it, as I remember it. Near Bear Mountain.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I remember that.

KIM DRAMER: But didn't they get, uh, a bunch of subs over to Cape Harris, and they got wrecked?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Possibly. I -- I don't remember. I wouldn't have remembered that kind of thing, because I -- I wouldn't have a realm of reference with Cape Harris. So it wouldn't have stayed in my mind. Because I've gone to the Brooklyn Navy Yard so many times, that stays in my mind.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm. So tell --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And it was a lot -- there -- uh -- to get through to Brooklyn Navy Yard wasn't easy.

SADY SULLIVAN: Why?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: You had to stop at -- I think it -- as I remember it, at least four times. There were gates, and you had to go through one gate, then the next gate, and so on. Because the Brooklyn Navy Yard also, uh, restored ships that were torpedoed. And that, uh -- and that's like -- they certainly couldn't allow people to go in and out.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm. So tell me about -- what would -- what -- what's a typical ambulance trip that you would go on with your mom?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I never carried them off the ship.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Usually -- usually it was in my -- my mother -- one -- one who was on the ambulance, one always -- one woman stayed with the ambulance all the time.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And one went aboard the ship.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And they were helped down, uh, I guess, uh, by lab technicians or somebody, it was, uh -- who were taking care of the wounded. And -- and they were put aboard, uh, the ambulance. And they were put aboard too high usually. Now, a woman could not lift a heavy man like that, and, uh -- except perhaps the bottom one.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: But they -- sometimes they were -- they were three high in the ambulance, because the ambulance is high.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And when you got to the, uh, hospital, that was it. You went in, you reported what you -- uh, what was aboard the ambulance, and where they came from, and you did the paperwork, and some -- and doctors and nurses came out and did the rest.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: You never did anything else after that.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: That was it. Your job was to drop 'em off. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: But that was at that hospital. Who knows what happened at the other hospitals.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Every -- each hospital must have had their own rules anyway.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And it's all according to how many doctors, how many nurses, and so on.

SADY SULLIVAN: So you would get the ambulance from the hospital, and then drive to the Navy Yard?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Mm hm.

SADY SULLIVAN: How would you know -- how -- who would call the ambulance? How would you know that it was needed?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Who would call the ambu-- nobody called the ambulance, you went -- you went to the Brooklyn Navy Yard.

SADY SULLIVAN: You just -- would you know that there was people who were wounded?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yes. Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yes. They'd have to do -- they'd have to call that the ship was in.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: That wasn't -- didn't happen every day.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: But it --

SADY SULLIVAN: And so what were the sailors like? Were they -- were they conscious, were they in pain?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah, they were nice. And polite. Which -- most of them were Cockneys. You couldn't understand what they were saying. And I really mean I couldn't understand them.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: But they were always smiling, and they were always polite. They were, uh -- I never -- I never heard a nasty word.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I heard whistles, and "cutie." You know, "Tippy," whatever. But they were never nasty, and were always polite.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Maybe they knew my mother was there, I don't know. [laughter] It's very possible.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah. Yeah.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Because they -- they were two older women there.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Of course they didn't know whether it was my mother or not, but they, uh -- yeah, they could assume that they were going to take care of me.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm. Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And I was the one who gave out the candy.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And the -- and the gum. But they were -- and they were so thankful.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm. Were they -- how were they physically? Were they --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I told you. Covered with oil from head to toe.

SADY SULLIVAN: Ugh! And --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And smelling like oil.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: The only ones who weren't covered with oil -- I'm assuming this -- were the cooks, because they never, uh -- no, they -- maybe they -- I always saw them with aprons. Maybe they were covering dirty, uh -- they were never clean.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: They were never, never clean. Especially the British Army.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: British Army, I never saw anybody clean.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Now, if you, uh -- I don't know, if you could scrub the deck, 62:00I guess you could scrub yourself. I don't know. Or maybe they didn't have time. Who knows. I don't know.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah. Because I was just trying to think about, it must have been a long trip from wherever they got torpedoed back to Brooklyn, and that's a long time to stay covered in oil, heh. Pretty unpleasant.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Ah, think about, how do you take oil off?

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, yeah. I don't know. [laughter]

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Soap wasn't easy to come by. You -- soap was rationed, was it? I don't remember.

KIM DRAMER: I don't know.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I, I don't remember. But soap was hard to get.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

KIM DRAMER: But didn't they have basically burned --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: They had what?

KIM DRAMER: Their injuries were burns mostly, didn't you say that?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah.

KIM DRAMER: So what --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Well, what happened? If they abandoned ship, there was oil on the water which caught fire.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And if you were told to abandon ship, you had to jump in the 63:00water, because the ship was going to go down.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And the oil was burning.

SADY SULLIVAN: So they would jump into fire. Wow. Um, so were they --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: But of course -- what, waht they did was they jumped in so they get wet first.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And then they'd come up. But that does -- that doesn't protect you at all. I don't think so.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Because all the -- they had most of them, a lot had tremendous burns.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

KIM DRAMER: You said they had bandages on.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Kim, you can't wash the oil off to bandage somebody.

KIM DRAMER: But you said the bandages were wet.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah. They -- they -- they had -- they used what they had.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Maybe that's why they didn't use the water. Because how much -- how much fresh water can you carry?

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: They mu -- they must have had all kinds of rules, who knows.

SADY SULLIVAN: So were their burns and their injuries severe enough that, the people that you were seeing, do you think that they survived, most of them? Or how -- do you know?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I wouldn't have known whether they survived or not.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: You never really saw them again.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: You didn't know their name.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: So you couldn't find out about them anyway.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yet, I -- I imagine things are -- are worse in Afghanistan and -- and Iraq then they were during World War II. I -- that's what I'm assuming.

SADY SULLIVAN: Why?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Because the weapons are, are worse.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And, during World War II, you ever hear of anybody blowing themselves up?

SADY SULLIVAN: No.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Okay. Me neither.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Just so you could take three other people with you?

