Wesley Fagan

JANE GREEN: [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter] Yes.

WESLEY FAGAN: I'm telling it like it is.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

WESLEY FAGAN: Okay.

DANIELLA ROMANO: [laughter] Why? What's the point otherwise?

WESLEY FAGAN: You won't delete any of this?

JANE GREEN: [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: Nope.

JANE GREEN: Oh my God. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: Well. Unless you want.

DANIELLA ROMANO: Unless you dec -- yeah, that's right.

SADY SULLIVAN: Unless if there's something that you don't want--

DANIELLA ROMANO: Right.

SADY SULLIVAN: --to be--

WESLEY FAGAN: Because it's something-- maybe you will delete some of it [inaudible].

SADY SULLIVAN: We will not delete anything. We want it all. Um, but if there's ever something that you don't want to be on the recording we'll take that out.

WESLEY FAGAN: Anyway, get that, um--

JANE GREEN: What you want?

WESLEY FAGEN: --the glass that I --

DANIELLA ROMANO: Oh that. Oh yeah.

JANE GREEN: Which glass?

DANIELLA ROMANO: Well [inaudible].

WESLEY FAGAN: The magnifying (inaudible).

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

WESLEY FAGAN: I don't know [inaudible].

JANE GREEN: Here it is.

DANIELLA ROMANO: [inaudible]

WESLEY FAGAN: This -- this is the beginning of nineteen -- nineteen, uh--

DANIELLA ROMANO: [laughter] Starting at the beginning.

WESLEY FAGAN: --thirty-four--

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah. Oh [inaudible].

WESLEY FAGAN: --in Buffalo, New York.

JANE GREEN: Have mercy.

DANIELLA ROMANO: Here, hang on. Before you get started, can I -- can we just 1:00talk about the books --

WESLEY FAGAN: Talk about the Navy Yard, yeah.

DANIELLA ROMANO: -- and fill out that -- well no. To talk about the books, because I'm going to take the books with me today until Tuesday.

WESLEY FAGAN: Yeah okay. Yeah.

DANIELLA ROMANO: But I want to get our record straight what I'm taking.

WESLEY FAGAN: We'll do the Navy Yard first. Yeah. Yeah.

WILL SUMMERS: Yeah, here's the thing: basically we don't want to interrupt you once you get started.

DANIELLA ROMANO: No. Right. Exactly.

WILL SUMMERS: Because you're going to tell it like it is.

WESLEY FAGAN: [inaudible]

DANIELLA ROMANO: Right. So this--

WESLEY FAGAN: Yeah.

DANIELLA ROMANO: And then this is the only Navy Yard-related book, right?

WESLEY FAGAN: Yeah. Yeah.

DANIELLA ROMANO: You -- and, and I probably shouldn't take...

WESLEY FAGAN: It has nothing to do with --

DANIELLA ROMANO: Okinawa or anything

WESLEY FAGAN: No. No.

DANIELLA ROMANO: Okay. Then let me just finish filling this out. Um, Brooklyn cover photography, Brooklyn--

WESLEY FAGAN: But in, in, in, in -- at least at the Navy Yard I, I, I -- at least I want my picture.

DANIELLA ROMANO: With your credit. Yeah.

WESLEY FAGAN: I want my -- I want credit for this, you know.

DANIELLA ROMANO: [laughter] It's true. I'm already thinking about an exhibit.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

DANIELLA ROMANO: Um, okay. Now I want to make sure that the book that I'm taking is photographs and not photocopies.

WESLEY FAGAN: Yeah.

DANIELLA ROMANO: Because it won't work if I'm taking photocopies. They won't scan properly. So these are the ones. The photographs. I love -- thank you. Okay. So when I come back I'll probably take some notes with you.

WESLEY FAGAN: Yeah.

DANIELLA ROMANO: Okay. So I'm going to write it out. Okay. To be returned.

WILL SUMMERS: So Mr. Fagan, I see right there, it said you actually took these pictures yourself, some of them.

DANIELLA ROMANO: Oh yeah.

JANE GREEN: [inaudible]

DANIELLA ROMANO: He was the chief of the --

WILL SUMMERS: Oh Mr. Fagan. You actually took some of these photographs yourself?

WESLEY FAGAN: Hmm?

WILL SUMMERS: These photographs. You actually took them yourself?

WESLEY FAGAN: All of them. Most all -- most all of this is my work.

WILL SUMMERS: Well that's great.

WESLEY FAGAN: There are one or two in here that I didn't take. For -- for example this -- this -- this -- this -- this, uh, shot here. This was taken Memorial Day of, of the Kennedy. Marine took this picture. Marine came to the Navy Yard and took this picture. But he brought the -- the film to my lab and I 3:00developed them and I printed these.

WILL SUMMERS: All right.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: So I kept -- I kept these. But I didn't take this picture and I -- I didn't take the -- I didn't take this one. But -- but -- but now this is mine. This is my picture here. This -- this is my picture here, photographing the, uh --

JANE GREEN: You -- you turned --

WESLEY FAGAN: Vice President Humphrey's daughter--

JANE GREEN: -- you turned two --

WESLEY FAGAN: --when, when she christened the ship. And this photographer said to me, "how did you get this job." Prejudiced. He didn't know that -- that I was the candid taker -- was the photographer for the Navy Yard.

DANIELLA ROMANO: Chief photographer.

WILL SUMMERS: Wow.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

WESLEY FAGAN: And he didn't know that I took the -- the civil service examination for photography for, for, for the -- for the chief. I was number one on the list. Number one of all of them. I have all this information.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WILL SUMMERS: All right, mister.

WESLEY FAGAN: He didn't know that. So he asked me how did I get this job.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: So and the coincidence that happened, because I couldn't force this, and nobody -- and no one could -- could prove it. But --

WILL SUMMERS: Well no one will take credit for your photographs.

WESLEY FAGAN: But -- but --

JANE GREEN: [laughter] Thank you.

SADY SULLIVAN: No.

WESLEY FAGAN: This -- this -- this is attorney general. And when I -- when he showed -- when I showed him this picture he made the same statement. I wonder how you got these pictures. See, he had a little prejudice in his --

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh he thought you -- he didn't know you were the photographer.

WESLEY FAGAN: I couldn't do -- I -- I couldn't say nothing about it, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Right, right.

WESLEY FAGAN: And he gave me an award. Gave me this award. But in his, in his speech, in his speech he said to me, "I'd like to know how you got this picture too."

JANE GREEN: You just taking that one?

DANIELLA ROMANO: Yup, yup. But, if that reads all right to you.

WESLEY FAGAN: I don't know what he was thinking. But, but -- but to me that was a prejudiced remark, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yup. Yup.

WESLEY FAGAN: And, see, uh, see, I was number one on this, see the list. This is the chief.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh yeah.

DANIELLA ROMANO: He probably wanted your job I'm sure.

JANE GREEN: Yeah, right. [laughter]

WESLEY FAGAN: And I was a professional musician too. I was a professional musician, I had that in my interview with you.

SADY SULLIVAN: Good, good, so --

DANIELLA ROMANO: Show her --

SADY SULLIVAN: -- so as soon as we --

DANIELLA ROMANO: Show her the Okinawa book.

JANE GREEN: [laughter]

DANIELLA ROMANO: You should see him as a soldier.

WESLEY FAGAN: There, there's a couple other pictures in there that I, that I didn't take. I took this. I took this. During Memorial Day.

WILL SUMMERS: That's good work.

WESLEY FAGAN: I took this Memorial Day. They all gave the -- dedicated. But these, these are the candids I didn't take, see. I took this. That's me there. You know what I want to ask you. I, I didn't get the name of this. This is Mondale here.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

WESLEY FAGAN: See this is a personal letter I got from the Vice President of the United States.

WILL SUMMERS: All right sir.

WESLEY FAGAN: It says, dear Mr. Fagan. Just a note. Thank you for your part in making my daughter's visit to the Naval Shipyard.

WILL SUMMERS: That's great.

DANIELLA ROMANO: Can you believe that?

WILL SUMMERS: It's a real honor to meet you, sir.

DANIELLA ROMANO: I know.

WESLEY FAGAN: This, this is Hubert Humphrey, Vice President of the United States.

DANIELLA ROMANO: And a real honor to be able to conduct this interview.

WESLEY FAGAN: That's his daughter.

DANIELLA ROMANO: Okay, Mr. Fagan. Kindly, we're -- I've signed both of these. So please sign. Look this over. Make sure you're comfortable with that.

WESLEY FAGAN: What now?

WILL SUMMERS: You need your looking glass? It's right there, Mr. Fagan.

DANIELLA ROMANO: No, he's got it. I write big. Now -- now --

WESLEY FAGAN: Okay. I'll return it by Friday.

SADY SULLIVAN: -- to return by next Friday by 3:00 p.m. Okay? So same time. It's giving us one week. Can you sign right here? Thank you. And right here. [laughter] Just so we both have the same copy. Great, and then let me date it. And then --

JANE GREEN: You'll have a copy. We'll keep a copy.

WESLEY FAGAN: All these. I took all these.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yup, and then that is yours. Okay. So maybe Ms. Green wants to 7:00hang on to that. Okay.

WESLEY FAGAN: That's an accident. That's an accident.

WILL SUMMERS: Oh right, yeah. I work at the Navy Yard, sir.

WESLEY FAGAN: Oh, I want -- I wanted you to tell me about this, this ship. I, I didn't get to -- my supervisor lived in Jersey.

DANIELLA ROMANO: Uh-huh.

WESLEY FAGAN: And this, this -- ship caught on fire and he called me to cover it. Called me. Because he couldn't get there in time. But I didn't know the name of this ship.

DANIELLA ROMANO: That's the Ca -- is it the Constellation?

WESLEY FAGAN: Is it? Is it the Const --

DANIELLA ROMANO: Was this De -- yeah. Was this December 1960? 1960?

WESLEY FAGAN: Oh it's the Constellation.

DANIELLA ROMANO: Yup. Unbelievable.

WESLEY FAGAN: I have it here, yeah.

DANIELLA ROMANO: So talk to him about the Constellation.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. [laughter]

WESLEY FAGAN: Yeah this is it in here. Yeah, see, it was on fire, see. So this is the Constellation, right?

DANIELLA ROMANO: Yup.

WESLEY FAGAN: Yeah, okay. I can never remember them.

DANIELLA ROMANO: Yeah that was -- a lot of men died that day.

[Interview Interrupted.]

WESLEY FAGAN: Out in Shinnecock Reservation. That was in Southampton.

SADY SULLIVAN: Right.

WESLEY FAGAN: Long Island.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah. I know that one.

WESLEY FAGAN: So -- so she said, "what about me taking your kids, you and the kids, out to the reservation, see." She says, "I was born out there." So I said, "Yeah why not." I didn't know what a powwow was, then. So I said okay. So she took us out to the reservation on, on Labor Day. They didn't have Labor Day there. So she said to me, "you know I'm eligible for, for -- for four acres of land out here." I said oh. I said, "well let's build something." I got a good book here that I built this house by myself.

WILL SUMMERS: Wow

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh you did. Oh that's so great.

WESLEY FAGAN: I got pictures. I got pictures. I got -- this is when I was in -- in Hawaii.

DANIELLA ROMANO: Wow.

WESLEY FAGAN: I got a book here. That's when I said that it'll be --

DANIELLA ROMANO: This is when he was in the band.

WESLEY FAGAN: This is, this is a history.

SADY SULLIVAN: Right.

WILL SUMMERS: Wow.

WESLEY FAGAN: This is the history of -- this is my wife. And this is, this is me doing all this work by myself.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh wow.

WESLEY FAGAN: No help.

SADY SULLIVAN: So cool.

WILL SUMMERS: You know how to make concrete blocks and everything.

DANIELLA ROMANO: I know, right?

WESLEY FAGAN: All this by myself.

WILL SUMMERS: I did masonry work. I know what that takes.

WESLEY FAGAN: That's me there --

WILL SUMMERS: You're a very talented --

WESLEY FAGAN: -- putting the siding on.

WILL SUMMERS: You're a very talented man, Mr. Fagan.

WESLEY FAGAN: This is the finished product. This is my mother now.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow.

DANIELLA ROMANO: Industrious.

WESLEY FAGAN: All by myself.

DANIELLA ROMANO: On the weekends.

WESLEY FAGAN: I was a professional musician working at the Navy Yard, and at weekends, Saturday, I would -- morn -- morning I would go out there and work on the house, get in the car. It's ninety miles out to the -- out to the reservation. I'd come back and play at the Savoy or --

WILL SUMMERS: Wow.

WESLEY FAGAN: -- or -- or whatever job we had with the band. I was a musician. I was with -- I was with a senior citizen orchestra. Uh, uh, financed by the senior -- by the, by the Department of Aging. I played saxophone in the band there. I would play my gig Saturday night. My wife would put the, uh, uh -- at 10:00three o'clock in the morning when we finished playing she would put all these kids in the car. And at that time they were tearing down -- they, they were building the, the, uh, projects there on Marcy Avenue. And I used to take some of the lumber and put it in the yard all during the week.

DANIELLA ROMANO: [laughter] What?

WESLEY FAGAN: Friday night I would put the lumber on the top of the car. My wife would meet me at Conduit at the end of the -- the -- the A train line at Long Island Expressway. She'd meet me with the kids. And, and uh, bring my horn and everything. And we'd drive in the middle of the night. We'd drive all the way out to, to the reservation and I'd work on the house. I'd get back in the car Saturday night. Saturday night and come back. And play Sunday and go back out there Sunday to work on the Sunday. Then for about ten years. That's, that's how I build this house by myself.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow.

WESLEY FAGAN: This is when I got them at the city. That's what they looked like.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh so did -- so --

WESLEY FAGAN: This is what they looked like when I got them from the city.

DANIELLA ROMANO: He fostered four kids.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, okay.

WESLEY FAGAN: And the city used them as advertisements, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

WESLEY FAGAN: They came here and used them for advertisements. This is from -- that's one of them -- see here. See, that's what they looked like when we got them.

DANIELLA ROMANO: Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: How old are they now?

WESLEY FAGAN: And they were from -- they were from the Manhattan -- they were from the Harlem Hospital. They were from Harlem Hospital and they had bedsores, you know. And, uh, we had put in -- we had put in, um, for kids through my church --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: -- for, for, for -- for them -- and it took them so long to, to fill -- so we asked why -- why it takes so long. They were trying to match colors.

SADY SULLIVAN: Right. Yeah.

WESLEY FAGAN: They're trying to match color.

JANE GREEN: As much as possible.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

WESLEY FAGAN: I said, that's discrimination.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

WESLEY FAGAN: Said all, all -- all we have available now is these kids in the Harlem Hospital. We took these kids. That's them now, as they grew up. See, 12:00that's, that's growing. That's me playing clarinet in my [inaudible]. That's them as they grow up.

DANIELLA ROMANO: Look at you.

WESLEY FAGAN: That's the girl when we got her.

SADY SULLIVAN: Aw.

WESLET FAGAN: There, uh, look at this.

DANIELLA ROMANO: Look at the band. Oh my gosh. Performing.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh! [laughter]

WESLEY FAGAN: This was graduation. Wingate. He, he turned out to be a concert pianist. He won a lot of contests. Came in second at Carnegie Hall. This is the boy when he graduated from Boys' High.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh great.

WESLEY FAGAN: This -- this is him now. He won a game for -- for Boys' High. This, um -- this is the kids. He's one of the boys. He graduated with them. But, but you'll see, um, this was from -- that's my hood ornament. This -- this is 13:00the middle boy. He served as a paratrooper. He's buried out in the veterans' cemetery. He got all these medals. And this is from Cuomo. The first -- Mario Cuomo.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah. Yup.

WESLEY FAGAN: Hm. Hm. All right. But he -- he was a paratrooper in, in the service. Of course that's my group there.

SADY SULLIVAN: During Vietnam? Or is that --

JANE GREEN: Yup. That's what I think.

WESLEY FAGAN: And this is my, my, uh -- and I was held up on the GG train. And, and sitting here I was -- I played at the, uh, Twin Towers Ca -- Democratic Convention at the Twin Towers. And coming back home on the GG train it was held up by four guys that -- that lived in the projects there on Marcy Avenue. Marvy and Park Avenue. And they -- they held me up you know and robbed me and tore my tuxedo pants. That's where they tore my tuxedo pants there.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

JANE GREEN: [laughter] How did you take a picture? Oh, you took a picture of the [inaudible].