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: We didn't have that.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: But it was --

KIM DRAMER: Didn't you visit --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: It was an interesting time to live.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

KIM DRAMER: Didn't you visit just a couple of them in the hospital at Methodist, you said? You said they --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Uh, well of course when -- uh, when my mother and Kathleen delivered these men to, to -- uh, to the hospital, if I had any candy or whatever left, I went upstairs. Of course. Never took anything back. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: But they were -- if they were in the hospital, they were getting stuff. People brought stuff, I, uh -- and people ca-- came to visit. People who didn't know anybody just came to visit.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: People came and read to people. I remember seeing that.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Don't forget, a lot of them -- uh, a lot of these men had bandaged eyes, and they were read to, as I remember it.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: But there were no kids in the hospitals, eh, eh, that I had ever seen.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I mean, when I say kids... It was always adults. I -- I was about the youngest.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm. So even the sailors were older than you?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Not in -- not in the British Army. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: They --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: No, the British Navy, they -- they had fifteen-year-old sailors.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And they looked fifteen years old. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And don't forget, a lot of, uh, Americans joined the Army, and they were underage. They said -- they -- they said they were eighteen.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And they were sixteen or fifteen or whatever.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: So how do you know?

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

KIM DRAMER: You said they were short.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: If you want to join the Army, they don't ask you for a birth certificate. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Especially if they need you.

SADY SULLIVAN: That's right.

KIM DRAMER: You said they were small, the British sailors.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yes. British men were small.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: British Navy men were short.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And I'm not particularly short for -- for my generation.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I was taller than most of them.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Because they -- I remember, as you'd go through a ship, you'd have to bend to get through the doors. A lot of them didn't have to bend. They were -- they were very short.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow. So how tall would you say?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Under five feet.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow.

KIM DRAMER: That's short.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Because I'm 5'5".

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And I had to -- I had to duck to get on through the doors.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Well, that makes sense. Because if you have to get out in a hurry, you can't keep bending. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah. [laughter]

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: So maybe just -- maybe they only took short men, I have no idea.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: But I -- but it always amazed me how polite they were.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And they were Cockneys.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I said -- as I said, I didn't understand what they were saying, but they were very polite about it.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm. [laughter]

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And, uh -- and as -- I remember reading in somewhere, the Cockneys are not particularly polite.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: So I --

SADY SULLIVAN: Did they -- did they know where they were, did they understand what was happening?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Oh sure.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Sure. Sure. They know they were going to a hospital, that they were going to be helped.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And they knew it was American.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: First of all, uh, if you spoke to my mother or Kathleen you 69:00knew that -- you knew they weren't British.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm. So would you ride in the back of the ambulance? Where would you ride?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I would sit -- most of the time I'd be sitting on the floor, inside -- behind the driver, sitting on the floor, with my back, uh, against the seat.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm. So could you talk to the driver.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: You would say -- don't forget, these men who are hurt were put in, and then the door was closed.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: It must have been pretty scary.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: They didn't know where they were going.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: They assumed it was the hospital. But I -- I'm sure they 70:00assumed a lot of things that didn't happen.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And a lot of them would whistle. Songs that I -- I've never -- I -- I didn't know what they were. They would whistle.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: It was hard to see somebody so young so hurt. You'd -- it was really very hard to see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Because a lot of them you could see would be disfigured for life.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Because in those days, they -- you didn't have, uh, much plastic surgery. That's when they started -- started to know what they were doing. Today they -- they do have plastic surgery. At least I think so.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Or hope so. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: But then -- there were so many of them. But that, that's 71:00about all I remember. I don't remember that much. But I was very young.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm. Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And when you're young, you don't see things the same as you would see -- as you see them as you get older.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm. How do you mean?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: You ignore it. You don't know how much it hurts; you don't know that he's really going to be disfigured for life. It doesn't occur to you when you're young. No, it doesn't. It doesn't. Because you're young, you're going to be all right. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: But, really, you could see a lot of them weren't going to be 72:00all right.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: But as I say, you just -- it -- it didn't -- ah, I guess it didn't register.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: You knew, but it didn't register.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And amazing how you -- you -- you s-- and yet war goes on, and on, and on.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And it seems to me there's -- ah -- what's the gain? I don't know.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: It was interesting.

SADY SULLIVAN: What would you do to -- to make -- to make the wounded sailors --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Just talk.

SADY SULLIVAN: -- feel better?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Just talk.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Just talk. They wanted to hear an outside voice.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Especially a feminine voice.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Because they knew, if it was a feminine voice, they would be going someplace right. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, that's a good point.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: That doesn't -- it -- it -- it made sense.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah. Yeah.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Mm hm.

KIM DRAMER: Didn't you say they asked for water all the time?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: What?

KIM DRAMER: They asked for water --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Oh yeah.

KIM DRAMER: -- all the time.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Of course. Well, as soon as you gave them a -- a -- a -- a candy, they didn't need the water. It was the taste. They were very dry, and it was that taste of oil, Kim. You -- oil tastes like it smells.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Which is not -- not -- not nice. [laughter] And don't forget they were covered with it. And if you -- the oil in their hair. How do you get that out of your hair? You need a hell of a lot of soap to get that oil out of your hair. They weren't all covered with oil, but they were also very dirty.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Which, as an American, we -- we don't like dirt. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: That's true. [laughter]

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I think that's the best way to say it. We don't like dirt. We expect -- for example -- we expect people to bathe.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Europe is very different.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I mean, once a week was enough. [laughter] Right? You lived in Europe long enough. [laughter]

KIM DRAMER: Oh yes.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Once a week and a little perfume and you're okay. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

KIM DRAMER: Didn't you say you had an arm band or something?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: ah, I did have. I did have. But I don't know what happened to all that stuff. Wait a second. Kim, get that me -- the metal box.

KIM DRAMER: Okay.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I gave away most of the stuff.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: This is an ammunition box that my husband brought back with him.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: It had medications in it. And it did have arm bands in it, but I don't know --

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, that's neat.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: As you can see, it's the ammunition box --

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah. Wow.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: But a lot of this stuff is out, it's no longer in here. It smells. [laughter] I mean, all kinds of stuff in here. It's what, uh -- as you see, this is -- yeah, this is from World War II. I can tell by the box.