WESLEY FAGAN: That was taken at the police precinct. But when they turned to go 14:00out of the door, the train stopped and the police was on the platform and they -- and they arrested them.

DANIELLA ROMANO: Oh really?

JANE GREEN: Oh they did catch them.

DANIELLA ROMANO: How did they -- how -- that was just luck?

WESLEY FAGAN: See I got --

JANE GREEN: They just happened to be there.

WESLEY FAGAN: And I got -- I got so much information --

DANIELLA ROMANO: Crime doesn't pay.

WESLEY FAGAN: -- that I don't know where to stop.

DANIELLA ROMANO: Don't forget this goes in there.

WESLEY FAGAN: This is -- this is when I was in Hawaii.

DANIELLA ROMANO: Look at that.

WESLEY FAGAN: With the Army show. This is the Army show. That's me paying saxophone. I was in Hawaii. I was with the Army. But I was in Hawaii. And this is the show. Harlem -- Harlem is Callin'. That's the show. And we, we --

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh. So how did, how did -- who organized that?

WESLEY FAGAN: And so then Harlem is Callin' [inaudible].

JANE GREEN: He just --

WESLEY FAGEN: And I was with that show.

JANE GREEN: She said how did you organize the pictures. How did you get the pictures if you were playing?

SADY SULLIVAN: No, no I wondered who organized the show.

WESLEY FAGAN: This was taken -- this was taken by a photographer in, in -- in the Army, see.

JANE GREEN: Oh, oh. Oh.

WESLEY FAGAN: This is taken by the photographer in the Army.

DANIELLA ROMANO: Look at his girlfriend.

WESLEY FAGAN: This is Army picture.

SADY SULLIVAN: Four -- four wives. And a couple of beautiful girlfriends. Life is good. Life is good. [laughter]

WESLEY FAGAN: And then when I was in Hawaii then -- then they sent me to Okinawa.

SADY SULLIVAN: That's --

DANIELLA ROMANO: I know. Would it -- would it be a --

SADY SULLIVAN: This is interesting that in Hawaii there was a show about Harlem. That's a really -- that's really interesting.

WESLEY FAGAN: And from -- and from -- from Hawaii I went to Okinawa. Two -- two days behind the invasion. They -- they made me put the saxophone down. And, uh, this is when I was in -- when I was in -- when I was in Hawaii, see. And that's me in -- that's me when I was in Hawaii, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, wow.

JANE GREEN: You mean in Okinawa. This was Hawaii.

DANIELLA ROMANO: Would it be okay -- would it be okay for us to -- would it be okay for us to scan these too so that we have your service --

WILL SUMMERS: During his time, because I'm from Harlem, that was a Renaissance time, most of the great musicians lived uptown.

DANIELLA ROMANO: -- World War II service? Yeah?

JANE GREEN: Well sure. You can anything. Just give me a paper.

DANIELLA ROMANO: Yeah? Okay. Because he doesn't -- I want to take the Okinawa book too. Because then there's a full story. Maybe not the later stuff but--

JANE GREEN: Okay. All right.

SADY SULLIVAN: I wonder -- I'm surprised that the -- that the Army was, like, being aware of what was going -- you know what I mean?

DANIELLA ROMANO: Make sure it's okay with him.

WILL SUMMERS: No, well see Harlem was well known throughout the world.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah, yeah, no, I know that.

JANE GREEN: She says she wants to take these pictures too and --

WILL SUMMERS: So it's not -- it's not surprising that they would recognize that.

WESLEY FAGAN: Huh?

JANE GREEN: As long as you give -- as long as you give him a paper for each --

DANIELLA ROMANO: Right.

JANE GREEN: -- each thing that you're taking. That's all.

DANIELLA ROMANO: Well it's all listed. I want to take the World War II service material.

JANE GREEN: Oh. Oh, okay.

DANIELLA ROMANO: Okay.

JANE GREEN: All right.

WESLEY FAGAN: Make him -- Marie McKellas [phonetic] is that her name?

DANIELLA ROMANO: Where's that sheet again?

WESLEY FAGAN: The lady that owned the Empire State Building, the, the -- Marie -- what was her name?

DANIELLA ROMANO: I don't know.

WESLEY FAGAN: What was her name?

JANE GREEN: Who?

DANIELLA ROMANO: Do you have the sheet?

WESLEY FAGAN: You remember -- remember her name?

JANE GREEN: What'd I do with the other sheet?

WESLEY FAGAN: That owned the -- the -- she had a share in the Empire State Building. Marie Ma -- McKennon [phonetic]?

JANE GREEN: Ma -- Marie?

WESLEY FAGAN: Anyway, I played --she gave -- she gave $10,000 to -- to the Department of Aging.

DANIELLA ROMANO: Where is -- ?

WESLEY FAGAN: My band played for an affair you know and her husband --

JANE GREEN: You sure you don't have both of them?

DANIELLA ROMANO: I don't have it.

WESLEY FAGAN: I had to write on them.

DANIELLA ROMANO: Oh wait no I do.

JANE GREEN: Oh, that's what I thought.

DANIELLA ROMANO: Liar. [laughter]

JANE GREEN: Because I knew I laid it right here and it's not here anymore.

DANIELLA ROMANO: No you're right. You're right. You're spot on.

JANE GREEN: Okay. Okay

WILL SUMMERS: Mr. Fagan, Sady was interested in who organized the show and how'd it become, like, "the Harlem." Do you remember?

WESLEY FAGAN: The -- the part of the -- the part of the Army was -- the musical part of the Army. What's that -- ?

WILL SUMMERS: Like the USO?

WESLEY FAGAN: Yeah. The USO. Part of the USO. Yeah.

WILL SUMMERS: Okay.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

JANE GREEN: All right.

DANIELLA ROMANO: Look. I really -- we should --

JANE GREEN: You got your answer.

WESLEY FAGAN: And this fellow --

DANIELLA ROMANO: -- while the energy is up --

WESLEY FAGAN: -- of course, I -- I know you don't remember but this fellow, this fellow here --

DANIELLA ROMANO: Okay, that's it. [laughter]

JANE GREEN: So you're taking this and that.

DANIELLA ROMANO: Yup.

WESLEY FAGAN: This fellow here is Ernest Mor -- Ernest Morrison.

JANE GREEN: You want the Okinawa book you said, too, right?

WESLEY FAGAN: He was -- he was in the Dead End Kids. The three -- three Dead End Kids, three kids.

WILL SUMMERS: Yeah.

WESLEY FAGAN: Years ago.

WILL SUMMERS: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: He was the one that they, they called Sapphire or something like that.

WILL SUMMERS: Get out of here!

WESLEY FAGAN: This is -- this is in here.

WILL SUMMERS: All right.

WESLEY FAGAN: See, he was -- and most of all these -- most of all these entertainers were from New York, uh, you know, and were in the service.

SADY SULLIVAN: That's so interesting.

JANE GREEN: Really?

WESLEY FAGAN: They were in the service.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah, well, that the -- you know you'd think -- okay we have a national band, it's going to be people from every -- but like that it's mostly New York, that's really cool.

WESLEY FAGAN: See that's him there, see. They were all in the service. All, all professional.

DANIELLA ROMANO: Mm-hmm.

SADY SULLIVAN: That is really cool.

WESLEY FAGAN: But -- but -- but they made us put the show down and they sent us to Okinawa.

JANE GREEN: They sent you to Okinawa.

WILL SUMMERS: Well, I'm glad you had this history because we sure did our part. And I'm proud to have met you, sir.

JANE GREEN: [laughter]

DANIELLA ROMANO: There you are, that's beautiful.

JANE GREEN: Oh, I'm glad.

DANIELLA ROMANO: Okay. We are going to -- while the energy is up, you know, because Sady is going to be talking --

JANE GREEN: Right.

DANIELLA ROMANO: -- that's her thing.

WESLEY FAGAN: That's me playing there.

WILL SUMMERS: And that's Dizzy Gillespie there.

WESLEY FAGAN: Yeah.

JANE GREEN: Yeah, you know?

WESLEY FAGAN: This, this picture here --

WILL SUMMERS: That's [inaudible] part of my family.

JANE GREEN: Really?

WESLEY FAGAN: These, these -- this man --

WILL SUMMERS: Yes, I have some [inaudible] in my family also.

WESLEY FAGAN: This, this -- this is a symphony by Prince Hall, uh, Masons. And that's me playing the clarinet. Clarinet, see, there. That's me there playing the clarinet.

SADY SULLIVAN: So you play clarinet and saxophone.

WESLEY FAGAN: I went to Juilliard.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

WILL SUMMERS: Whoa.

DANIELLA ROMANO: I want the whole story.

SADY SULLIVAN: So we have -- let's get started. Let's start with when you were born. Let's start at the beginning

DANIELLA ROMANO: Okay. Okay.

WILL SUMMERS: Mr. Fagan, Mr. Fagan --

WESLEY FAGAN: I studied clarinet.

SADY SULLIVAN: Let's start at the beginning!

DANIELLA ROMANO: I'm going to go.

WILL SUMMERS: -- it is a pleasure to meet you.

WESLEY FAGAN: That's my -- that's my mother.

WILL SUMMERS: She's a beautiful woman.

JANE GREEN: Yeah, yeah

WESLEY FAGAN: That's my -- my sister.

WILL SUMMERS: Very stylish also.

JANE GREEN: All right, yes.

WESLEY FAGAN: That's my sister here.

DANIELLA ROMANO: Right here. Beautiful.

WESLEY FAGAN: She died young. She was, she was ninety -- she was about ninety-six years old.

JANE GREEN: They're -- they're long livers.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

WESLEY FAGAN: That's my other sister and that's me. That's me in Okinawa. That's me in Okinawa there.

DANIELLA ROMANO: I guess.

JANE GREEN: He just turned a hundred in December.

SADY SULLIVAN: That's amazing. That's so cool

WESLEY FAGAN: They're dropping bombs all round. This is my -- this is my wife. Present wife.

DANIELLA ROMANO: Look at how beautiful.

WESLEY FAGAN: The one that was --

SADY SULLIVAN: Okay, Mr. Fagan.

JANE GREEN: Okay, they gotta -- they gotta go.

WESLEY FAGAN: That's--that's my first wife.

DANIELLA ROMANO: Ugh. Kills me. [laughter] Look at the sexy jumper, right?

JANE GREEN: He knew how to pick them, right?

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah, that is cute.

DANIELLA ROMANO: I know, I want one.

WESLEY FAGAN: That's -- that's me and my sister.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh!

JANE GREEN: Yeah when they were little children. [laughter]

DANIELLA ROMANO: You're still just as cute.

JANE GREEN: Oh boy. [laughter]

DANIELLA ROMANO: Oh listen, he's got all the women flirting.

JANE GREEN: That's nice.

WILL SUMMERS: Okay, well, Mr. Fagan, I'll see you next week with Daniella.

WESLEY FAGAN: This is -- this is on the sea trial. Whenever they finish the ship in, in the Navy Yard they go out for maneuvers you know.

DANIELLA ROMANO: Yup.

WESLEY FAGAN: And they --

SADY SULLIVAN: And you were invited out.

WESLEY FAGAN: -- they took me along to photograph you know, [inaudible] ships coming back in.

WILL SUMMERS: All right, sir.

DANIELLA ROMANO: All right, well from --

JANE GREEN: Okay. They got to go now. They'll be back next Friday.

WESLEY FAGAN: Yeah, okay, all right. Okay, all right.

DANIELLA ROMANO: I know, well --

WESLEY FAGAN: You'll take care of my, my -- my books right?

WILL SUMMERS: Yes, sir, she will.

JANE GREEN: You need a bag to put that in or something?

WESLEY FAGAN: -- you got, you have -- how many --

DANIELLA ROMANO: I think I'm okay to carry it.

WESLEY FAGAN: -- you got three?

WILL SUMMERS: She has --

DANIELLA ROMANO: One, two, three. I've got Okinawa, I have Harlem Callin' --

JANE GREEN: Right. And, and the 100th birthday.

DANIELLA ROMANO: The sea trials.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: So you don't have nothing.

SADY SULLIVAN: Do you want --

DANIELLA ROMANO: Should I take the -- the sea trials photo?

WILL SUMMERS: Oh, boy.

DANIELLA ROMANO: Okay, okay, Will, sorry.

WILL SUMMERS: No, no, that was just me, that was just me, that had nothing to do with this, this was very invigorating.

DANIELLA ROMANO: Yeah, um, where is the sea trials?

JANE GREEN: What, what you want?

DANIELLA ROMANO: May I --

WESLEY FAGAN: What, what -- which one you want?

DANIELLA ROMANO: The sea trials photo. And that. Is that in here?

JANE GREEN: I don't think so.

WESLEY FAGAN: I -- I -- I don't think so.

JANE GREEN: I don't think so.

DANIELLA ROMANO: Okay.

WESLEY FAGAN: You can take that. I got [inaudible].

DANIELLA ROMANO: That and the sea trial and then the hull. Well, I've got the hull in the other book, right? But just these for bio --

WESLEY FAGAN: I think -- I don't know. I don't --

JANE GREEN: Okay.

DANIELLA ROMANO: -- for bio photos.

WESLEY FAGAN: You can take that out if you want.

DANIELLA ROMANO: Okay, okay.

JANE GREEN: Take -- yeah.

WESLEY FAGAN: I don't think it's in there.

JANE GREEN: I don't think so either.

WILL SUMMERS: Yeah, Ms. Green --

JANE GREEN: Yes, dear.

WILL SUMMERS: -- if you do have something that we can transport them in, that would be great.

DANIELLA ROMANO: Yeah, thank you. A bag. Thank you, Will.

WESLEY FAGAN: No it's not in there.

JANE GREEN: Like I told them, she keeps so much stuff.

WILL SUMMERS: Uh-huh.

JANE GREEN: Yeah I know there's plenty of bags.

DANIELLA ROMANO: Here let's be careful with this. This one is fragile. [laughter] Okay.

WESLEY FAGAN: All these are doubles.

DANIELLA ROMANO: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: My supervisor and I took this picture together. In, in fact, he, he -- he took it and I, I handled the camera.

DANIELLA ROMANO: You told me. You set up the lights.

WESLEY FAGAN: You won't believe this. You won't believe this. But every time -- every time an, uh, an aircraft carrier come to the Naval Shipyard, the mast had to be removed because it couldn't come under the Brooklyn Bridge. So they -- they always go to Bayonne, New Jersey. And they take the mast down. They gave me a work order. They wanted pictures between the bridge and the mast as the, as the ship goes in. So -- so they gave me the job. But I can't prove it.

JANE GREEN: Is that big enough to put everything in?

DANIELLA ROMANO: I think so.

WILL SUMMERS: I think so. Mr. Fagan, we're going to borrow your briefcase and return everything next week.

JANE GREEN: Okay?

WILL SUMMERS: Is that all right with you?

WESLEY FAGAN: Yeah, yeah. There's nothing in -- nothing in here.

JANE GREEN: No, no, it's nothing in there.

WILL SUMMERS: No, no, there's nothing in there.

WESLEY FAGAN: Because my -- I usually keep my income taxes in it.

JANE GREEN: Oh, I -- I -- I -- I -- I got them in a safe place.

DANIELLA ROMANO: No money?

WESLEY FAGAN: Oh, okay.

JANE GREEN: I have them.

WESLEY FAGAN: Yeah okay. I rode on -- this is the Intrepid here. I rode on the top of this Intrepid. I got a work order. They got a work order.

DANIELLA ROMANO: Okay this works.

WESLEY FAGAN: Wanted a picture. So they gave me --

WILL SUMMERS: I see. Does it close?

WESLEY FAGAN: -- the job to do it, see.

WILL SUMMERS: All right sir.

DANIELLA ROMANO: Oh gosh is it going to open?

WESLEY FAGAN: But I can't prove it, see, I can't prove I was in there.

DANIELLA ROMANO: Is it going to open again? Yeah, okay. I'm just going to --

WILL SUMMERS: Yeah hold it like that.

DANIELLA ROMANO: Carefully. All right.

WESLEY FAGAN: That's my life and work you got there.

DANIELLA ROMANO: I know.

WESLEY FAGAN: And did you get one of the pictures of my -- my --

DANIELLA ROMANO: Yeah. I love that photo with you in the hard hat --

WESLEY FAGAN: Okay, you didn't get this though.

DANIELLA ROMANO: -- with your name and title, that tells it all.

WESLEY FAGAN: You didn't -- you didn't get that one.

DANIELLA ROMANO: No I didn't get that one. But I got the Harlem Callin'. I got the -- I got your band. The World War II band photos.

WESLEY FAGAN: Okay. You have my life savings now.

DANIELLA ROMANO: I know.

WESLEY FAGAN: That's my life's work. That's the beginning of it. What you have 24:00there is from '30, '34. But I have a history, uh, that -- before that that -- that I haven't even recorded, see. How I was working --

SADY SULLIVAN: Well that's we're gonna -- that's what we'll start. We're going to start with when you were born and we're going to move forward a hundred years.

DANIELLA ROMANO: And while the energy is still up, you know, while he's --

WESLEY FAGAN: When I was in Buffalo, New York --

DANIELLA ROMANO: Maybe make him a cup of tea or something. [laughter]

WESLEY FAGAN: -- I worked in a machine gun plant. See, they made me give up playing the music saxophone.

JANE GREEN: That was big enough?

DANIELLA ROMANO: It's perfect, snug as a bug.

WESLEY FAGAN: -- or go in the service. So they hired -- they hired five to ten of us as porters.

WILL SUMMERS: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: This machine gun in -- in -- in Buffalo, New York. Machine gun plant. And they, they hired ten of us, see. But they didn't know I had a college education.

JANE GREEN: You've got the pictures out of here that you wanted?

DANIELLA ROMANO: Should I take the childhood photo too?

WESLEY FAGAN: I worked as a porter and they were bringing -- they were bringing kids in the -- white kids in there and, and -- and paying them you know. And -- 25:00and here I went to -- to a trade school. I went to -- to Buffalo, uh, trade school. Learned how to operate machinery.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

DANIELLA ROMANO: This is a photocopy.

WESLEY FAGAN: And I was lucky. The -- the fellow that hired people at -- at -- at the -- at the machine gun plant. He was retired from -- from -- from the school that I attended, see. Here I'm sweeping and he's bringing these students in there, paying him fifty cents an hour. So I got angry about it and threw my broom down and asked for a better job, see. So he tells me that the -- the foreman has taught you how to sweep. And how to recognize dirt on the machine. I said you should be ashamed to sit there and say something like that.

DANIELLA ROMANO: Unbelievable.

WILL SUMMERS: Absolutely.

WESLEY FAGAN: I'd [inaudible]. I said I -- I finished a course at the school that you -- you retired from as a machinist. So he told me go back to the machine and I'll see what I can do for you, Mr. Fagan. I went back to the 26:00machine. The next day they put me on the machine.

SADY SULLIVAN: Ah.

WESLEY FAGAN: I worked on the machine.

WILL SUMMERS: All right sir.

WESLEY FAGAN: This is important to me.

DANIELLA ROMANO: Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

WILL SUMMERS: It's important to me also.

WESLEY FAGAN: I worked on the machine. I worked on the machine for about -- I guess about a year or maybe six month. And a young man that sets up the machine for the workers when they come in. Young -- younger than I. He called me not by my name. He used the N word, see. I refused to work. I refused to work.

DANIELLA ROMANO: Uh-huh. Jeez.

WESLEY FAGAN: So they told me --

SADY SULLIVAN: This was in Buffalo?

WESLEY FAGAN: This is on a Friday. So he told me that, uh, we -- we'll bring charges against you. But the supervisor is in Detroit buying parts for the plant. And we had to wait for him to come for your trial, see. So when he came -- when he came that Monday he called me in the office and he said to me, all he said to me, "Mr. Fagan." Said "I read your -- your -- your -- your -- your resume. And I see where you had been to college and you had majored in trigonometry and math and all." So what about me putting in a gauge lathe. He 27:00said nothing to me about the [inaudible]. They put me in -- in one of the highest paying jobs in, in the machine gun plant. Yeah.

WILL SUMMERS: All right sir. Well, it's -- it's because of you that strides that we made today.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WILL SUMMERS: Thank you very much.

JANE GREEN: They -- they got to go now. So they'll be back.

DANIELLA ROMANO: Well and she needs to record this. Okay? We need to --

WESLEY FAGAN: I have more to tell but I-- [laughter]

DANIELLA ROMANO: For the recording..

WILL SUMMERS: Well we're going to hear the full dialogue.

JANE GREEN: [laughter]

DANIELLA ROMANO: Good. So good to see you. Thank you. This is great. All right, Sady.

SADY SULLIVAN: Okay!

DANIELLA ROMANO: I'll talk to you later.

SADY SULLIVAN: So, um, this is -- I'm very excited. Um, let's get right started. I'm going to just -- okay. So we're going to get started recording. Um, I'm starting the recording now. So today is March 11th, 2011. And I'm here at the home of Mr. Fagan. And, um, if you would introduce yourself to the recording. So, um, your name to the recording.

WESLEY FAGAN: Um, my name is Wesley L. Fagan.

SADY SULLIVAN: And how old are you?

WESLEY FAGAN: At present I'm a hundred and three months.

SADY SULLIVAN: That's wonderful. And what's --

WESLEY FAGAN: My birthday was [date redacted for privacy], 1910.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow. And where were you born?

WESLEY FAGAN: I was born in Portsmouth, Virginia. Portsmouth, Virginia. And, and -- uh, 909 Glasgow Street, Portsmouth, Virginia.

SADY SULLIVAN: Ah. And tell me about your parents.

WESLEY FAGAN: Uh, [inaudible].

SADY SULLIVAN: Tell me a little bit about your parents, your mother and father.

WESLEY FAGAN: My parents. Uh, it was four of us. Two girls and two boys. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, my father was a -- was a barber. He had his own small barber 29:00shop. And I finished from Norcom High School. And my father was unable to send me to college. But I was the oldest. And my sister, uh, she graduated, uh, six months after I, I graduated. But he was able to send her to nursing school because all -- all he had to do was to pay for her clothes. Everything else was free. So she attended the school in -- in -- in Richmond, Virginia. In the nursing home. Where she got her degree from nursing. And I was a mu -- professional musician, uh, playing in the orchestra in my hometown and also with 30:00a band called the Metropolitan Band. We used to play funerals, play dances. But mostly funerals on Sundays. And we got three dollars, uh, for each -- each performance at the funeral. And I saved a hundred dollars. And with fifty dollars in each shoe, I entered Clark College in Atlanta, Georgia, eh, as a work student. I worked in the kitchen. Uh, I worked in the kitchen with pots and pans and also I joined an, uh, an orchestra in the city, uh, that we, we used to play for all the schools: uh, Morehouse College, Spelman and all, all the colleges, we used to play affairs. And that helped me with my tuition. Also on my camp -- 31:00on the campus at Clark College, it was a college at that time, see. Uh, I, I -- then I was promoted to janitorial position, uh, from the kitchen. But I only spent two years at the college. And later -- last -- this past -- this past, uh -- uh, uh, uh, in Dec -- in December I gave $50,000 to my college for -- I felt that it was my -- my duty because they gave me the privilege of attending the college. So -- so I gave them fifty thousand dollars--

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow.

WESLEY FAGAN: -- out of my -- my -- my savings. With my wife -- my wife's part of it. But I only spent two years at the college. And from there -- then, uh, my 32:00life was changed, and I returned back home. And I went to Buffalo, New York. Uh, my uncle -- visit -- visit my hometown. And I understand he was a musician. And -- and, uh, he said that he lived in Buffalo, New York. So he asked me "why -- why don't you come to Buffalo and play with us," you know. So I was under the impression that he had a big band in Buffalo, New York. And then the place, ahem, the job that I had in Portsmouth, I was working for three -- the Vane Brothers. And I was making seven dollars a week. And, uh, I was janitor. And I was -- now I'm delivery boy and everything else. And, uh, I was only making 33:00seven dollars a week. So he said why don't you come to -- come to Buffalo with me. So we got permission from my father. And so I went to Buffalo. And there I -- where my life as a musician began to blossom. And while I was in Buffalo -- while I was in Buffalo I joined Stuff Smith's, uh, the great jazz violin, orchestra, and we used to play for Joe Louis and all, all the big dignitaries and all the -- Billy Eckstine. I used to -- I used to play for all of them. The, uh-- and then while I was -- while I was a musician I went to the main, uh, the 34:00trade school in Buffalo, New York where I learned machine shop practices. And I, I studied evenings before working at the club. And I received a diploma from the school. The Selective Service Board offered me -- me an offer. Either get a job or be put in the service, see. I accepted the job at Buffalo Arms Service in Buffalo, New York as a -- as a porter. I fought my way up from -- from -- from 35:00the porter to operating one of the machines. Then I was promoted from -- from the machine to the precision gauge lab where -- where I learned how to, uh, measure gauge through trigonometry, through mathematics. Then I, ahem, organized an orchestra while I was at the, the machine gun plant. And I entered the Army in for -- in 1944 to '46. And when I retired from the service I, I settled in 36:00Brooklyn, New York. I -- I -- my first job was at the -- at Manhattan Beach Hospital, which is now LaGuardia College, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh yeah.

WESLEY FAGAN: And I was there working in the cancer ward. And from -- from the cancer ward, then during that, uh, next summer I entered Juilliard, for the, for majoring on -- on clarinet. And from -- and from Juilliard, the end of the summer, I went to NYU to further my education, you know, for one year. And from -- and when -- when the end of the school year, I accepted a job at To -- Totem 37:00Lodge, a summer resort up near Albany, New York, with -- with -- with my -- with my, uh, young lady who got me the job, who became my wife then. So after -- after -- after, um -- after finishing for the summer at -- at the Totem Lodge we -- we came to Brooklyn and we bought this -- bought this house.

SADY SULLIVAN: This house that we're in.

WESLEY FAGAN: Bought this house.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh wow.

WESLEY FAGAN: In the '50s, see. In 1950s. With little -- little money. She -- she worked as a maid you know. And I, I did -- I did the work as a porter. And -- and they -- although I was a member of 802 musician union, uh, they wouldn't 38:00let me play, uh, with the orchestra at -- at this club. But they allowed me to wait tables. And they wouldn't let me work in the dining room even. But only they gave me the privilege of -- of -- of -- of working doing -- doing the nightclub. Uh, as -- and then I used to play during the show, my saxophone. And they used to throw money on the floor, you know, one -- one of those things back then. And this is how I made a little more money than before. Then when we moved, when we came, uh, to Brooklyn at the end of the summer and bought this house, then we got four foster kids. We got three brothers, three brothers and 39:00-- and one girl. And they were all -- they were all -- they grew up and became famous in their own -- own way. The -- the youngest became a gifted pianist. And he -- and won a, a, a -- a lot of contests. When the teachers had a contest at Carnegie Hall he used to come in second and third, you know every, year. He was good on piano. And the oldest boy, uh -- oldest boy when he graduated from -- from Boys' High, he had -- he had won one of the games from Boys' High as a football player, see. He got a scholarship to Morgan College because the schools had, had -- was filled up with the -- with their own students. Uh, he was unable 40:00to attend the college. So he enlisted in the Air Force. And he -- he retired, as far as I knew of, he retired as a master sergeant in the Air Force.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: He was -- the last I heard of him he was -- uh, he lived only a couple of blocks from the Oklahoma City when, when that explosion blew up that building. He lived only a small, uh, short distance from there. And, uh, he had to move. But I lost contact with him. I -- I have no idea where he is now. But, uh, what I had learned that he had become a master sergeant in the -- retired in the Air Force, see. And then the middle boy Alex, he -- he --he -- he served a 41:00lot of time in prison, you know, uh, because of integration at the time, uh, the school that he was sent to, that we got him into, they -- they didn't treat him properly. The kids used to pull his hair and call him all kinds of names. So he had problems with him not attending school, you know.

SADY SULLIVAN: Was that a school in Brooklyn?

WESLEY FAGAN: This is the middle boy.

SADY SULLIVAN: Was it in Brooklyn, that school?

WESLEY FAGAN: Hmm?

SADY SULLIVAN: Was it in Brooklyn, that school?

WESLEY FAGAN: Yeah in Brooklyn. Yeah, oh, Fort Hamilton. Fort Hamilton.

SADY SULLIVAN: Fort Hamilton High School.

WESLEY FAGAN: The school out there. My minister, Reverend Galamison, was one of the -- the causes of, uh, integrating, uh, kids, see. And by me belonging to that church, uh he got the kids out there. And -- and they used to pick on him. He spent a lot of time in prison. And -- and I became -- during my -- my -- my work years, I became the head of the photo lab at the Brooklyn -- at the -- at 42:00Fort Hamilton and Fort Wadsworth. I was supervisor.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: In fact I was, uh -- I was the -- I worked at the Brooklyn Navy Yard until they closed. And the government offered me supervisor of, of, of -- of the photo lab in Fort Hamilton and Fort Wadsworth.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: And with the little pull that I had I got him in the service, see. So he -- he went -- he went in the service. And he won nine medals.

SADY SULLIVAN: I saw. Yeah.

WESLEY FAGAN: You saw the picture [inaudible].

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: And, uh -- but he died with AIDS. And I buried him out in the veterans' cemetery in Riverhead. And my -- my -- the piano player and, and my -- my deceased wife, the Indian --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: -- were very close.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: They were very close, see. And she used to have him playing at different churches and around, and she let him drive the car [inaudible]. So when he -- when she died he went all to pieces you know. And he lost -- he lost, uh, he he -- he moved. He moved over to Spanish Harlem. And, uh, they, they found him dead in one of the apartments there. I never knew the results for what happened to him, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: I lost contact with him.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: So that's -- the girl that we had, her father used to visit her during -- during his, uh, uh -- when we got her she, I think she was about seven or eight months old when we got her. But he lived in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. So he used to come and visit her monthly, weekly, bring her things, you know, that 44:00he shouldn't have. And we kept her until she became fifteen or sixteen years old. And she began to lose her mind. She -- she -- she's attended almost all of the psychiatric hospitals in -- in, uh -- in, uh -- in Brooklyn and in, in -- then a couple of others out of town. And she went to Pilgrim State. But -- but we -- we kept her until she was about -- I guess about, uh, fourteen or fifteen years old, see. So we had her -- her -- her father and I, we had her transferred to Pennsylvania, see. So she moved to Pennsylvania. And they found a home for her. So I haven't seen her in about ten years. And -- and she's -- she's probably in her fifties or sixties or something. But I understand that she's 45:00still living there. That was [inaudible].

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: I live alone. I live alone. My wife -- my present wife, uh, is in -- in the nursing home. Concord Nursing Home.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: She's been there over seven years with Alzheimer's disease.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

WESLEY FAGAN: And, uh -- and I visit her two or three times a week, see. And she lives only a very short distance from -- from me, and from my home, see. So that's -- that's my life. That's part -- that's a part of my life.

SADY SULLIVAN: I -- I have -- I have lots of questions. Can I -- can I ask some questions?

WESLEY FAGAN: Yes.

SADY SULLIVAN: Okay, um, are your parents -- were your parents also from Virginia?

WESLEY FAGAN: Yes. My -- my parents, yes -- from Virginia yeah, yeah, yeah. My father was born in -- father was born in Vir -- Virginia. And my mother, I understand that she was born in Richmond, Virginia, then.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. And, um, what about your grandparents? Did you know your grandparents?

WESLEY FAGAN: I knew my grandmother. But, uh -- and, uh -- but I, I didn't know her husband. She had, ahem -- she -- I think she had two husbands, but I don't remember them. But, um, my grandmother, I remember her. She was a charwoman for the school there, cleaning. Because I used to go and turn up the seats when I was very young, see. And then she used to sell candy. She used to make some kind of candy, and, uh, and roll it up and cut it, and little sticks in center, then sell it a penny apiece. I remember that as a kid. And then in the meantime when I became I imagine around fourteen, fifteen years old, I -- I worked with the, 47:00uh -- at the bakery. And just a block from where I lived with a, um, uh, a man named Mister -- I think his name was Turner. He -- he delivered food to the neighborhood. Morning bread and all. And I worked with him before school time. And he was a musician. He played clarinet in, in -- in an orchestra. So I used to visit the band room they used for rehearsal on Sundays. And he sold me his clarinet for fifty dollars. A clarinet for fifty dollars. That's how I started my musical career, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow.

WESLEY FAGAN: As a musician, see. When I was very young. And I was interested in Duke Ellington and, uh -- and Earl Hines and all. As a musician, young kid, see. 48:00And I followed that, then I began to take lessons. That's how I got my musical training.