SADY SULLIVAN: Some kind of sulfa drug. Made in Kalamazoo.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah, this is -- yeah, this is codeine sulfate.

KIM DRAMER: Kalamazoo, Michigan is where daddy took his, um, training course to be a --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: What?

KIM DRAMER: That's where daddy took his training course --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah.

KIM DRAMER: To become a medic. Kalamazoo, Michigan.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm. Oh, and codeine.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah. You can tell these are old.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: The way the --

SADY SULLIVAN: They're really neat. So more -- more sulfa. So like a lot of anti--

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: What they had as -- for antibiotics.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yes.

KIM DRAMER: And we have, at my house -- because my son asked for them -- uh, kits that were taken onto the battlefield. They're like sardine tins.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

KIM DRAMER: They're sealed, and they have a key, and you open them up like a sardine can --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

KIM DRAMER: -- around the side. And they have, um -- we never opened it.

SADY SULLIVAN: That's neat.

KIM DRAMER: For a, a -- a wound.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I think you can figure out what that is. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter] So this is -- it's interesting to me. This is made by Eli Lilly.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yes.

SADY SULLIVAN: Which is still --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Still in business.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah. And this one's made by Upjohn. I don't know Upjohn.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah, Upjohn's still in business.

SADY SULLIVAN: They are?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Tincture of --

BROOKE DRAMER: Probably [inaudible].

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Benzoine. Oh. That's not supposed to be that dark.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

KIM DRAMER: Well ma, it's a half a century old. [laughter] And didn't you work in a lab also, mom?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah. Yeah.

KIM DRAMER: You -- you did pregnancy tests, right?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: What?

KIM DRAMER: You did pregnancy tests in the lab, didn't you?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yes. [laughter] I did what's known as AZ tests.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I killed the rabbit. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: What does that -- what did you -- what were you doing?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: When, uh -- if you want to know if you were pregnant --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: -- you use urine of the sus-- suspected one who was pregnant, woman --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: -- and you injected it into the, uh, rabbit's -- I don't know if -- I can't remember whether it was --

KIM DRAMER: Didn't you kill the rabbit by injecting it with air behind the ear, you told me?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yes, but then I don't remember whether that was, uh, a vein or a -- an arter-- a -- an -- an artery in a rabbit. I don't remember. What -- 79:00eh -- you would inject it with the, um, with the urine, and 48 hours later, you would kill the rabbit. And you opened the rabbit up, and you look at the rabbit's -- it was always the female rabbit -- ovaries. If -- if it was a black spot on the ovaries, it means it was positive. But you know what, you couldn't always tell. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow. I never knew that.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: But -- but that was all right, and I'll tell you why. Because if they weren't pregnant they got pregnant.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: They thought they were pregnant, why not.

SADY SULLIVAN: That's right. [laughter]

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: [laughter] Very --

SADY SULLIVAN: Where was that lab that you were -- where were you doing that?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: In Brooklyn.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh. Do you -- where -- where in Brooklyn?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I have no -- I have no idea of that.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

KIM DRAMER: Ma, look at this.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I think I could get the -- what's that?

KIM DRAMER: This is codeine. Codeine capsules, half a gram. It says --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Bet we could sell those. [laughter]

KIM DRAMER: -- [inaudible] Codeine half a gram.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow.

KIM DRAMER: And it's crystallized. The gelatin has dissolved --

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, yeah.

KIM DRAMER: -- and it's crystallized. And this is, uh, acid salicylic ointment, 5%, and petroleum. Manufactured -- it says "item number" and it has a number. And it says "Comfort Manufacturing, Chicago, Illinois." This says "Thiamin hydrochloride USP, manufactured by Mullin Hower Laboratories, Green Bay, Wisconsin." Phenobarbital.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, wow.

KIM DRAMER: It says one-half grain tablets. We should give this stuff to the Military Museum.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: That's -- that was -- that was an emergency kit. And that is 81:00in -- what everything was -- had in --

KIM DRAMER: Sulfurol!

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: It's heavy.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: You ran -- in other words, this was the, um, kit they ran on the beach with.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm. Wow.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I just left it that way.

SADY SULLIVAN: That's great.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: But there were a couple of things we took out, and I think one was the ar -- the arm bands that were there.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

KIM DRAMER: Yeah. Uh, uh, my son --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah, I think --

KIM DRAMER: "Amyl nitrite, 5 minims, USP, Park & David and Company, Detroit, Michigan. Keep in a cool place."

BROOKE DRAMER: That's stuff's not working anymore. [laughter] You see, my friend, Jan Christiansen, would have been in the Navy Medical Corps, found his, uh, kit, with the, um, uh, morphine ampoules. And, uh, maybe.

KIM DRAMER: "Quinine sulfate, 5 grams."

BROOKE DRAMER: Malaria.

KIM DRAMER: [inaudible]

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: None of that stuff is any good, uh, anymore.

KIM DRAMER: Vitamins A and D concentrate. Yeah but, as a collection of -- of -- 82:00as a kit, it's very interesting.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yes, it is interesting.

KIM DRAMER: To see what they wanted. But my son asked for his grandpa's arm band with the Red Cross.

BROOKE DRAMER: Oh wow.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

KIM DRAMER: As I remember, as a kid I had seen that. And as a kid you always wondered, did my father ever kill anybody during the war? You always wondered that.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

KIM DRAMER: And he said, "Well no, I actually was in the business of, um, patching people up." And I remember feeling much better about it. And I said, "Oh, that's great." My father said, "What's so great about that? They had the second-ratest high," you know, uh, you know "the second highest rate death in the whole damn Army." And I was like-- [laughter] Yeah, I thought, "Oh, okay." I don't think that wasn't so good. [laughter] And it was the same thing, at the end of the war he came out, he had, um, a medal. It had a red ribbon, and it said "For Good Conduct." It said something like "Honor, Efficiency," something else. I said, "What'd you get that for, daddy?" And he said, "I got it for not 83:00getting caught."

BROOKE DRAMER: That's right.

KIM DRAMER: Until I was thirty, I thought he meant for not getting caught by the Germans.

BROOKE DRAMER: Oh, no, yeah--

KIM DRAMER: I didn't realize he meant not getting caught doing all the stupid stuff he did. [laughter] Really.

BROOKE DRAMER: I think -- I think everyone who got a general, uh -- an honorable discharge got that.

KIM DRAMER: Got that. And that's what he said. He said, "Well, we had a bunch of guys coming out of the Army, and they had to give them medals."

BROOKE DRAMER: That's right, yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

KIM DRAMER: But, um, I know he got that. But he did -- actually there was an incident. Um, he was on this ship, and he was in charge of a couple of German POWs. And, um, one of them said to him, "Danny, in the next war, the Germans and the Americans will fight together and we'll fight the Russians." My father got so pissed off he punched him in the nose and broke it.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

KIM DRAMER: And I remember when we were kids, he had a ring that the guy gave him.

BROOKE DRAMER: He had a wallet that -- that -- that one had made for him, but he had paid him for it. They -- you know, they would --

KIM DRAMER: Yeah, yeah. They would barter.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And don't forget, he was in both theaters of war. Not just European, he was also in -- wha --

KIM DRAMER: The Philippines.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: The Philippines.

KIM DRAMER: We have a machete he brought back.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And then he -- then he was in, uh, Okinawa.

SADY SULLIVAN: Because he was a medic on a -- on a hospital ship, right?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yes. But that was at the beginning.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Then he was in what they called the MASH unit.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: The hospital ships stayed where they were, and they shipped him to the Pacific.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

BROOKE DRAMER: Now, I don't -- I didn't realize that. So he was on land in, uh, in the Philippines.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah. While he was in the Philipines.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Then -- then they -- then they -- they got out of the Philippines very fast. [laughter]

KIM DRAMER: Yeah, he said that was getting worse.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Otherwise they were captured by the, uh, by the Japs.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And marched around --

KIM DRAMER: He had a machete.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: -- for how many years again?

BROOKE DRAMER: Yeah.

KIM DRAMER: Yeah. Could still be marching.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Well, who was it -- the one I met in, um, in Monaco, what was her name?

KIM DRAMER: Oh, Meep.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: She was mar--

KIM DRAMER: Meep.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Meep. She was marched around by the Japs for -- for three years.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh my god.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Was in -- I -- I think she was in Manila.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Her father was a planter.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And they captured and they marched -- they marched them around from place to place.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

KIM DRAMER: But daddy had a machete he picked up in the Philippines.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah. I don't know where that machete --

KIM DRAMER: It's in the garage.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: It's in the garage? [laughter]

KIM DRAMER: An object of fascination for me as a child.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: We -- we -- we --

KIM DRAMER: And we also had --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: -- we have a lot of souvenirs, obvi-- obviously.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

KIM DRAMER: He also brought back sea shells.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: What?

KIM DRAMER: Sea shells. He brought back sea shells from the Philippines, and 86:00they were in cardboard -- kind of World War II cardboard -- boxes, with rolls of cotton in between.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah. Yeah, I remember that.

KIM DRAMER: And they had weird World War II smell. And then you put them in those glass jars in the kitchen, like worm shells, and very exotic shells.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah, they -- yeah, they're on the shelf over there.

KIM DRAMER: Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: See, we have a lot of souvenirs. I didn't really -- we got a lot of sou-- only we don't know where they are. [laughter] They've been changed from place to place.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: So they've lost their identity. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter] That's really interesting. And become incorporated into --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah, in your life.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: That's all.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: That's all. But it's interesting.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I mean -- [laughter] But I don't know, is that a World War II ammunition box, or World War I? It looks like a World War I.

KIM DRAMER: I don't know.

BROOKE DRAMER: Why would, uh --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I don't know. What kind of ammunition did it have?

KIM DRAMER: It says 50M2 on it.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Because a lot of that -- a lot of ammunition was only made during World War I, not during World War II. But I don't know enough about it.

KIM DRAMER: I remember once going through grandma's top drawer, and there were bullets in it.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And there -- ?

BROOKE DRAMER: Wow.

KIM DRAMER: There were bullets in her top -- remember that tchotchke drawer she had?

BROOKE DRAMER: Yeah, yeah.

KIM DRAMER: Had all kinds of crap in it. Lace, and little --

BROOKE DRAMER: Yeah, la-- we called it a bu-- a button drawer, yeah.

KIM DRAMER: A button drawer. And I found these bullets. And I remember I was really excited, and I brought them in the living room. And, uh, I said, "Oh, are these real bullets?" And Dee got pissed off, and he made us throw them in the garbage. He said, "That's live ammunition."

BROOKE DRAMER: Hm.

KIM DRAMER: "Get rid of it now."

BROOKE DRAMER: Oh my --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Where was I? I don't remember that.

KIM DRAMER: And I -- I remember that very, very clearly.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: That's what your father brought home.

KIM DRAMER: No.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: He could have brought home a painting.

BROOKE DRAMER: [inaudible]

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: He could have brought home gold. [laughter]

BROOKE DRAMER: That was in your mother's drawer.

KIM DRAMER: It was in her top drawer.

BROOKE DRAMER: So Murray could have brought them home?

KIM DRAMER: Murray could have brought it home. It was pointy. I remember the bullets were pointy.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: No, he would have never done anything like that.

BROOKE DRAMER: Considering what it's --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: He wa-- he wa-- he was an honest one -- [laughter]

KIM DRAMER: But we also have the --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: No, I don't think it would have occurred to him.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

KIM DRAMER: -- daddy's Army shirt.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

KIM DRAMER: A wool shirt.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Wow, others would have looked for that. That's -- it -- it's interesting.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: The spoils of war.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I'm, I'm going to try to find out whether -- I have -- I think that's a World War I ammunition box.

KIM DRAMER: We should take a picture of it. But as a kid, this was so --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: No, it has writing on it -- not writing, but, uh, stamps.

KIM DRAMER: Well, it says "modern," so you decide. Oh, look at this, it says "U.S." And it has a picture of like a bomb in between the 'U' and the 'S'.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

KIM DRAMER: You see it.

BROOKE DRAMER: Let me see.