SADY SULLIVAN: Who was -- who was your teacher? Who did you take lessons from?

WESLEY FAGAN: I -- I took -- I took lessons from one of the, uh, uh, musicians for fifty cents an hour I think. That's what he charged me, fifty cents an hour it would be. Bu, butt after -- after being with him I was introduced with a -- uh, I think he was a, uh, a Polish fellow that was a clarinet player in the US Army band at the -- at the Norfolk Naval Shipyard. I think he was -- I think he was -- he was a member of the band, see. And I took lessons from him, see. And -- and -- and then that's when I -- I started playing in the band in my hometown. And in the orchestra. And playing for funerals for three dollars. 49:00That's how I saved fifty dollars for each shoe for going to college, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: You got three dollars, three dollars a funeral. We play the funeral marches going to the cemetery. And coming back the New Orleans style. We play jazz and, you know, Tiger Rag and all the different, uh, jazz numbers coming back you know.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

WESLEY FAGAN: And I, I -- I enjoyed it as a young man. I was the youngest, uh, musician in the band, see. And all much older. But most -- most of the members of the band, my father used to cut their hair and -- and, uh, he had them take care of me you know. And that's how I got my musical training, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: So in Virginia would that kind of -- would it be called a second line? The same as in New Orleans? Or is it different?

WESLEY FAGAN: Well -- well my father gave me -- uh, when I was quite young -- and I have a picture of it someplace. Uh, I was probably about fourteen or maybe 50:00fifteen years old. He gave me a, uh, a Kodak box camera. And that's how I started with my photography. And -- and I used to take pictures of my mother and father. And I would -- would tie the camera to -- to the rail, and, uh, somehow or other use it to take my picture with my clarinet. And I have them. And so that's how I started with my -- with photography. And so when -- when I went, ahem -- when I went to -- when I joined the Army, uh, uh -- before I was joining the Army, when I was a musician in Buffalo, New York, the proprietor used to allow me to take pictures of the customers during my -- during the band's intermission. See, she allowed me in. And, see, Buffalo is near Canada, see. And it was good business for her because I promised the pictures the next time they 51:00come, see, and then they'd come. So she gave me that privilege. And -- and I did -- I did my own darkroom here in my own home. See, darkroom in, in my basement. And, and also the -- no, not in the basement here. This is in Buffalo, New York. And then from -- from -- from there, when I got out of the service I went to photography school. Germain Photography. Germain Photography School on Broadway under -- under the GI Bill. And I had been doing photography work in, in -- in the Army while I was in the Army, because I was in charge of the projector showing the pictures -- the projector and doing photography work while I was in the service. And even while I was in Okinawa I, I built a, uh, darkroom in -- in 52:00-- in -- in my company when I did my photography. I used to do photography of all the area for -- for the pilots. They used to bring me the negatives to make pictures of them. Photography has always been a part of my life, see. So when I got out of the service then I, uh -- I went to photography school. And from photography school, uh, that's when I went to the Navy Yard. I -- I went to the Navy Yard as a -- as a -- they wouldn't give me a job as a machinist. Because although I had been -- was highly recommended on account of I had been -- worked in the Buffalo machine gun plant, and -- and I was a machinist then. But they wouldn't give me a job. But at the Navy Yard they gave me a job as -- as a messenger in the mailroom. And I delivered mail to all the shops in the Navy 53:00Yard. And an examination for an opening for photographer came and was posted on the bulletin board. And they had to give those in the service opportunity for the job before they applied to the public. And so I applied for the job, see. By fate, somehow or other, I was selected as the photographer out of several, see. I can't remember whether it's because I was number one. I think number one --I think when I became number one is after I was at the Navy Yard. Because at -- at -- at the Navy Yard as a photographer I, I -- I had to make up the chemicals myself. All the chemicals.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: All the developing chemicals. And I, I was in charge of a -- of a 54:00blueprint, a huge blueprint machine. And I had to make up chemicals there. So when I took the examination I knew all the answers, see. And I had the experience. So I think this was after I became number one on the list, see. But, uh, I worked there as a photographer for the Navy Yard. And when the Navy Yard -- when the Navy Yard, uh, uh, at the Navy Yard, uh, I was bumped, ahem, from my job after several years as a photographer. Uh, Uh, I think I had been a photographer and -- and, uh -- I was bumped by -- by -- by -- by another photographer. But only for one, uh, short while. But they gave me -- they gave me -- they found out that -- that there -- there's a -- there was a material 55:00lab, a part of the Navy Yard, that did scientific work, see. This was separate from the Navy Yard but it was still in the Navy Yard. They call it material lab. They did all top secret work. And they found out that I -- that, that I was available. So they -- they -- they hired me right away, see. And they gave me top secret clearance. Top secret -- top clearance. And somehow or other the supervisor at the Navy Yard at the photo lab, he retired. So they then -- they canceled my job as a -- at material lab. And sent me back to photograph to be in charge of the photo lab. And I was the only one. I closed the lab. I definitely closed the lab. I was the last, uh, one to close the lab.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

WESLEY FAGAN: They moved my lab across the street from the post off -- from the 56:00Navy Yard to the receiving station right on the corner of Vanderbilt and Flatbush. Receiving station. That's where they used to hold -- keep the prisoners and all. And, and -- and they had a small lab there. I had a very small lab there. They phased me out at the -- at the -- at the receiving station. They found out that, that, that -- that I was making -- I have -- I have a letter from -- from -- from -- a personal letter from -- eh, you can see it -- from -- from the Navy Yard. This -- this is from the Department of the 57:00Army, the headquarters in Fort Hamilton. They said "dear Mr. Fagan, your name has -- has been referred to us as a priority placement certified under the Department of Defense. Vacancy at this installation at Fort Hamilton." So they offered me the -- the job as supervisor of the photo lab at the Fort Hamilton.

SADY SULLIVAN: And that's because the Navy Yard was closing, right?

WESLEY FAGAN: The Navy Yard closed. I'm in the street now, see. I'm in -- I'm in the street, see, from what Navy Yard, couple weeks, see. I'm in the street. Couple weeks. And they -- they -- they offered me this job. And there -- there were two. I was a, uh, a GS-7 at the time, see. And, uh -- and I had top secret 58:00clearance and I, I was qualified. At that time Fort Hamilton was under the jurisdiction of the Army. It had -- their own sergeant was in charge of the photo lab. They civilianized and -- and put me -- put me in charge. There were two fellows. There were two photographers that worked at Governors Island. There was a Jewish fellow -- Jewish fellow and a -- and an Italian fellow. They closed Governors Island. This is when I was at the Navy Yard. They closed Governors Island and they sent them to Fort Hamilton, see. So they worked under the sergeant who was in charge of it. When -- when they, they -- they hired me and civilianized, they put me in charge of them. And I had problems with them the 59:00whole time, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Why?

WESLEY FAGAN: I had a lot of problems with them. They did a lot of things. Tried to get me out of the job, see. They even wrote to the President of the United States --

SADY SULLIVAN: Hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: -- that I was bringing black power within -- within the organization, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: And I knew nothing about black power at the time. I knew about white power. But I didn't know nothing about black power, see. And -- and they -- but I -- I received a call from -- from Fort Meade, who was, uh, in charge of the Fort Hamilton and Fort Wadsworth from a high officer to fire these two guys, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: But I couldn't fire them because they were civ -- they were civil service, you know. [inaudible] But they gave me a hard time while I was there.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: And I, I retired from -- I retired from -- from -- from -- from 60:00Fort Hamilton. And when I retired from Fort Hamilton the two of them gave me a big party. They gave me -- they gave me presents and everything else, you know.

SADY SULLIVAN: Huh.

WESLEY FAGAN: Glad to get rid of me I guess.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter] Or you had won them over.

WESLEY FAGAN: They -- they gave -- they gave me a party, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY GAFAN: And in the meantime -- in the meantime, uh, uh, they closed -- they phased the photo lab out altogether after I left, see. So then -- then when -- when -- when -- when I -- I retired from -- from the -- from -- from Fort Hamilton and Fort Wadsworth, uh, after twenty-two years, I think it's twenty-two years, uh, I went with transit.

SADY SULLIVAN: What?

WESLEY FAGAN: I went with transit.

SADY SULLIVAN: What's that?

WESLEY FAGAN: I worked at --

JANE GREEN: Transit. Transit.

WESLEY FAGAN: -- Metropolitan --

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, transit!

JANE GREEN: Transit.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah. As a photographer?

WESLEY FAGAN: No. I, I -- I worked in a booth.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

WESLEY FAGAN: I worked in a booth.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: They had a job. They had a job opening for a photographer. They needed a photographer. But they wouldn't give it to me, you know. And with all the experience I had, see. So I accepted the -- I passed the examination. My wife -- my wife at that time was the -- the -- from, uh -- we both took the examination. And we both passed, see. And so they -- I accepted a job as a -- as, uh, a railroad clerk, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: I worked in a booth, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: And I worked -- I worked, uh, with the --under the Cox administration. And at that time, the Cox -- uh, the Metropolitan -- the, the, the transit had a transit band. And we used to play all the parades up Fifth 62:00Avenue. Puerto Rican day parade, Irish parade. And, and -- all types of parade. We used to play, the transit, see. And that's -- I was still working in the booth, see. And from -- and from transit -- from transit, uh, I worked, at that time they were all wooden booths. And, and, uh, the girl, one of the members, a young lady, was killed in -- in the New Lots line -- on the New Lots line. So I -- I decided to -- to quit transit because I -- I felt that after spending twenty-two years with the government I didn't want to lose my life in -- in a wooden booth, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm- hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: So I, I retired. I retired from... While I was a, uh, a musician I, I worked for so -- for the Department of Aging with -- with a -- with a 63:00fourteen-piece band made up of veterans from Duke Ellington, Cab Calloway, [inaudible]. We played all the nursing homes in -- in -- in, uh -- in New York and in Brooklyn. Nursing homes. Hospitals. Played dances. We played in Lincoln Center. During the -- the -- the Department of Aging affair in Lincoln Center they have here. And -- and we played --we worked private gigs. And -- and we did quite a bit working. And I was a musician while I was working at the Navy Yard too, see. And while, while I was with transit I still kept my --

SADY SULLIVAN: So always. You're always playing.

WESLEY FAGAN: Always a musician, see. Always a musician. And, uh, I -- I played, uh -- played in the big Catholic church there, uh, up in Harlem -- Manhattan you 64:00know. With, with, uh, Cab Calloway and different -- I worked with Noble Sissle.

SADY SULLIVAN: I'd love to hear -- Oh.

WESLEY FAGAN: I worked with -- I played -- I played at the Waldorf and first saxophone with Noble Sissle's band for a gig. Noble Sissle. He was quite famous at that time.

SADY SULLIVAN: I'd love to hear who else you played with. Especially people from Brooklyn.

WESLEY FAGAN: Hmm?

SADY SULLIVAN: Um, I'd love to hear who else you played with. Especially from Brooklyn. Because that's one of the areas we're very interested in is the music.

WESLEY FAGAN: Yeah. Most of them. Most of them. Most of the, the bands that I played with. The first band I played with, uh, they worked for a Jewish organization that monopolized the, uh, the dancehalls during the weekend. It's Manhattan Center, City Center, uh, the hotel, all the hotels. They -- they -- 65:00they -- they had different bands that they placed in, all this Jewish organization. And we were one of their bands, see. We played the American music, and, uh, uh, the flute player -- I can't think of the name, uh, uh -- he used to play the Cuban music, you know. It was different back then. See because we played -- we played one album, uh, the American music style. Jazz. And -- and -- and they would play. All this is while I'm still working at the Navy Yard, and in other jobs. And -- and that was -- that was the first big band that I played with. Then from there I went with the -- with the senior citizen, the, the, um -- the Department of Aging, see. And played all their -- their affairs. All the 66:00centers. Then I -- then I -- I stopped playing altogether, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: You don't play anymore?

WESLEY FAGAN: No, I don't play anymore, no. I -- I need that -- I need that, um -- I need that air for walking instead of putting it in that horn, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter] Yeah. Do you still -- do you listen to music still?

WESLEY FAGAN: Hmm?

SADY SULLIVAN: Do you listen to music still? Do you listen to music still?

WESLEY FAGAN: Yes. I -- I usually listen to music, but I -- I can't adjust to this hip-hop. I can't adjust to that, see. And, uh, I -- I usually -- I usually listen to big bands. Like the -- the -- the trumpet player at the -- at the -- at the -- the music -- music hall in the -- the trumpet player that has the band there. I usually listen to him. I can't think of his name. But I only listen to 67:00big bands and that kind of thing. But otherwise --

SADY SULLIVAN: Lester Young?

WESLEY FAGAN: -- I don't bother. I tried to play but I -- I can't play no more of that. Hm.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. I have some more questions about the -- about your work at the Navy Yard.

WESLEY FAGAN: Hmm?

SADY SULLIVAN: I have some more questions about your work at the Navy Yard.

WESLEY FAGAN: Mm-hmm.

SADY SULLIVAN: Um, why did you say that they wouldn't hire you as a machinist?

WESLEY FAGAN: I think they were prejudiced, uh, there, see. Because the -- the -- I understand that the -- the -- the -- the fellow that -- the, the man that was in charge of hiring, I think his name was Solomon. I think he was, uh, the one that gave the, the okay, you know. And -- but I think in later years, uh, the government caught up with him, you know. And I think he's -- I think he's served time for that, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

WESLEY FAGAN: But at that time they were prejudiced, very prejudiced. So that's why I had to accept whatever position -- and that's the only way I worked my way up.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Was that -- what -- did you see that a lot? That kind of prejudice and discrimination --

WESLEY FAGAN: Yeah. Yeah very -- yeah --

SADY SULLIVAN: -- in the Navy Yard?

WESLEY FAGAN: Well -- well -- well I couldn't -- couldn't -- couldn't say for sure, see. Because I had, um -- I knew a couple of fellows that, uh, had good jobs. And I knew one -- one -- one, uh -- one person that, uh, uh -- he married one of the Indians from the Shinnecock Reservation. I knew him. And he was in charge of a gang for -- and, and, uh, somehow or other, which they never proved, they found him in the dry dock, he had -- he had fallen from -- from -- from the ship, see. And whether it was prejudice or not I don't know, see.

JANE GREEN: Accidentally on purpose.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

WESLEY FAGAN: But, uh, he had -- I think he had three daughters. Three daughters. And I understand he -- the money that he got from -- from the injury -- that the family got from the injury, they all became lawyers you know. [inaudible] But they -- they could never prove that he was -- it was accident or -- but, uh, prejudice still existed in the, in the Yard at that time, you know what I mean.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: The only photographer -- I think that I was the only black, black -- uh, colored, uh -- black photographer at that time. Uh, there -- there was another photographer at the Yard, but he only did -- worked in, in -- taking pictures of the --pictures for the passes, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: And my -- my -- my work was all technical. Scientific, see. I became a scientific -- a scientific photographer. And I -- and I got, uh, 70:00clearance working at the material lab, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yes. So what was -- what were you working on there in the material lab? You were photographing?

WESLEY FAGAN: Hmm?

SADY SULLIVAN: What were you photographing in the materials lab?

WESLEY FAGAN: At the Navy Yard?

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

WESLEY FAGAN: Well, I photographed ships.

SADY SULLIVAN: At the materials lab?

WESLEY FAGAN: Christening. Christening.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: Christening ships.

JANE GREEN: It's in here?

WESLEY FAGAN: All -- all -- all of this. This is -- this is all the work.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: Christening. Christening ships. Dignitaries. The personal letter from Vice President Humphrey.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

WESLEY FAGAN: See. Vice President. I photographed his daughter. That's his daughter. That's her christening the ship. That's my shot.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh that's a fantastic photo.

WESLEY FAGAN: That's my shot, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow. With the champagne spray.

WESLEY FAGAN: That's -- this is Johnson's daughter. I took this. President 71:00Johnson's daughter. That's the other one here.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: Luci Baines. Photographing. This is -- this is -- this is a monthly report. We had to photograph the ship progress report, see, you know what I'm saying. This is a fire that -- that -- that caught -- the ship caught fire.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yes. The Constellation.

WESLEY FAGAN: This is my shot. All -- this is my shot, you know.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: All of these are my pictures, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: This is the Intrepid.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: I photographed the Intrepid too.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: Put that in your report, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: I rode on the Intrepid, see. See all this, [inaudible], see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Oh it looks like people wrote on the ship. I didn't -- I've never seen this before. What are -- what are --

WESLEY FAGAN: Yeah, see, they're bringing -- see how they're bringing it in? See --

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh yeah.

WESLEY FAGAN: -- they're bringing it in by train and then this is part of the hull that then was -- was damaged. See, and so they cut off the damaged part and 72:00then that's how they add it on. I photographed this, this is down in the dry dock.

SADY SULLIVAN: What is this? There's writing -- there's writing on this hull?

WESLEY FAGAN: Hmm?

SADY SULLIVAN: Was that -- was that common for there to be writing on the hull? Can you see that?

JANE GREEN: What -- some kind of writing is [inaudible].

WESLEY FAGAN: No I don't know. The workers wrote -- wrote on it.

SADY SULLIVAN: Ah.

WESLEY FAGAN: The workers. The workers, you know, wrote. I don't know what they mean -- maybe -- maybe it's direction on how to -- what to do, you know, welding. They weld those parts, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: See, all this that ship. This -- this is -- this is the last ship to leave the Navy Yard.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

WESLEY FAGAN: See, that's the last one, see. It said farewell, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yes.

WESLEY FAGAN: Yeah. This -- this is the Intrepid, see. There's the Intrepid here, I think.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. So how would you -- how -- a lot of these photographs are from up above --

WESLEY FAGAN: Because --

SADY SULLIVAN: -- so where would you take them from?

WESLEY FAGAN: -- well the building -- the building where the photo lab was on the, uh, I think the twelfth floor.

SADY SULLIVAN: Ah.

WESLEY FAGAN: This was taken from the roof.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh. So what building was that? Do you remember?

WESLEY FAGAN: I think it's Building 77.

SADY SULLIVAN: Uh-huh.

WESLEY FAGAN: It's at Vanderbilt, at the end of Vanderbilt. I think it's 77. She -- the other -- the other young lady could tell you.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yup.

WESLEY FAGAN: This picture -- this picture here--

JANE GREEN: You said it was [inaudible].

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

JANE GREEN: This child gotta go home. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh no, this is great.

JANE GREEN: Yeah?

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

JANE GREEN: Oh okay. As long as you're okay.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

WESLEY FAGAN: Well anyway, I -- I took a picture from the Hotel Saint George.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

WESLEY FAGAN: From Hotel Saint George.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yup, I know that hotel, in Brooklyn Heights.

JANE GREEN: Mm-hmm.

[Interview Interrupted.]

JANE GREEN: You sure it's in that book?

WESLEY FAGAN: I photographed Martin Luther King.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow.

WESLEY FAGAN: These are different bands I've been with. They used my picture in the officers' club. I, I -- I don't know where -- where it is now.

JANE GREEN: Which one are you looking for?

WESLEY FAGAN: All of these are commendations I--

SADY SULLIVAN: That's a cool flyer. For your show.

WESLEY FAGAN: This -- this -- this is the first band I played with.

SDY SULLIVAN: Oh!

WESLEY FAGAN: Look at -- look at these prices.

SADY SULLIVAN: So where -- is this Washington? 634 Washington--?

WESLEY FAGAN: In Buffalo, New York.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh in Buffalo. Okay. Not here.

WESLEY FAGAN: This is Buffalo. This is the first band. This is the band, here. Bring your chair around here.

SADY SULLIVAN: Cool.

WESLEY FAGAN: Look at them.

[Interview Interrupted.]

SADY SULLIVAN: Ten cents for a beer! Collins and highballs twenty -- twenty-five cents. Steak and chicken plates fifty cents. Times have changed in terms of -- [laughter]

JANE GREEN: Oh! And how.

WESLEY FAGAN: This is -- this is me here.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh wow.

WESLEY FAGAN: This is the transit band.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. That's really cool.

WESLEY FAGAN: This is my band. This is a friend of mine's band. This is my band, here.

SADY SULLIVAN: Ah. So who are your bandmates?

WESLEY FAGAN: This is my band. That's me there.

SADY SULLIVAN: And who are these guys?

WESLEY FAGAN: They're all dead. [laughter] This is my band. Big band. That's me there. This is a Pentecostal band. This is a Pentecostal -- that's me there.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh I didn't know. So your band --

WESLEY FAGAN: We played all churches.

SADY SULLIVAN: It was your band with your name.

WESLEY FAGAN: That's my name. Fagan. Fagan.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah, oh wow.

WESLEY FAGAN: Wes Fagan.

SADY SULLIVAN: So was it called, like, the Wes Fagan Band? Or what was the name?

WESLEY FAGAN: Hmm?

SADY SULLIVAN: Was it called the Wes Fagan Band?

WESLEY FAGAN: Yeah. Wes Fagan.

SADY SULLIVAN: Dizzy Gillespie.

WESLEY FAGAN: Of course, that's my mother.

SADY SULLIVAN: Ah.

WESLEY FAGAN: That's my sister.

SADY SULLIVAN: Ah.

WESLEY FAGAN: That's my sister. This is me in Okinawa.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: And this is my wife. And I wanted --

SADY SULLIVAN: Is this -- is this your wife who --

WESLEY FAGAN: She's the one that's in the nursing home.

SADY SMITH: -- who's a Shinnecock?

WESLEY FAGAN: This is the one in the -- in the --

JANE GREEN: That's the last one.

WESLEY FAGAN: No she's -- she's in the nursing home now.

SADY SULLIVAN: I see.

JANE GREEN: Yeah that's the one that's on the life support.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

JANE GREEN: They want her [inaudible] to pull the plug but he won't.

WESLEY FAGAN: I, I -- this is -- this is a senior citizen -- uh, senior citizen [inaudible] that's me here.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: We -- we had a write-up in -- in this paper. And, and -- and they did -- they did a whole story about, about, about -- about the band.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. So how many bands -- how many bands have --

WESLEY FAGAN: I've been in several bands you know.

SADY SULLIVAN: How many would you say? How many?

WESLEY FAGAN: Oh, I played I guess in about ten -- maybe ten or fifteen different bands.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

WESLEY FAGAN: Yeah it's -- it's hard to say, you know.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: And this is a machine I used to -- to run in the Navy Yard, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow.

WESLEY FAGAN: Top -- top secret. See, that's why --

SADY SULLIVAN: Is this a photo to --

WESLEY FAGAN: I used to make up the chemicals for the thing.

SADY SULLIVAN: This is a developer?

WESLEY FAGAN: Yeah. Developer goes in here, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: That is cool.

WESLEY FAGAN: Yeah. That's a big -- big machine. They -- they don't use that no more.

SADY SULLIVAN: And --

WESLEY FAGAN: They don't use this machine no more.

SADY SULLIVAN: What is this that you're wearing, the apron, what was that made out of?

WESLEY FAGAN: That's a big -- big -- big [inaudible], you know, acid can run -- all this is acid, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. So is that like a rubber? Is it rubber apron?

WESLEY FAGAN: Yeah, yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: But I had to make up the chemicals. Large, large drums of chemicals.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah. That's a really big -- that's a big machine to do -- to be developing.

WESLEY FAGAN: Yeah. That's -- that's when I was in the Norwegian liner. I - I played on the Norwegian. Saxophone.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

WESLEY FAGAN: [laughter] And they gave me one. But I wanted to show -- show you --

SADY SULLIVAN: So I have some -- I have some other questions.

WESLEY FAGAN: Yeah, ask.

SADY SULLIVAN: Okay.

WESLEY FAGAN: I probably have an answer for you.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter] Did -- going -- going back to your -- to your parents. Did you -- did you tell me? Where are your grandparents from? We talked about your grandmother. But where were your grandparents from?

WESLEY FAGAN: I don't remember. I just remember my grandmother.

SADY SULLIVAN: And she was --

WESLEY FAGAN: On account of I worked with her in the school, you know, as a kid.

SADY SULLIVAN: And was she from Virginia too?

WESLEY FAGAN: Yeah she's Virginian, yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Um, and then, you said your uncle was in Buffalo?

WESLEY FAGAN: Hmm?

SADY SULLIVAN: Your uncle was in Buffalo?

WESLEY FAGAN: Yeah he worked in Buffalo. Yeah. Yeah. He was a musician.

SADY SULLIVAN: How -- do you know -- why did he -- why did he go to Buffalo?

WESLEY FAGAN: Well. [laughter] Let -- let me -- this is -- this is a story that, 80:00that--that, um, you wouldn't believe. I was young, very young then. And naturally we all listened to our elders, you know. So he said that he -- he said that, uh -- uh, why don't I come to Buffalo you know. And so I, uh, we -- uh, we got permission from my father to. So I went to Buffalo with him. When I arrived there, he was there before. He met me at the bus terminal. And he took me -- he took me over to his -- his place. And he had one room. One room, you know. And -- and I was under the impression that he had a, a -- a big band and that -- and hometown boy going to -- to the big city, to become famous as a musician. See, 81:00all that ran through my head. But I was quiet about it because you know, you don't -- you don't talk back to your elders in, in -- in those days. So I listened to him. So he took me -- he took me to his -- his room. And, uh, he said let's -- let's see what you can do, you know, as a musician. I didn't have no idea what instrument he wanted me to play, whether saxophone or clarinet or flute. See, I was -- I was pretty good in all of them. So he -- he said, "let's see what you can do." So he played -- he played banjo. He played banjo, you know. He had a beautiful voice. Beautiful. So we played. He says, "know any Polish numbers?" I said, "yeah I know 'Beer Barrel Polka,' I know [inaudible]," 82:00other polka numbers I knew. Irish numbers. Yeah. My 'Mother Came from Ireland' and 'Irish Rose,' I knew. Any other numbers? Jazz? Yes, yes, I knew. He said, okay. So we played a few numbers. He said "okay, let's go and have something to eat." And we went and had dinner. And went back to the house. He asked me, says, "you have any old clothes, you bring any old clothes." I said, "old clothes, no, no, no, no, just what I have on." He said all right, so he -- gave me an old hat and, uh, and an old Army coat. And, uh, I thought maybe that the band was going to a masquerade party, you know, how we were dressing. So he said, "uh, [inaudible], let's -- let's -- let's go." So we got out our -- got out our 83:00instruments and we started walking, see. Buffalo is divided into Polish, Irish and, uh, and Black neighborhood, and -- and Italian neighborhood. And he -- he -- he had been working in the neighborhood for quite some time. So we got to the first -- first, uh, beer garden, beer joint. And he said, "let's go in here, see." And I didn't know what's happening. I figured we were still going to play this big dance. And so we, we, we, we -- he says something to the bartender. The bartender shook his head, put two chairs in the corner. And we started playing, see. And then he, he -- he passed the hat, see. And we stayed there for a few minutes. And then -- and then -- until the money ran out there. And the 84:00bartender, when they passed the hat, the bartender would take it -- the drunks would be at the bar drunk, you know, and have the money on them there. Bartender would take the money and put it in the hat you know. And -- and so we stayed there until [inaudible] and then we did that all through the night, see. So when I got back home, you know, I started crying. I said, "you tricked me up here you know, and led me astray, and I -- I'm going to call my father in the morning on Western Union to send me money to come back home." I said, "you, you really treated me wrong, because you gave me the impression that you had a big band and everything." And, see, the job that I worked in the -- worked in, in, in -- in Portsmouth paid seven dollars a week. Which was quite a bit of money, seven 85:00dollars. I did all janitorial work at this store. There was a naval store that sold clothes to naval officers and all them, and [inaudible] other patrons too. And he -- I did all the -- the labor work you know, seven dollar a week. And I had to give my mother half of that, three, three fifty, you know. So I started crying, you know. And I said, "you tricked me up here." And so he said, "where's your hat." I said, "what do you want my hat for?" He said, "go get your hat, see." So he got the hat and put the hat there and he started counting all the money. And one for you, two for you, three for you, fifteen for you, fifteen for me, twenty for you. I stopped crying.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

WESLEY FAGAN: I said, "twenty, twenty dollars! Here I've been working for seven dollars a week, see." And I said to him -- I stopped crying --I said, "forget what I was saying, forget it!"

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

JANE GREEN: You, you didn't know he was going to share the money with you.

WESLEY FAGAN: [laughter] That's a story I haven't told everybody [inaudible].

SADY SULLIVAN: That is brilliant. [laughter]

WESLEY FAGAN: I -- I worked hard as a laborer at that store for seven dollars a week. And he was counting twenty for me! And that was a lot of money because it was during WPA days. And I was getting food because every bar that we went, you know, in those days, they had food on the counter.

SADY SULLIVAN: Ah.

WESLEY FAGAN: They had sandwiches on it and, you know, and they gave you a beer or Coca-Cola, whatever you wanted. You're playing, you know. And, you know, so 87:00you got your food, I was getting my food, and everything. So when he -- when he counted twenty that -- that was it. I stayed with -- I stayed with him I guess about a year, you know. And then I -- I met musicians that belonged to the union, you know, while I was in Buffalo.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: So that's how I got with this -- this band, see. Because I was a musician in my hometown, see. I was a good musician. And that's -- and that's how I -- I was lucky to get with this -- this band. Because he -- he was a top violinist in -- in this country. Black violinist. Stuff Smith. Made a lot of records, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: What's his name?

WESLEY FAGAN: He did a lot of work.

SADY SULLIVAN: What's his name?

JANE GREEN: What was his name?

WESLEY FAGAN: Stuff Smith. Stuff Smith.

SADY SULLIVAN: Stuff?

JANE GREEN: Stuff?

WESLEY FAGAN: Stuff. S-T-U-F-F.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

JANE GREEN: Oh, Stuff.

WESLEY FAGAN: Leroy Smith, his name was Leroy -- Leroy Smith.

JANE GREEN: Leroy Smith.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: His name was Leroy Smith but they called him Stuff Smith.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter] Tell me more about --

WESLEY FAGAN: That was -- that was the first --

SADY SULLIVAN: -- tell me more about the 802 union.

WESLEY FAGAN: Hmm?

SADY SULLIVAN: Tell me more about the 802 musicians' union.

WESLEY FAGAN: Well, well, I guess when I -- I played with 802 you had -- you had to have, uh -- when I played with these different bands, you know, with the Jewish organization, you know, you had to have, uh -- I was a member -- I was a member of the local in Buffalo, New York, see, 533. See, when -- when -- when I left my uncle I joined the union in Buffalo, 533. That's why you had to join the union, you know. That's how I became a union musician. So when I transferred and came to New York I, I, I -- I reinstated mine, and I joined 802. And I used to play -- used to play in, in the park. Sometimes 802 used to furnish music for the different parks, see. And they used to play in the park. And -- and, uh, we -- we -- we played -- we played symphonies you know. And the kids used to throw 89:00rocks and cans. Because they don't want to hear that kind of music in the park, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

WESLEY FAGAN: Yeah. So, so I played with 802 for a while. Then -- then -- then when I -- when I, uh -- when, when I joined the -- started playing for the senior citizens, I -- I dropped 802 altogether, see. Because as, uh -- as, uh, a musician, uh, for senior citizen, they didn't pay to scale. The city didn't pay to scale. But we got plenty of work, see. Because I worked for the Rockefellers and the Morgans and we did -- we did all their work, you know. Outside [inaudible]. Even, um -- some rich lady even took the whole band to -- my wife's home is down in Virginia. My wife's home is down in Virginia. Took the whole 90:00band down to Virginia. And played down in Virginia. All rich people. The Morgans and uh -- that's the senior citizen band, see. We used to get the best jobs in -- in -- in New York, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: And then the big affair, when the senior citizen had their affair at Lincoln Center during the summer, you know. In the park, they played there. But -- but I've had an interesting -- interesting life. And you can't com -- complain.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. I'll say. Um, how did you -- how did you meet your first wife?

WESLEY FAGAN: My first wife, um -- I was a music -- musician at, at, at this -- at this club called Little Harlem. And Joe Louis used to come there from when he was champion and used to bring all -- all his girls. He used to have four, five 91:00girls, beautiful women with him. And -- and -- and his manager and everything. He used to come about once a month at this club. And, and, uh, my -- my wife was a, a waitress at this club. And, uh, she was his favorite waitress, see. And -- and at that time I, I -- I was young you know, and I'd marry anybody then that showed the kind -- were kind to me. But anyway, we fell in love, you know. Of course I used to do a lot of singing too, see, I used to -- I used to be the vocalist for -- for the orchestra that I was in.