SADY SULLIVAN: That is interesting.

KIM DRAMER: That is --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Well, what kind of bomb? That tells you.

KIM DRAMER: It looks like the kind by the side of the road, when your car gets 89:00broken down. Yeah.

BROOKE DRAMER: Oh. Oh. A, um--

KIM DRAMER: A Bugs Bunny kind.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: It would have said -- it said what was in it originally.

BROOKE DRAMER: Yeah, right, a cartoon bomb.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

KIM DRAMER: Well, it says, "Am box, cal. .50M2." And other than that, it doesn't say anything else.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And it -- the closing on it --

KIM DRAMER: Yeah.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: -- it wouldn't ever open unless it -- you opened it by itself.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: It didn't -- it would never open by itself, I imagine.

SADY SULLIVAN: So were you -- you were still going to high school when you were going on these ambulance --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I started when I was in high school.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: So would you tell people that you -- would you -- was it something that you talked about with your friends out -- outside of --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: No. No.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

BROOKE DRAMER: What's that?

KIM DRAMER: Wire splint.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Uh --

KIM DRAMER: "Unroll splint to its full length and fold and shape to support the fractured limb."

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: In high school, nobody spoke about the war.

SADY SULLIVAN: Really?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah. Unless they had a brother in the Army, or something 90:00like that.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: But otherwise they didn't speak about it.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Everyone was worried.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm. Was there --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Especially the boys were all worried.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Because, you know, I suppose they were afraid how they would act.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I'm sure you would be and I would be.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm. Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: How would we adjust to something like that?

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm. What about -- um, were people -- when you were in high school, were people getting telegrams about, you know, brothers --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I only knew of one. And I also only knew of one, uh -- one boy I went to high school with got -- got a s-- what they call a Section 8. And I remember his name, Teddy Tear [phonetic].

SADY SULLIVAN: What's a -- what's a Section 8?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: He's crazy.

BROOKE DRAMER: It means the same thing now.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh. So he didn't have to go.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: No. He went, and they -- he was dismissed.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: He went crazy.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

BROOKE DRAMER: In other words, it's a -- it's a 4F if you get out of the draft, but if you're already in the military and you get a Section 8, they've decided you're nuts.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: You -- you're really crazy.

KIM DRAMER: No one wants to sleep next to you.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter] Do you think -- was he faking it to get out of it, or --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: No.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Uh, I remember, ah, I was walking with a friend near the -- near an elevated train on -- on King's Highway. You know where that is?

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Okay. And Teddy was up at the top, he had gotten off a train --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: -- and he saw us, and yelled to us. And one said, "I thought you were in the Army." And he said, "I got out on a Section 8." [laughter]

KIM DRAMER: Oops.

BROOKE DRAMER: Yup. And -- and it --

KIM DRAMER: So what happened, you crossed the street?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Huh?

KIM DRAMER: You crossed the street?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: No, no. Come on. He was harmless, come on.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

KIM DRAMER: Didn't you have a friend, Matt Gruber [phonetic], who --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: What?

KIM DRAMER: Matt Gruber. Didn't you have a friend who didn't come back?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: That's him up there.

BROOKE DRAMER: My mother did that, uh, painting.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: He -- he --

KIM DRAMER: Drawing.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: He's dead though.

KIM DRAMER: Yeah. You said he died in the Battle of the Bulge.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: That's a -- that's a, um, picture I drew of him.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm. And he was someone you went to high school with?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: No, I was -- I was going to marry him.

SADY SULLIVAN: Uh huh.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And he was killed.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I -- it -- it -- to tell you honest truth, the, um -- me and all the people I knew, ah, I don't think we knew more than six who were killed 93:00during the war.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Which is not a lot.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And they knew a lot of people.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: See, it's -- it's --

SADY SULLIVAN: And so how old were you when -- what -- what is his name?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Nineteen.

SADY SULLIVAN: You were nineteen.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Nineteen.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm. And how did you --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: A very young nineteen. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah. How did you find out?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: From his sister.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Well, more than that. Uh, I was -- he made me the beneficiary of his life insurance.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And when I got the notice, my parents made me sign it over to his parents.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Otherwise I wouldn't be sitting here. I would probably be in California. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter] Why do you say that?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I would have had money. I would have had $10,000.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh my goodness. That's what the life insurance was. Wow.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: So I sign -- it was signed over to his parents -- I think they gave it to his sister.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm. Mm hm. And how did you know him? How did you guys meet?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Hm?

SADY SULLIVAN: How did you meet him?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I don't remember. In school I assume.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hmm.

BROOKE DRAMER: Was he -- was he at --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: At Cooper Union.

KIM DRAMER: Oh really, you met him at Cooper?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah, he was a, uh -- he was an engineer. Must have been Cooper Union, he was an engineer.

SADY SULLIVAN: Did you go to Cooper Union?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm. What were you studying there?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Ah, what was I studying. Science I guess. That's, that's about it.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

BROOKE DRAMER: And he planned to become a chemical engineer. He --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: But it was a very good school.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And you see -- and Kim's -- Kim teaches there now.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Oh, that's it. But it's -- it's interesting how, uh -- how easily you can forget a lot of things.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Is it because you want to? I don't know.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Or you -- because you think -- when you start thinking about it, it bothers you, so you push it out of your mind. I -- I assume that's the way -- that's what it really is.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm. Mm hm.

KIM DRAMER: But you had some good memories. You had that funny memory about, um --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: What?

KIM DRAMER: You had that funny memory about the Brooklyn Navy Yard, about your French teacher.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Oh. That was when I was in high school.

KIM DRAMER: Yeah.

BROOKE DRAMER: But tell that, because this is about the Brooklyn Navy Yard.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I told -- I said -- during -- kids didn't have telephones then. As you very well know. Telephones were not, uh, part of our lives.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And to call somebody up was a big deal.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Uh, I can't -- I -- I just can't remember his name, but I see his -- I see him, he's a tall, skinny kid. And I don't remember his name at all. In fact, I know who he married and everything, I just don't remember his name. At any rate, he called up our French teacher, Madame Boulard [phonetic]. I remember her very well. [laughter]

KIM DRAMER: She was an uber pill.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And -- and he said that --

KIM DRAMER: Say an accent, ma. You said --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: What?

KIM DRAMER: You said he put on a French accent.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yes.

BROOKE DRAMER: Yeah, she said he failed in French, but he could still do an accent, isn't that's strange.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: He was very good in accents. And he was from, um, the French Embassy, and they were choosing a -- a -- a French teacher in the public schools, uh, to christen the new ship, the --

KIM DRAMER: Rechristen the Normandy.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: The Normandy. And -- would she co -- go to -- I don't remember what pier or what the hell, with a bottle of champagne. Mind you, madame, French champagne. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And this kid did this. [laughter]

KIM DRAMER: And she --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And she did go. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: She did!

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Of course! Wouldn't you have gone? [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: Yes.

KIM DRAMER: Daddy said -- he called, and he said, "Is this Madame Boulard? The Madame Boulard who teaches French at James Madison High School?" And apparently he said, "Madame, of all the French teachers in Brooklyn, your name has been chosen." [laughter]

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Come on, wouldn't you have gone?

SADY SULLIVAN: Yes. So what happened, she went to the --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: She went.

BROOKE DRAMER: And they claimed that they -- and then -- and then his friend reported that he had seen Madame Boulard leaving her building with the bottle of champagne under her arm. [laughter] First she popped up a drink.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: But, uh, you see, nobody could trace a call in those days. I mean, what the hell?

BROOKE DRAMER: Yeah, yeah, I know. But, and it what was interesting that you said that, um, you only knew six people who had been killed. My father assumed, if he lost touch with a lot of people he assumed that they might have been killed --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah.

BROOKE DRAMER: -- um, and the reason I know that is, we went to, uh, Washington, D.C. -- it would have been about 1960 --

KIM DRAMER: Oh, god, I remember this.

BROOKE DRAMER: And we were sitting in a coffee shop, we were all sitting at the counter. And a short little guy came running up, and he said to my father, "When did you graduate from Madison?" And he started smacking my father on the back, and going, "I'm Buddy Marks, remember me?" And my father's going, "No, I'm afraid I don't." And my mother said, "I think I remember you." He said, "My real name's Lenny Marks?" And my father says no. And -- and my mother's going, "I think I remember you." And he started to say -- and my father just really wanted him to leave. And he started saying, "Do you remember so and so?" And my father -- and my father said, "Yeah, didn't he get killed in the war?" He goes, "No, 99:00he's still around. And do you remember" -- and he mentioned at least two people, and my fathe saidr, "I assumed he got killed in the war." And he said, "No, he's still around, and we're friends." And then he said, "Do you remember the Mann twins?" And my father lifted his cup of coffee, he says, "Yeah, they were a couple of ugly-looking women weren't they?" And he says, "Yeah, I should know, I married one of them." [laughter] And my father did a spit-take [laughter] across the counter into this coffee shop.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah. We've, uh, uh, we've met a couple of very interesting people.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: We met -- uh, where were we in the -- in, uh -- in Italy, that -- where they --

KIM DRAMER: I don't know.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: -- they had a -- the -- oh, I can't even remember the name of the -- when they had an earthquake.

KIM DRAMER: Weren't you in Palermo or something?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: What? Not -- no, a long, long, long, long time ago.

KIM DRAMER: Oh, Pompeii. Seventy --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: What?

KIM DRAMER: Pompeii.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Pompeii. Thank you.

KIM DRAMER: 79 AD. That was a while ago.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Uh huh, Pompeii.

BROOKE DRAMER: I have to memorize those dates, because of the art museum.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And we met -- we saw somebody we knew, a man, he was with somebody else's wife. [laughter] And we had to spend the whole -- whole day avoiding him. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I remember that. That was -- that -- that was a bummer. [laughter] Who -- who the hell would you expect to see in Pompeii with somebody else's wife?

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah, that's pretty crazy.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: It's pretty far out. [laughter] But the world is small.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm. Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: [laughter] So you can't get away with the things you used to get away with. But that was interesting.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: But we never really found out why he was with her or anything 101:00like that. It might have been very innocent, for all we knew.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

KIM DRAMER: He was, uh, interested in the, uh, archeological ruins, mom.

BROOKE DRAMER: Yeah.

KIM DRAMER: It's obvious to me.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: What?

KIM DRAMER: He was interested in the archeological ruins.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yes.

KIM DRAMER: Must be. About how many ships came into the Brooklyn Navy Yard at a time?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: A lot. A lot. They were always working on at least -- at least two ships. In other words, recommissioning them, re, redoing them, putting them back together again.

KIM DRAMER: And was it wo -- women worked on them?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And men. Men and -- women and men.

SADY SULLIVAN: What did it look like? Did it look -- because I -- from what I read, there was 70,000 people working there. But when I see the Yards, since they've been decommissioned, they're -- I don't see very many people. Did you 102:00see -- did it look like a bustling place? What did it look like?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Onboard the ships that they were fixing, there were at least a dozen people working, and walking back and forth, and carrying things and stuff. Otherwise you didn't see many people.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: You didn't see many people at all. I think, as I said, when you went in with the ambulance, you stopped at least four times. And -- and they -- they -- they had a clip board, and they -- and we were on it, and they phoned ahead at the next stop.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm. Who were these people that were the guards?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: They were guards. The guards.

KIM DRAMER: U.S. Army?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Were, were, were soldiers. They were soldiers with the -- with arms.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Sure. You know, are you going to blow up all the ships? [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And all the people who were working there.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: But you never thought about that kind of thing. Because they didn't do that kind of thing. I don't know.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

KIM DRAMER: But didn't you have blackout curtains?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: What?

KIM DRAMER: Didn't you have blackout curtains at home?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah, but we never used them. [laughter]

KIM DRAMER: Well, I don't think they'd be very effective in Brooklyn, but --

BROOKE DRAMER: Yeah, right.

KIM DRAMER: -- you had 'em.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: No, we didn't -- no, we didn't have to use blackout -- that was -- this wasn't -- this wasn't England. They did, uh, they got -- the West Coast might have been like that, like England, but the East Coast no.