SADY SULLIVAN: Ah.

WESLEY FAGAN: I used to sing. And so we fell in love. That's -- that's when I married her. And she died while I was in the service.

SADY SULLIVAN: And how did she die?

WESLEY FAGAN: When I went -- I went in the Army, see, she died, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh. She must have been very young when she died.

WESLEY FAGAN: Hmm?

SADY SULLIVAN: She must have been very young when she died.

WESLEY FAGAN: No, she was not young, no. I think she was older than I was. I 92:00think -- I think she was a year older. Couple years older.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh. How did she --

WESLEY FAGAN: And her name -- she -- her name was Arthulia Lopez [phonetic]. She -- I don't even know what -- whether she was Spanish or Puerto Rican or what. Because at that time I was young and foolish. See, you must remember that I'm -- I'm -- I'm a hometown boy, grew -- and -- and I'm not used to this nightlife, you know. So I'm all excited you know.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yes.

WESLEY FAGAN: So I -- I married. We married.

JANE GREEN: She said how did she die.

WESLEY FAGAN: Huh?

JANE GREEN: How did she die. What'd she die from?

WESLEY FAGAN: I -- I -- I don't know what she --

JANE GREEN: You were in the service.

WESLEY FAGAN: -- I never knew. I never knew --

JANE GREEN: What happened?

WESLEY FAGAN: -- what she died from. Because, uh, I didn't attend the funeral. I didn't go to the funeral. Yeah, and in the meantime my -- my father also died while I was in, in Hawaii but the government wouldn't let me attend the funeral because -- because my sister at the time was a nurse -- was in -- in -- was a 93:00nurse in the Army, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

WESLEY FAGAN: They said as long as one member of the family -- they wouldn't let me come to the funeral.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

WESLEY FAGAN: And I was in Hawaii, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Huh.

WESLEY FAGAN: So when -- when she died -- when she died, when, when, uh -- My hometown sweetheart -- getting back to her. My hometown sweetheart. I wanted to marry her when -- when I was in my -- my hometown. And -- but her parents asked me -- asked us to wait until she finished college. She was going to Shaw University in North Carolina at that time, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: I think she was a junior or, or -- or a sophomore. Well, she was there. So they asked me why don't you wait. And she was, and, uh -- so in the 94:00meantime I went to Buffalo and that's when I married my first wife.

SADY SULLIVAN: Uh-huh.

WESLEY FAGAN: So when my -- when my wife died, naturally while -- while she was alive whenever I visited home, naturally I would see my old you know, uh, girlfriend, you know, my hometown sweetheart. So when my wife died, she -- somehow or other we, we got together. And she got in touch with me. And I married her, see. You know. She was a schoolteacher. She was an English schoolteacher at, at Booker T. Washington High School in Norfolk, Virginia, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: I married her. In the meantime, I'm in the service when I married her. I was in the service. So when I -- when I, uh -- we had a big wedding. Outdoor wedding. Dignitaries from Hampton Institute and different colleges that 95:00she knew well, you know. I'm in, you know, I married her in my uniform out on the lawn and -- and a big audience, you know. And, uh -- and we, uh -- we -- we -- then I didn't have no idea, uh, what was going to happen after the wedding you know. But she, she -- she was very -- very smart you know. And she had everything planned when I'm still green when -- and they, they tied all these cans and things on the, the back of the car, see. So I asked her -- I thought she was going -- I'm going back to the base, you know. And she said, "I'm going with you." I hadn't planned on taking her. So anyway she -- she went back to the Army base with me. I was in Boston at that time, with the Army, with the Army. So, and then they -- they sent me down to Okinawa -- to Hawaii. So she came back 96:00home, see. So -- so we was married for while I was in the service for two years, see. So when we -- I got out of the service, mari -- marital difficulties between us, you know. She had never been married and she -- and she -- she was in -- in her thirties and near forties you know, then. And I had been in this life, you know, a long time. So we couldn't get along, see. She wanted me to go and to -- to quit playing music and the whole thing. So we -- we got a divorce. And I -- that's when I came back to New York, see, you know. So I married -- and that's why I married the Indian -- Indian girl. Because I married her after -- like I said, when I was at, at NYU and we went to work together at, at this nightclub, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. And what's her name? The -- the woman who's the -- your 97:00-- your third wife. What's her name?

WESLEY FAGAN: Let me see. My first wife was, was -- was Spanish. The second -- second wife was, was the Indian gal. Yeah, from the Shinnecock Reservation in Southampton. And the third one was -- was, uh -- she was American. She was -- she was colored.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

JANE GREEN: She said what was her name.

WESLEY FAGAN: Ah! Her name. Uh, her name was Maude, M-A-U-D-E, Fagan.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: The first wife was Arthulia Lopez --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: -- Fagan.

SADY SULLIVAN: And -- and your wife who's -- who, uh, was part of the Shinnecock?

WESLEY FAGAN: Hmm?

SADY SULLIVAN: What's -- is that Maude?

JANE GREEN: Yeah. The one that's sick now. What was her first name?

WESLEY FAGAN: What's her name?

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm

WESLEY FAGAN: Mildred Fagan.

JANE GREEN: Mildred. Yeah I couldn't think, I know it but I couldn't think of Mildred.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: She -- my present wife and -- and -- and the wife from Shinnecock, they were very close together. They belonged to the Eastern Star Lodge.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: They were both past matrons together, see. And then, uh, by her being friendly and -- a lot, a lot of time when, when, uh, they -- my -- my wife used to take the kids, uh, during the summer out on the reservation, see. We had this house too. Where they used to take the kids for the summer. She used to take her along with them. And, and they -- they worked together in the lodge together, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: So naturally when she -- she died, I married her, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: So she's also Shinnecock.

WESLEY FAGAN: I had -- I had no idea of being in love or anything with her 99:00because I didn't fool around, you know. They -- they were friends and that was all. Friendly. Because I stayed busy playing so much I didn't even have time to -- to worry about looking her way or anything.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: Never thought about her.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: But after -- after several months I married her, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: Because she was -- she was a member of the lodge and then she was a member of a big church, the Concord --

SADY SULLIVAN: Concord Baptist?

WESLEY FAGAN: -- Baptist church. She was a trustee under Reverend Gordon Taylor for years.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm

WESLEY FAGAN: She was a trustee. So she was a good person [inaudible] --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: -- and, and me being such a bad person, you know, good wife.

SADY SULLIVAN: Needed the -- [laughter]

WESLEY FAGAN: So naturally I married her, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter] Good balance.

WESLEY FAGAN: Yeah. You've had to listen to all [inaudible].

JANE GREEN: [laughter] That's all right.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter] Um, some other questions. Um, at the -- at the Navy 100:00Yard did you have -- was there -- were you -- could you go anywhere you wanted to in the Yard?

WESLEY FAGAN: Did I do what?

SADY SULLIVAN: At the Navy Yard, could you go anywhere you wanted to or --

WESLEY FAGAN: Yeah I could go anyplace I wanted in the Navy Yard. I -- I couldn't go to material lab. That building, that's a separate building at the end of Washington Street. At Washington. Big building there. And that was a scientific building. That was altogether different from the Navy Yard, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: It was a part of the Navy Yard but separate, see, yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: But I could go anywhere, see, and -- and I -- one -- one time I went out to -- with my supervisor. And I never will forget this, you know. My supervisor got an order for photography work. Uh, that, uh -- that air -- what's 101:00that -- what's the name of that air -- airfield out there by -- by the, uh -- where -- where they have the -- the -- the -- the bridge -- the bridge. I can't think of that. The airfield out in Utica Avenue, all the way out Utica Avenue. And there's a big airfield out there right by the bridge.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh. Kennedy Airport?

WESLEY FAGAN: They have -- they have big affairs out there. They have Indian affairs and things.

JANE GREEN: Yeah, it's right on the tip of my tongue, I can't recall it to you

SADY SULLIVAN: Okay. It'll -- it'll come. [laughter]

JANE GREEN: Yeah.

WESLEY FAGAN: You know what I'm talking about?

JANE GREEN: Yeah, yes it's --

WESLEY FAGAN: Yeah I can't think of it.

JANE GREEN: Can't think of the name of it either.

WESLEY FAGAN: But there it's -- it's -- it was owned by the government.

JANE GREEN: Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: And they had a lot of top secret things going on in there.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: Hang on, what's the name of that place?

JANE GREEN: Eh--

WESLEY FAGAN: Anyway. My supervisor, I never will forget this, he took me along with him, you know, as a guy with the equipment. He had a job to photograph something. Maybe you shouldn't even write this. Shouldn't even -- maybe I shouldn't even mention it. Anyway, we had to tie ropes around our waist. Each one. Because they had this -- the sand, what it is, where you sink in the sand.

SADY SULLIVAN: Like a quicksand?

WESLEY FAGAN: Quicksand.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

WESLEY FAGAN: They had a lot of quicksand out there, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

WESLEY FAGAN: And I remember. I remember with the -- with the officers, tying these things around our waist, each one, to get to this place. But all this was top secret, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: See, so that's why I say I -- I worked in, in top secret [inaudible], I had a clearance.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: They -- they got a -- they got an order from the -- the government 103:00from -- got an order for -- the Navy Yard got an order for check the, um, the shipyard. Boy I can't think of it. It's a shipyard that, that's in, uh -- that was doing the PTA boats. They called them PTA boats. Kennedy used to be in charge of one of the boats. Kennedy --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: -- when he was in the service. He was in the service. There was a company -- I can't think of the place. Anyway it was a group came down from Washington to investigate this -- this -- this place that was making these ships, you know. So they called -- they called -- they called, uh, the photo lab here and my -- my supervisor lived in Jersey and I got all the dirty work, see. So he, he gave me the, uh, the assignment. So I followed these men from -- from 104:00-- from Washington to the shipyard. And in, in Jersey. Just -- just -- just as you leave the -- the parkway to go to -- to -- to Atlantic City [inaudible], there's a shipyard there and -- and I photo -- I followed these -- these -- these -- these men from Washington and -- and photographed these ships. Something was wrong moneywise and the government wasn't getting the -- what it was they were supposed to. And I followed them. And then I came back. They -- they -- they -- they brought me back. I met them at the airport, see. And then they -- they -- they took me back to the plant. And then -- then I came back to -- late at night. This is about eleven, twelve o'clock at night. And I went to the photo lab and I developed the -- the pictures because they wanted those pictures in Washington the next day, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

WESLEY FAGAN: That's the kind of work I was doing, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: That. Okay. So I -- that answers a question --

WESLEY FAGAN: And then I -- I, I did work. I -- I -- I -- I did the work and -- and put it in the mail and sent it to them. I got all the commendations in -- in this book right there.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yes.

WESLEY FAGAN: You got a lot of commendations for the kind of --

SADY SULLIVAN: Yes.

WESLEY FAGAN: -- the work that I did, you know.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yes.

WESLEY FAGAN: Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: What was the main use of photography at the Navy Yard?

WESLEY FAGAN: Hmm?

SADY SULLIVAN: What was the main use of photography at the Navy Yard?

WESLEY FAGAN: The main what?

SADY SULLIVAN: Main use.

WESLEY FAGAN: Menu?

SADY SULLIVAN: Main --

JANE GREEN: Main use. Use. What did they use the photography for that --

WESLEY FAGAN: Well, different cases that are brought up you know against different companies and all. And --

SADY SULLIVAN: So different --

WESLEY FAGAN: The government. I don't know what the government. Because it went to the Pentagon, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Right. So maybe they weren't doing the ships the way they wanted them.

WESLEY FAGAN: But -- but see -- see one -- one reason why, uh, uh, I had to photograph. See, when I was -- when I was, uh, head of photo lab at the, at the 106:00-- at Fort Hamilton any time a dignitary from Korea or China, uh, naval, naval, these officers would visit the Yard, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: I had pictures in here. When they visited the Yard, see. I -- from the Pentagon they would send me a letter. I had to have a photographer at the -- at the airport to take their picture.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: For -- for protection for the country.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: For the country. See, they had to have pictures. Pentagon had to have pictures of them visiting this, see, so --

JANE GREEN: Oh. Pictures was for -- for the Pentagon -- for the government --

SADY SULLIVAN: So -- so to like -- to document --

WESLEY FAGAN: So I always had --

JANE GREEN: Yes.

WESLEY FAGAN: -- so I always had to send pictures. Any time a dignitary would come, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: She -- she had -- she has the book of all, uh, the pictures I've taken of Korean --

SADY SULLIVAN: Right. Daniella has your book, yeah.

WESLEY FAGAN: -- English. English. All -- all naval. These are all naval countries.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

WESLEY FAGAN: Because usually, usually those small countries, they'll fall overnight, see. And the government would have pictures of -- of different 107:00things, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

WESLEY FAGAN: See, that -- that was one of my jobs --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: -- in the top secret work, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. So what did --

WESLEY FAGAN: And see, that's why I say I had problems with -- with those two photographers. Because sometime I would send -- send one of the Jew -- the Jewish fellow, the Puerto Rican fellow, I would send him on a job. And he'll come back and say the flash didn't go off or something. So I'm in trouble from Pentagon.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

WESLEY FAGAN: Why -- why you didn't send the picture? You know. And --

SADY SULLIVAN: Right.

WESLEY FAGAN: -- I had a lot of trouble with them. So I -- I made up my mind. And then any important job I'm going to do it myself, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: That's why I got all these commendations, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. So what would be -- is -- what would be a typical day for you at the Navy Yard? What would a -- what would a normal day be like?

WESLEY FAGAN: Well, I enjoyed the work I was doing, see. And, uh, the -- my supervisor was, was, was -- I mean he looked like he went of his way to try to 108:00help me, you know, see. And I love him for what he did because he used to take me along with him. And -- and then another fellow that worked -- worked with me. Worked with me. There was only two of us. Italian fellow. Two photographers. Me and -- three of us: supervisor, Italian fellow. And he -- he was younger than I was. And I -- I was about the same age as my -- my supervisor, see. And then we -- we got to -- we got to know each other because he was Presbyterian and I was Presbyterian, see. And we could talk about what -- about religion, see. And then one thing that I -- I -- I -- I still believe that because of him selecting me, because when my pastor -- Reverend Galamison was the pastor of the church, he was a student at Lincoln University. And I -- I -- I believe that I -- I do 109:00believe he preached at his church once, see, as a student, see. And, and, and -- and looked like we had something in common, which was why he lean more towards me than the other fellow. Other fellow quit. Finally. He, he -- he quit. He took another job, supposedly paid more, in lithography, see. So that left the supervisor and myself, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: So when -- when the -- when the Yard began to close which -- which I didn't know, but my supervisor knew. And then he had the time in. And he -- he -- he -- he was chastised because he had a thousand hours' sick leave! He never -- he never took off.

JANE GREEN: Never took off.

WESLEY FAGAN: He never took off.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow.

WESLEY FAGAN: He had a thousand hous hours' sick leave, see. And so that -- that left the two of us, see. So when -- when -- when -- when they -- when they put 110:00me in the street, when I was bumped, put me in the street, took it off of me, and sent me to material lab, and gave me top secret, then that's when he quit. He retired.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: So they didn't have nobody in charge of photo lab. So that's why they -- they -- they canceled me out as -- as -- as a scientific photographer and brought me back to close the Yard, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: Because I got orders for what to do in the Yard, see. And surprisingly, you know, I got orders from -- from Public Works at the time because I was working under Public Works.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: They got orders from -- it was too -- cost too much to catalog all the equipment. Cost too much for the government to catalog all the equipment. So they sent the -- the -- the -- the -- the -- the, uh -- well, not porters. You know. Laborers. With big carts. And I threw away cameras. And -- and -- and they 111:00had -- they had a vault. And -- and -- and the lab where it had a vault which I didn't know about. And they had negatives from way back when they didn't use the negatives. You know they did -- did it on plates.

SADY SULLIVAN: Right. The glass plates.

WESLEY FAGAN: The glass -- it's -- it's a name for that.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

WESLEY FAGAN: Of the old ships and everything. Years ago.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

WESLEY FAGAN: It's too much to catalog. And they, they put all that stuff in these dumpsters. And took it. And just took enlarger and a couple of trays and, and -- and for me to work across the street, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow. So what happened to those photographs and negatives?

WESLEY FAGAN: Hmm?

SADY SULLIVAN: What happened to them?

JANE GREEN: What happened to them?

WESLEY FAGAN: They put all that stuff in the dumpster. It was too much to catalog.