KIM DRAMER: Did you have like drills in the Navy Yard, in case alarms went off? Did they tell you like, if the alarm -- like, what did they say?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yes. I had -- there aren't -- I only experienced one. And boy did everybody scramble.

SADY SULLIVAN: So what happened?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: They -- they set off an alarm, which means they thought that 104:00somebody was going to attack the Navy Yard. And everybody knew exactly where to go. Today I don't think that would happen. [laughter] I really don't think that would happen. People are not as disciplined. And they don't -- and people don't follow orders these days.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

KIM DRAMER: So where did you have to go?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: There was a -- they -- you went in -- had to go inside someplace. And put your head down.

KIM DRAMER: Wow.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: We also had to -- or that was World War T-- yeah, uh -- that happened, we did -- and we had that kind of thing happen in -- in schools.

KIM DRAMER: Yeah, I did too as a child.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah.

KIM DRAMER: Get -- get under the desk, don't -- don't be near a window.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: But nothing ever happened.

SADY SULLIVAN: In the Navy Yard, what was the -- how did they sound the alarm? 105:00What was the alarm?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Like an "ooga" sound. Ooga, ooga, ooga. Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: It was v -- you knew what it was.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: You knew what it was. Everything stopped immediately.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And everybody moved where they were supposed to go.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Everybody knew exactly what to do.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I don't think that would happen today.

SADY SULLIVAN: Do you think -- was it -- was it a test, or was it a real worry at that one?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: They never tell you that. [laughter] If they told you that, next time that happened, you'd say, "Ah, it's just a test."

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm. Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: No, they never told you that.

KIM DRAMER: And was there like an all-clear signal at the end?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: What?

KIM DRAMER: Was there an all-clear signal?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah.

KIM DRAMER: How did you --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah. It's a different sound.

KIM DRAMER: Yeah? What kind of sound was that?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Just a -- just a siren. Not -- not a -- a static. Very different, very different.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, so the alarm was a static -- so the first one--

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: The first one was like an "ooga, ooga, ooga."

BROOKE DRAMER: "Oooooga, oooooga."

SADY SULLIVAN: And then kind of on and on--?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And then -- and then the second one was just a -- a -- a siren that went off.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm. And then stopped.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And then it stopped.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And everybody was back at work.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: But I don't think the Brooklyn Navy Yard was ever attacked.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Was it?

SADY SULLIVAN: No.

BROOKE DRAMER: No.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Okay.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

KIM DRAMER: They're not gonna screw with Brooklyn.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: However -- I'm just telling you, if they, if if -- if you were told the second time that happened, "Oh, we're just testing the alarm," the third time you wouldn't move.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: You know that.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Very interesting.

SADY SULLIVAN: Was there a sense of, um, of -- I know that there was the checkpoints. Was there other kind of security for the yard, in terms of, did 107:00they have to --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: If they -- you never knew.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: That was the point. You never knew.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: You'd -- you never knew if you were being watched, or whatever. Which made sense. It makes sense.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: If you knew there was a guard over there watching you, whenever you were near him you'd -- you wouldn't do anything. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm. Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: No, it's -- it was -- that's why I think there were four checkpoints.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And that's why I think they've -- they -- they really phoned ahead.

KIM DRAMER: What about, like, pleasure craft?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: What?

KIM DRAMER: Were you allowed to take boats out on the water for fun, or for fishing? Or was that banned?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: No. There were -- for example, uh, near the Brooklyn Navy Yard, there were never any boats there. Never. I -- I'm -- I assume there was a 108:00-- a barrier. There had to be. There had to be. Because there were subs. There had to be.

BROOKE DRAMER: Mm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: They had subs on the West Coast. And as they said, you said, said they had a sub at Montauk.

BROOKE DRAMER: Yeah.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: It could have gone -- gone farther, in toward the city.

SADY SULLIVAN: Could you walk around when you were -- when you were at the Yard?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: You were only the -- because there were f -- like four checkpoints, it was only one -- at one area, then another area, then another area, then a third -- fourth area.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: So you were always in a confined area.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Made a lot of sense.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: If you thought about it.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm. So where would the ships -- the sailor -- the ships that were bringing the wounded --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: The sailors weren't there. Once the ships were brought in, the sailors were off. Excuse me. Brooke.

SADY SULLIVAN: So the -- once the ships were brought in the sailors were off. So where were the sailors that were wounded that you were picking up? Where did you pick them up from?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: From the ship.

SADY SULLIVAN: Okay.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: From the ship first, and then they went to Methodist Hospital.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Or maybe not that hospital. Wherever they had room.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And then, uh -- that, that's about it.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm. And where did the ships come in?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: It was very organized.

SADY SULLIVAN: Do you remember the -- the, um -- the docks where they came in?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah, sure.

SADY SULLIVAN: Do you know where -- like -- well, this is a -- that's an older map that doesn't have some of --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: There were at slips. Aren't there slips on that?

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah, yeah. I think there's like five different --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah. Then I don't -- they never had -- I don't think I ever saw more than four ships.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: But you know what, they all looked alike.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm. Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: [laughter] You -- so if you'd be looking this way, you weren't sure whether there were four ships or five ships. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: Right, right.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: It was interesting. The -- the Navy Yard's still there.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah. Yeah. I've -- I've had the -- the tour.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I understand they -- every once in a while they do ship building there.

SADY SULLIVAN: There's dry docks that are --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: -- um, still functioning. There's two I think that still function to repair ships. Yeah. Um, did you see -- ever see any of the ships in dry dock? So out of the water?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: No.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: No, I never saw the --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm. Were you -- did you see -- were you aware of any of the ships that were being built?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: No, they were always being fixed, not built.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm. Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Maybe they didn't build any at, uh, Brooklyn Navy Yard, maybe they just restored them.

SADY SULLIVAN: They built a few. They built the Missouri there, but that might have been before.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: It might have been before.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm. Um, what about the places around the yard. Like, um, what was Flushing Ave like?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: You know, there's a road there, all along the water.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: There were cars there.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Uh, and of course this was war time, so there weren't many cars.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: And that was -- there was also -- it, it was -- it was on the way to the -- to the bridges.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

KIM DRAMER: Did grandma --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: There were never -- there were never a lot of people around.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

KIM DRAMER: Did grandma pick the ambulance up from Methodist, or did she park it outside the -- the apartment.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Say that again.

KIM DRAMER: Did grandma drive the ambulance back to the hospital every time, or did she park it outside her house?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Never. Always at the -- never -- it was never parked outside 112:00of the house. Never. And don't forget, she had to have a car to go there.

KIM DRAMER: That's right.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: My mother always had a car. My mother was a very valuable person. She had a car. [laughter]

KIM DRAMER: Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: So you would -- you would drive to the hospital, and get in the ambulance --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yes, yes.

SADY SULLIVAN: How -- I guess what I'm -- what I'm trying to understand is, how -- I'll get it later -- how did you know when there was going to be wounded sailors.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: They'd call you.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Otherwise, why would you go?

SADY SULLIVAN: Right.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah.

KIM DRAMER: So did you like mostly go after school, or --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Mostly on Saturday and holidays.

KIM DRAMER: Oh, that was convenient. They would drop the guys on a holiday. [laughter] "Oh, Mrs. Mansdorf's available Saturday. We'll drop then." I mean --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Never went on Sunday. I don't know why, we never went on -- oh, I know, Kathleen was religious. That's right. Kathleen went to church.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

KIM DRAMER: Oh, so there were different teams they would call, maybe.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah. So -- and, and -- they were a team.

KIM DRAMER: I remember grandma said, one day she and Kathleen got a call, and they had to deliver somebody's baby.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yeah.

KIM DRAMER: So they did do other things.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Well, that's an emergency. Emergency's a different thing.

KIM DRAMER: So how did that work?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: They call you, I guess. And whoever's closest goes. It has to be the one who's closest. Otherwise they may not make it. [laughter]

KIM DRAMER: I remember grandma said they had to stitch the woman up. And she's still -- like, she was wincing. It was like fifty years later, she said, "Oh, I remember they stitched her up."

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Ugh

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

KIM DRAMER: So --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: My mother was a little person. My mother was like -- was she 5'1"?

KIM DRAMER: No. She was not.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: [laughter]

KIM DRAMER: She was maybe 4'11". With heels.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: My mother was small. My mother was small.

KIM DRAMER: So let's calm down about that. I remember when I was eight years old, I used to traipse around the house in her high-heeled shoes. And when I was nine, they were too small. She was small.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow.

KIM DRAMER: She was very small. But she always wore the spike heels.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yes.

KIM DRAMER: I remember that.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: She always wore heels, yeah.

KIM DRAMER: She always wore heels, she always had her hair dried, and she always had on at least three diamond rings. That's what I remember about grandma. She had a big diamond pinky ring, she -- on this hand -- she had a -- a diamond wedding band with pear-shaped diamonds, and she always had some other --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Funny, I don't remember that. [laughter]

KIM DRAMER: -- thing. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I used to enjoy --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I guess I was used to it.

KIM DRAMER: I used to enjoy checking out her jewelry. And she also had glasses with rhinestones in the corner.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yes. Yes!

KIM DRAMER: That --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Yes. That I remember.

KIM DRAMER: -- those were real --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: That I remember.

KIM DRAMER: Trust me.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow.

KIM DRAMER: Trust me.

SADY SULLIVAN: So was she -- having -- driving, having her own car, doing this 115:00ambulance work, that seems very -- that seems pretty forward at that time. Was she -- was she a pretty bold woman?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Was she what?

SADY SULLIVAN: A bold woman?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: I think she was very much in control of herself.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

KIM DRAMER: I know she went on cruises.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: What?

KIM DRAMER: I know she went on cruises alone. That must have been pretty, uh --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm hm.

KIM DRAMER: -- pretty risqué there.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Well, my father wouldn't travel.

KIM DRAMER: I know.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: She went to foreign countries, uh, with a friend. It was interesting.

KIM DRAMER: And she went to Cuba.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: No, my mo -- my mother was --

KIM DRAMER: With, uh --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: -- not a scaredy cat.

BROOKE DRAMER: Neither was grandpa.

KIM DRAMER: Yeah, she went to Cuba, because Willy found a manifest from 1954 I think, they were coming back from Cuba. They used to go to Cuba a lot. And as a kid, they had pictures -- there was a picture of my grandmother drinking out of 116:00a coconut, which I thought was the height of exoticism. And she had this big glass bowl, full, stuffed -- it was about this big -- of swizzle sticks, and nightclub -- these little -- it looked like a toma --

BROOKE DRAMER: And poker chips.

KIM DRAMER: -- like a tom tom thing. Poker chips, and all this kind of stuff they got at nightclubs. And we used to arrange them on the, she had -- that oriental carpet. And we'd like make them into like battalions of swizzle sticks, and fight against each other. [laughter] And she had dozens and dozens -- I'd kill for that now.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Well, you know, they went -- uh, what was the -- the liquor -- um, the people who owned liquor stores. They used to travel together.

KIM DRAMER: Oh, I remember that guy. What the heck was his name?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Where they had -- it was a club.

KIM DRAMER: Knottenson [phonetic]? Was it Knottenson?

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: No, no, not -- not Knottenson, no. He was the teacher.

BROOKE DRAMER: I mean, you said also grandpa had done rum running with the Lun--

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: What?

BROOKE DRAMER: You said grandpa had done some run running with the Lundy brothers --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Oh yeah, that was a long time ago.

BROOKE DRAMER: -- and allowed them to use his garage.

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: [laughter]

BROOKE DRAMER: He had -- he had some connection with these --

SHIRLEYANN DRAMER: Out of -- out of Sheepshead Bay.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, wow.

KIM DRAMER: Yeah. He used to run rum. And I -- I asked him how you -- how he did it. And he said that they had a -- a pulley line, and they would load the ship with rum. I said, "Oh, did you -- did you -- did you row it there?" And he goes, "No, you had a pulley line. You just pulled it over from one side to the other." And that was how they ran rum.