SADY SULLIVAN: So it's just gone.

WESLEY FAGAN: It's just gone, yeah. I was surprised. And --

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow. Yeah.

JANE GREEN: That's why she was asking what -- what was your actual job when you came in in the morning.

WESLEY FAGAN: Huh?

JANE GREEN: What were you -- what was your actual job when you came in the morning, to come to work.

WESLEY FAGAN: When I came in the morning -- when, when I came in the morning, uh, in -- in -- in -- in the morning I, I photographed the, the meetings that she has in the book. The -- the -- a carrier, government carrier and all of them. They used to have meetings. When they closed the Yard, see. See. And Mayor LaGuardia, all of them, see. And at the end, at the end, that's -- that's when I -- they didn't have no photographer for that, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: So -- so I did that.

JANE GREEN: So that -- that's what you wanted to know, what was --

WESLEY FAGAN: And then they finally phased out. Phased out each -- each thing. And it was something to do, see, less -- less work, see. And if it hadn't -- 113:00they needed -- they still needed pictures to the very end, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

WESLEY FAGAN: So they had to have a photographer. So that's why they kept the lab open and running.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: Then -- then they phased them out. Then they moved me across the street, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: Then they phased me out altogether, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: That's when -- when the -- when the government tried to offer me that job at Fort Hamilton, Fort Wadsworth, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: Because of the knowledge I had, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. So was there -- my -- my question about your -- what was -- is there a typical day of work? Or was there always, depending on what was going on -- ?

WESLEY FAGAN: When I go in in the morning --

JANE GREEN: Depending --

WESLEY FAGAN: -- my supervisor would -- I mean he would have orders from Public Works. See, we were all on -- it's the Public Works Department of the Navy Yard, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: He got his orders from Public Works.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: Uh, such and such a ship propeller is going to be put on today. Propeller. Down in the dry dock, see.

JANE GREEN: All depends on what was going on.

WESLEY FAGAN: Had to have photography there.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: And then I used to photograph the officers. Different officers. We 114:00-- we had a portrait studio or two. Officers had to have -- have -- have pictures, you know.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yes.

WESLEY FAGAN: Yeah we -- we did that. I did that, see. And then -- then every time they have a -- a new -- new -- new officer, you know, I had to photograph them, see. See, plenty of photography work, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: Sometimes all three of us was working at the time, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Depending on whatever's happening at the Yard.

WESLEY FAGAN: Yeah. You see, big events like christening of the ship. You better have three or four photographers. One photographer can't do it, because he'll miss something.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: So -- so -- so we had three photographers. That's why one, one -- one of these pictures, they, they photographed me on the back of my head, see, when --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: --when that photographer asked how did I get that job, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: Well, the other two photographers, the supervisor, he was photographing. He photographed me.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: And the other photographer, the Italian fellow, he -- he had another job on another part of the Yard, so far.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: A big event's likely to have three or four photographers around, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAM: And then I did -- did -- you develop your own, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. And so what happened to the -- all of the photographs and negatives? We've seen some of them. But what happened to all of the --

WESLEY FAGAN: They kept the negative. We -- we -- we got -- we got rid of all that. Kept, they kept the neg --

SADY SULLIVAN: Are those at the Navy Yard? Or where would they be?

WESLEY FAGAN: No, we -- we -- we got rid of them. A -- after a certain length of time the supervisor destroyed all the negatives, you know.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: Because fortunately, or unfortunately, I didn't keep the negatives of -- of -- of-- when I developed those pictures of the marine that took the Kennedy, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh yeah.

WESLEY FAGAN: Yeah I -- I kept the -- I kept the pictures. I made extra copies of the pictures, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: And that's why I got these pictures, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: But I, I should have kept a couple of negatives. You wouldn't have 116:00known anyway. Because he had shot about twelve, fifteen different shots. And I -- and I should have kept the negative myself.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: But I was honest, you know. I didn't do anything.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Um, I wonder. You -- we spoke --

WESLEY FAGAN: There was plenty of work at the Navy Yard. And then -- then -- then there was the naval officers. Wives used to have hat sales, you know, have hat parties. Had to have a photographer there.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: She has some pictures of me photographing one of the teas that they had -- tea at that big building that --

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh. Oh. At the officers' housing.

WESLEY FAGAN: That officers' building, you know, that I -- I showed you.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh. The commandants.

WESLEY FAGAN: You saw -- you saw that. That big --

SADY SULLIVAN: Yes.

WESLEY FAGAN: -- building that they're trying to destroy, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: The commandant's house.

WESLEY FAGAN: I photographed a lot of pictures in -- in that building, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

WESLEY FAGAN: But the -- the -- the -- the officers' wives used to have teas and hat -- hat shows. And for charity, you know.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: Had to have a photographer.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: So they sent me.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: Or either sent the other fellow, here.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: We had plenty of work.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: Plenty of work.

SADY SULLIVAN: Um --

WESLEY FAGAN: They had an accident. Falling. I -- they had -- there -- there -- there's one accident I took. Fellow fell in in the dry dock. You know those dry docks is about ten stories high.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: And I photographed the chain where it was broken. She has the picture there. And-- and then if they -- they -- they -- one -- one of the ships that was when it left the Yard, one of the sailors was missing, see. So. And later on they found him under the dry dock, see. So after several -- several years -- several months, several weeks, they found him under the dry dock. So they have a special place that, that they put the dead, you know. I had to go and photograph, see. I had to put -- I had to put on a coveralls, you know what coveralls are. Because the smell, you know.

SADY SULLIVAN: Ugh.

WESLEY FAGAN: Gas mask.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

WESLEY FAGAN: I did all kind of work, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

WESLEY FAGAN: And -- and in the wintertime when they put on the propeller on the ship in the dry dock, it's zero. It;s way below zero weather then at that time, that's why you got see me with -- with that fur coat on. Because the workers usually have, um, drums with -- with -- with wood in it, you know, have a fire down there and warm them.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

WESLEY FAGAN: But not for me, see. I had -- I had to keep the camera warm and everything else.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: And then --

JANE GREEN: She want to ask -- ask you some more questions. You keep talking. She can't ask --

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh no. It's good. [laughter]

JANE GREEN: -- ask you the questions that she wants. That she want to write about.

SADY SULLIVAN: Well, I have a -- I'm very curious about the Constellation fire. What happened with the Constellation, that fire?

WESLEY FAGAN: I don't know. I don't know what happened to it. But, but, uh, a group -- a group came from Washington. And, uh, we had to put on the white -- the white coverall, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: And I followed them all around the ship.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: A welder -- I think a welder, you know, something happened to a 119:00welder. Caught fire on -- on -- on the ship. Then -- and see, my supervisor was living in Jersey. He called me early in the morning, "there's a fire in the Navy Yard. Cover it for me." So I don't live far from there. So that's why I took that picture.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh. Oh.

WESLEY FAGAN: But -- but I had to follow them all around the ship. And whatever they want photographed they'll say, "take this." "Take this picture, take this picture," see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: Then I'd go back to the Building 77 and -- and develop it -- and give -- give it to them. Or send it to Washington, see. Or Pentagon, whatever.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: Things were going on, you know.

SADY SULLIVAN: I have a -- a question. And how -- so and actually I'm going to turn this too so that if -- if you have -- have things to add, that would be really great. At this time I know before the Navy Yard closed, um, Shirley Chisholm was already, you know, council member. And she was active in a lot of 120:00stuff in terms of not wanting the -- the Navy Yard to close. Were you aware of that stuff going on?

WESLEY FAGAN: No I -- I wasn't in politics.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: I never was in politics. And I never socialized with the photographers on the outside of the Yard, see. That's why -- that's why nobody knows about these things, see. This -- this is the job for me, and I -- and -- and, uh, some of the photographers, they were wondering how I got the job anyway, you know, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: Because it's unusual you know to be in charge of -- and especially when the government hired me for Fort Hamilton, Fort Wadsworth, you know and-- But the stu- there -- there was about three -- three top studios here in -- in -- in -- in Brooklyn. One that I was, uh, friendly with. Because he did a lot of work. His name was Monclova. And he did a lot of work for -- for Juniors. You, 121:00you see a lot of them out on the water there.

SADY SULLIVAN: Juniors the restaurant?

WESLEY FAGAN: Downtown.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

WESLEY FAGAN: See a lot of -- I don't know whether --this has been years ago now. I don't know the -- because he died a long time ago. And -- and funny you know. He -- he married one of the Shinnecock Indians too. Wife was from that Shinnecock Reservation.

SADY SULLIVAN: Huh.

WESLEY FAGAN: But I met him. He had a studio on -- on Ocean Avenue. But he was a top photographer at the time. And I was friendly with him, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: And they used to worry, how'd you get the job, you know. Then there was a lot of photographers doing freelance work around all of the neighborhood, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: Of course some of them tried to -- some of them -- couple of them come to me. Because I -- you know I -- I was in charge of all -- when I was at Fort Hamilton I was in charge of all the material. All the photo -- photo paper and negatives and film and everything. And they all tried to get me to, uh, loan 122:00them you know, get -- and I wouldn't do that you know.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: Friends of mine. Supposedly friends of mine, you know. But, uh -- but I wasn't -- I wasn't known. And -- and no one knew me. And I didn't enter politics or nothing, you know, see. See, I knew about Shirley Chisholm just from reading in the paper. And -- but, uh, uh, when -- when Martin Luther King came to New York, uh, uh, he, he -- I photographed him, because he came -- he came to New York. And he -- he -- he, uh, visited the -- the -- the Prince Hall Temple up in Wa -- in New York in Manhattan. The Prince Hall. He visited there. And, uh, that's where I had a picture of him and one of the young ladies. That's why -- I got a lot of pictures then. Then he came to this -- this church here around 123:00the corner from me -- me. Round -- round the corner. Green Avenue. He visited the church there. I photographed him there. Martin Luther King, see, I photographed him.

SADY SULLIVAN: That reminds me. I forgot to asl -- what is -- what -- what's your church? You said --

WESLEY FAGAN: My church is -- is Siloam Presbyterian Church. You know that's on Marcy and Jefferson. That's -- that's about a, a block and a half from -- from my wife's church, see. See.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. And your wife's church is Concord Baptist.

WESLEY FAGAN: My wife is in the nursing home there.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: It's a block from the church, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: I used to sing in the choir. I sang in the choir for twenty-five years.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: I became -- I became an elder in the church, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: And my wife -- my wife was a deacon. The one from -- from the reservation.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

WESLEY FAGAN: She was a deacon -- deaconess in the church, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: At Concord Baptist?

WESLEY FAGAN: Huh? Presbyterian. See, my -- my -- my -- my -- my -- my, uh, 124:00Indian wife was Presbyterian. And my wife -- present wife now is Baptist, see. Concord Baptist Church, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: Reverend Gardner Taylor, they named the street after him, Marcy Avenue, after him, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: It's a big church there.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: More questions?

SADY SULLIVAN: I do.

WESLEY FAGAN: Huh.

SADY SULLIVAN: Also do you have questions as you -- as you -- or you know all this?

JANE GREEN: No.

SADY SULLIVAN: No? [laughter]

WESLEY FAGAN: I never entered politics. I never bothered.

JANE GREEN: Most -- most of it, it's the first time I heard it.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh!

WESLEY FAGAN: I went to work and that's it. I didn't have time -- time for politics because I'm a musician.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

WESLEY FAGAN: Musician and I'm working and I'm building in the reservation, I have no time for attending -- take part in, in, in, in -- in politics in Brooklyn, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Um. Why did you -- why did you decide to foster the -- 125:00the four kids that you adopted?

WESLEY FAGAN: Why did I what?

SADY SULLIVAN: Why did you decide to -- to raise the four kids that you were -- were fostering?

WESLEY FAGAN: Why?

JANE GREEN: Why did you decide to adopt the four kids that you did?

WESLEY FAGAN: At -- at the Presbyterian church, one Sunday, a visitor from -- from the -- from the agency came to the church begging people to take kids into the nursing home, see. So my wife, the Indian. We -- we hadn't been married very long you know. We had just left the -- we had just bought this house, see. We had just bought this house, see. And, and, and, so, my wife loves, [inaudible], she must have loved kids, see. So for extra income. And I think they were paying a hundred dollars for each kid or something like that, which was a lot of money, see. A hundred dollars. But that's for the clothing and everything else, feeding them--

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: So -- and I don't think we had the house about five years, about five years, because when I married -- when I married the -- when, uh, when I married Georgia the Indian, I married her, she had a daughter seven years old, see. When I married her, her daughter ran -- ran away from home. Because she and her -- yeah, she and her mother lived with their grandparents on Halsey Street. And she was angry because I'm -- her mother married me, you know. And we had a hard time finding her where she was. So -- so and, and -- and so -- so in the meantime we -- for extra income, you know, we -- when -- when these people came to -- when these agents came to my church from the child welfare, child welfare, begging for children, we decided to get the kids. But, uh, we had to wait over a 127:00year because they said that we -- we hadn't been married long enough, see. And I hadn't gotten used to her daughter.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: So -- so they -- they had -- they gave us a, a year. Uh, maybe longer, I don't remember now, before we could apply for the children.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: So that's how I got these children, through -- through my church, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. And what year did you buy this house?

WESLEY FAGAN: It was in the '50s.

SADY SULLIVAN: In the '50s.

WESLEY FAGAN: In the '50s. In the 50s, yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: And why did you choose to -- to settle in Brooklyn?

WESLEY FAGAN: Hmm?

SADY SULLIVAN: Why did you choose to settle in Brooklyn?

WESLEY FAGAN: Well. [laughter] Well, when, when -- when I was in the Army, my sister was a nurse. You know I told you my sister --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: -- was a nurse. She was head of the nurse at Brookdale Hospital, 128:00which is called Brookdale.

SADY SULLIVAN: On Fulton?

JANE GREEN: No. Not on --

WESLEY FAGAN: On, uh, uh -- is it Brooklyn? What's the name of it now? Brookdale now.

JANE GREEN: Brookdale.

WESLEY FAGAN: It was the name of another -- another -- it was another. Anyway she was -- she was a nurse at -- at -- at this -- at the hospital. And I think it's Brookdale. I think it's Brookdale --

JANE GREEN: It's -- it's out on the parkway, uh--

WESLEY FAGAN: Yeah it's out by Prospect Park.

JANE GREEN: No. It's further --

WESLEY FAGAN: Is it named Brookdale?

JANE GREEN: Yeah. Brook, Brookdale is out on East -- East New York.

WESLEY FAGAN: But -- but it had another name. But anyway -- anyway -- anyway --

JANE GREEN: In that section over there. Brownsville, over on the other side, yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: -- anyway my -- my wife -- my, my sister you know. After she left the Army --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: -- as a nurse. She -- her -- they -- she lived in -- she lived in Brooklyn. She -- when she married -- married her husband who was a postal -- 129:00postal clerk. She -- she moved. She -- she, uh -- she -- she moved. Moved back to her husband here. So she worked at the -- as a head nurse at the hospital.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: So when, when, uh -- when she found out that I was leaving the Army she said why don't I settle. Because I -- I had divorced from my wife. Remember I said that? Divorced [inaudible]. And, and I -- she asked me why don't I come to Brooklyn. So she -- she -- she got -- her -- her -- her mother-in-law's friend had a place on Halsey Street, on Halsey and Boyland. So they got me a room and a half then.

SADY SULLIVAN: Ah.

WESLEY FAGAN: So that's how I came to Brooklyn.

SADY SULLIVAN: Cool.

WESLEY FAGAN: That's how I got the job at the -- at the Manhattan Beach Hospital.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: And where LaGuardia College is now.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. And why did your sister settle in Brooklyn? Do you know why she came to that hospital?

WESLEY FAGAN: Hmm?

SADY SULLIVAN: Why did your sister come to Brooklyn?

WESLEY FAGAN: I don't -- I don't know how she got -- I don't remember. Because -- because she -- she, uh -- she finished with the hospital in Richmond, Virginia. That's where she -- she got her RN degree from. And then when she came to -- to Brooklyn she -- she worked at Coney Island Hospital first, [inaudible].

SADY SULIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: And then -- and then end up at Brookdale Hospital. Brookdale Hospital. So that's -- so when -- when -- when I came to New York she -- she -- she had everything ready -- ready for me, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: And --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Um, other questions--um--

WESLEY FAGAN: There's not much more that I can tell. Lot -- lot of hidden stuff I -- that I can't mention.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter] Did you --

WESLEY FAGAN: Because I was young and foolish you know.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

WESLEY FAGAN: In a new life. Going to New York. Being a big -- big success you know.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

WESLEY FAGAN: Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: I can imagine.

WESLEY FAGAN: Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: Um, did you say that your mom -- your mom -- did you say that your mother was from Ireland?

WESLEY FAGAN: No no. I don't know where she was from, no.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, okay.

WESLEY FAGAN: No, no, she wasn't from Ireland.

SADY SULLIVAN: Okay.

WESLEY FAGAN: No, I don't know. I don't even know her parents, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: I know very little about -- about my, my -- my, uh -- my mother's family.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: Because see, a lot of -- a lot of things in -- in years ago when I was very young, every -- everything is kept hush you know. They -- they -- a lot of things were going on that you didn't know, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: One -- one thing I remember, uh, distinctly, that -- that my town, 132:00the town that I was -- they didn't allow people to wear pants. Didn't wear no pants, see. If you wore pants you wasn't straight -- you wasn't straight, see. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: That's -- I remember that distinctly.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: And I -- then I remember -- I remember an, an integrated couple moved -- moved -- moved to my hometown. They didn't stay there. They -- they didn't stay overnight. Well, they probably stayed a short time. I didn't -- I was young then. Very young.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

WESLEY FAGAN: I can't -- but they didn't -- they didn't stay there very long, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow. Why?

WESLEY FAGAN: Oh, integration, they didn't have it in those days, you know.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: So I've been through all that, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

WESLEY FAGAN: I've been through all that, what -- what -- in my young days, see. That's why I have a lot of history [inaudible].

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

WESLEY FAGAN: Because I played, even when I was in college, you know, and played 133:00in the band, we -- we played a lot of -- we played in -- when -- when I was playing, when I was playing in [inaudible], the, uh, a band in Atlanta, Georgia, the college I went to, see, when -- when I was playing, the orchestra I played for, we used to play for the man that owned the Coca-Cola plant. He had a mansion there, and from Atlanta. He's from Atlanta. And we used to -- we used to play his barbecue and everything else, see. And then we used to broadcast from -- we used to broadcast from Atlanta. But we always had to use the back store, the elevator. And -- and the colored bathroom and everything else, see, I've been through all that, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: All -- traveling all through the South.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: I played one -- I played one big affair. I never will forget this. I played one big affair in -- in Atlanta, Georgia. And -- and for millionaires, 134:00you know. And they put -- put so many flowers in front -- front of the bandstand you couldn't even see the people. They -- they didn't want to be associated. They wanted the music but they didn't want -- they didn't want you to look, you know.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh. Oh.

WESLEY FAGAN: I -- I've been through all this, see. What -- what's you gonna do.

SADY SULLIVAN: And how does that -- I mean how does that feel to have -- to have experienced such a big social change?

WESLEY FAGAN: Hmm?

SADY SULLIVAN: In -- how does that feel in your lifetime to have seen that social change?

JANE GREEN: She said how does that feel to see such a social change that --

WESLEY FAGAN: Well, I feel -- I feel it was the right -- social change was the right thing. I believe it has been. And I just -- I just feel sorry for my -- I feel hurt because I -- I couldn't do no more than what I did do.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: In those days. Because I -- because I was in such a position at the Navy Yard, I mean the job I am was kind of outstanding, you know. I couldn't just quit the job and things like that, so. But I -- I just feel even today. It hurts that I couldn't -- wasn't a part of -- of what was really the center of what was going on you know. With King and down South and --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: I can -- but I've given -- I've given a lot of money to building of his -- the -- the -- the, uh -- the statue in Washington that they're building of him.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: I've given a lot of money for -- for that thing.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

JANE GREEN: Would you like a cup of tea or something?

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, I'm okay. But please do, if you -- thank you though.

WESLEY FAGAN: But change has to be made. And even more so. And -- and with all 136:00these hi-fis and TVs and all that. I experienced all that. They didn't have it in my day.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: No, no, no, no, no.

SADY SULLIVAN: What do you think about digital cameras now? Um, digital cameras instead of film?

WESLEY FAGAN: Yeah. You know it's, it's, it's -- it's a -- it's taking away a lot from the old photographers like me, you know. And -- and another thing too. As a musician we got plenty of work, you know. But now these DJs have put -- put the musicians out of work, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

WESLEY FAGAN: See, put all the musicians out of work, see. That's why you don't find too many musicians now, see. Everything is DJ. Everybody's hiring DJs, see, 137:00and a big band costs too much money, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: So I've seen too -- too many changes, see. I've seen changes in photography. And so -- I got -- I got ten or fifteen different cameras here. I got one camera that I paid five thousand dollars for.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow.

WESLEY FAGAN: They don't use it anymore, see. All obsolete, see. This digital is the thing, see. That's what I'm using. Just digital camera. See, the small, you know.

SADY SULLIVAN: You use a digital camera now?

WESLEY FAGAN: So it's been two changes. I've seen two changes, you know. Change in music, the hip-hop. And -- and -- and I don't care for this hip-hop. And I don't -- I don't care for this vulgarity that they're using. And I don't care for that. Being -- being a Christian, you know. And I don't care for that kind. I don't go to any of those affairs now. And I don't agree with Simmons, and he's 138:00head of one of the biggest hip-hop organs. And a lot of other -- other. Of course I'm old -- from the old school. Naturally I feel that way.

JANE GREEN: And they're in it for the money.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: But I'm still a hundred years old.

SADY SULLIVAN: That's wonderful.

WESLEY FAGAN: I'm -- I'm still breathing. I don't know how long I'm going to breathe. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: What's the secret? What's the secret?

JANE GREEN: Ah, well--

WESLEY FAGAN: Is it still on?

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

WESLEY FAGAN: [laughter] But you can cancel -- you can cancel some of this, right?

SADY SULLIVAN: Whatever you want. Whatever you want.

WESLEY FAGAN: You can cancel.

SADY SULLIVAN: Um, well actually then -- then if there's -- is there anything I didn't think to ask about that -- that I should? That you want to talk about?

WESLEY FAGAN: Well, I -- I want to -- I want to tell --

JANE GREEN: I bet he wrote a book already.

WESLEY FAGAN: I want to tell about my recreation.

SADY SULLIVAN: Okay.

WESLEY FAGAN: [laughter] I go to Atlantic City every week. [laughter]

JANE GREEN: Tropicana, his second home.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

WESLEY FAGAN: That's my --

SADY SULLIVAN: And are you lucky there?

WESLEY FAGAN: That's, that's what --

JANE GREEN: He just has fun.

WESLEY FAGAN: -- that's one of my outlets, see. I -- I go -- I enjoy playing the machines.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY GREEN: And, uh -- and then -- then -- then the main -- the main reason why because that's the life I've been in all my life in -- in cabaret life.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY GREEN: I've been around showgirls and -- and -- and half-naked people. And gay people, lesbian, I've been among all of them, see, I played for all of them, see. That's been my life. So that's why I go to Atlantic City. Because 140:00some -- something is left for me to enjoy.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

JANE GREEN: That's all he does. And go to church.

WESLEY FAGAN: And I enjoy playing the machines, and --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: But it's no -- it's -- it doesn't affect my living. Financially or nothing. It has nothing to do with -- because I'm not a -- I'm not a gamb -- what I consider a real gambler, see.

JANE GREEN: He knows when to stop.

WESLEY FAGAN: I use discretion in -- in what I do.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: I go by myself. I go by Greyhound. And, uh, I, I -- I use -- I use the walker, I use the cane, see. The bus drivers, they all know me. They all know me down in Atlantic City. I go down there and have a good meal every weekend. And have the best of food. At my building, at the Hilton, or, or the --

JANE GREEN: Tropicana.

WESLEY FAGAN: Tropicana. Tropicana is my -- my favorite. My favorite, um, casino, see. And they all know me there, you know. And they treat me swell. They give me a a hundred birthday present. For food. And other money to -- to play with at times, see. So -- so that's the enjoyment that I get out of a hundred and -- and three months, age, you see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: I have a very, very good friend named Jane Green.

JANE GREEN: Oh my goodness, well, thank you.

WESLEY FAGAN: And she's been --

JANE GREEN: I try.

WESLEY FAGAN: -- she's been at my side, she belongs to the same senior citizen center I belong to. And she's -- she's very nice to me and very comfortable in, 142:00in my presence and I feel comfortable with her, see. And since -- and I have -- I have -- I have a few friends. But most -- most of all my friends are musicians and most of them are dead. Most of them. So I'm still breathing. Still breathing. That's my life. Or part of it anyway. There's a lot of hidden part that I haven't explained, too. But -- but I -- I'll keep it as a secret, you know. That's all I -- all I have left as a secret.

SADY SULLIVAN: Fair enough. Fair enough. [laughter] Well thank you. This has 143:00been really wonderful.

WESLEY FAGAN: Now what -- what is this for?

SADY SULLIVAN: Hmm?

WESLEY FAGAN: What is this --

JANE GREEN: What is this for? [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: Okay. Well then we can -- let me show you. This is -- this interview will be archived at the -- the Brooklyn Navy Yard and also at the Brooklyn Historical Society.

WESLEY FAGAN: Oh. Historical.

SADY SULLIVAN: And what that means is that this recording will be saved and preserved for, you, know our -- our archival practices. We're planning for a hundred years in the future, two hundred years in the future. So -- so this is preserved for the future.

WESLEY FAGAN: Yeah. I've been trying to get this in the news. I've been trying to get this in the news. Because I felt that the public should know about my life, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: I agree. I agree.

WESLEY FAGAN: Because I had a good life. But I sent the news. I, I, I ----I sent 144:00it. I sent the news. You saw this.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

WESLEY FAGAN: I sent the news. Um, this is -- before I got this from -- from, um -- from Hynes, I sent them about the Navy Yard and -- and about my life. But I never heard no more from him.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

WESLEY FAGAN: That's before -- before I got this from him, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah. Well --

WESLEY FAGAN: And Mr. Fletcher. Mr. Fletcher, his picture was in, he was in the -- the -- the Office of, uh, Attorney General. He was a member of, uh, staff there. He would visit the center. Fort Green Center on -- on Fulton Street. And, and I met him there. He was there explaining about crime for -- for Hynes. He was -- to the -- to the public, um. And I met him. And he asked -- he asked for 145:00an interview from me. So that's how I got -- that's how he introduced me to, to -- to Hynes, see. So that's why Hynes invited me and honored me, see.

JANE GREEN: They -- they wanted to give him a big honorary party.

WESLEY FAGAN: That's the reason why he -- name of Fletcher. They had a big write-up in the paper about him. And --

SADY SULLIVAN: Well, what -- what these are. This is the, um -- this is the release form for this interview to go into the -- the archives, both at the Navy Yard and at the Brooklyn Historical Society. And what -- what I'm thinking, um, we do -- we have a blog. Do you -- do you look at stuff online at all on the Internet?

WESLEY FAGAN: Do I what?

SADY SULLIVAN: Do you look at, um, the Internet at all?

WESLEY FAGAN: No. No I don't. I'm not a part of the Internet, no, no.

SADY SULLIVAN: Well, well, one of the things that we do is, um, we -- we -- it's sort of like having a newspaper. But instead of it being a print newspaper it's 146:00a -- it's a newspaper on the computer. And we -- I would like to take a clip from this audio of this interview and have that on our blog. If that's something that -- that you feel comfortable with.

JANE GREEN: You, you -- you want to go on as -- you want part of this to go on, so people can, can see it?

WESLEY FAGAN: Well, some -- some things I wouldn't want to mention. I wouldn't like to mention about my uncle, you know.

JANE GREEN: [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: Right.

WESLEY FAGAN: Yeah see. I --

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

JANE GREEN: You just take one thing.

SADY SULLIVAN: Just one yeah.

JANE GREEN: Oh. She just takes one.

WESLEY FAGAN: I definite -- I would definitely want that, see. But for -- but for my accomplishments --

SADY SULLIVAN: So what story -- yes. Well we could --

WESLEY FAGAN: For my accomplishment, see. I don't mind that.

JANE GREEN: Okay. So which one of these, uh, incidents would you like to be on? 147:00What -- what -- what -- the most important thing you would like to see? For everybody to see?

WESLEY FAGAN: Well, well I -- I -- I would like to -- to -- I like for the information --

JANE GREEN: About what?

WESLEY FAGAN: About you -- you -- you -- you can cancel out how I got these jobs and the machine gun plant. You can only say that -- that I entered as a -- as a porter and -- and -- and I worked my way up to precision gauge. And, uh, uh -- but you -- you don't have -- you don't have information about how I worked my way up, see. Just -- just say that I worked my way up as -- as a -- from a machinist to the precision gauge lab. When -- and that I had, uh, formed an 148:00orchestra with a group. That -- see, because, see -- see this is from the Department -- Department of, um -- all this is from the Department. This -- this is the orchestra that I was -- at -- at -- at the machine gun plant.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: But when I -- when I was going to -- it tells you about what -- what I did here. The -- that Mr. Fagan had sixteen months' experience in the pole department operating various machines. He also has experience in building and repairing the .30 -- the .50-caliber -- .30- and .50-caliber machine gun. And in, in addition Mr. Fagan has some experience as fire -- on the firing range. Function firing. Guns, belts and barrel. I like that. That -- that I 149:00worked from -- from -- from -- from a porter. You understand?

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: All the way up to, to -- this is mine and this is from the War Department. All of these commendations are from -- from the War -- War Department. All these -- all these commendations are from --

JANE GREEN: Maybe that and then -- then something about his music. You know how brought -- came up with his --

WESLEY FAGAN: See all of these is from the --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: And this -- this one is very important. This is why -- this is why I -- I took the job I told you about, discrimination about the two fellows. See this job. I want to express my sincere appreciation to you and your office. For -- this is addressed to me.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: From -- from -- from the Captain Salvator.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-Hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: Fort Hamilton. I want to express my sincere appreciation to you and your office for providing the outstanding professional service of Mr. Wesley 150:00Fagan, supervisor photograph service Fort Hamilton during the NATO --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: -- NATO information officers tour. The NATO officers.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: That's a big thing.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: The NATO officers came to this United States. And --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: And I didn't send these two photographers because I couldn't trust them.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: So I took the job myself. So this is the commendation letter I received from NATO. I followed them all around New York in -- in the radio station, they didn't do much television at the time. All in the officers' clubs and places that -- that most people couldn't go. I followed them around. And took pictures, see. This is the commendation letter I got from them. I'd like that -- that to be mentioned, see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. I'm just going to -- let's pause for one second, because 151:00I want to make sure -- okay, we're good.

WESLEY FAGAN: Then all of these commendations. Boy Scouts.

JANE GREEN: Well --

WESLEY FAGAN: NATO.

JANE GREEN: The most important things. The most important thing was, was what you mentioned about your beginning --

WESLEY FAGAN: Yeah that -- that -- that's important.

JANE GREEN: -- and -- and this is for the -- and -- and in between. And -- and then something about your band. What, what would you want to say?

WESLEY FAGAN: Yeah the important things you know.

JANE GREEN: Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: And can we put something about the Navy Yard in there too? Because --

JANE GREEN: Oh definitely.

SADY SULLIVAN: -- because Brooklyn. [laughter]

JANE GREEN: Oh yes. Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah. Okay. Good.

WESLEY FAGAN: Everything about the Navy Yard, you, you --

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah can be in here. Okay, because that will --

JANE GREEN: In there, yes. Yeah, yeah.

WESLEY FAGAN: Everything about the Navy Yard you can print.

SADY SULLIVAN: Okay.

JANE GREEN: Yes.

WESLEY FAGAN: Everything, yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: Okay, great.

WESLEY FAGAN: But -- but some of the things that, that, uh -- you can leave out 152:00about the -- the, the, the -- the Jehovah's Witnesses building. I told you about you know top secret building -- some of that top secret -- don't mention that.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

JANE GREEN: Yeah, you can --

SADY SULLIVAN: Okay. So those will stay in the archives --

WESLEY FAGAN: What I would like --

SADY SULLIVAN: -- but it won't be public.

JANE GREEN: Mm. Exactly.

WESLEY FAGAN: For you to -- if it's possible to send me the information that you're going to put in it --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

WESLEY FAGAN: -- and then I -- and then I can okay what, what else.

SADY SULLIVAN: Absolutely.

WESLEY FAGAN: [inaudible]

JANE GREEN: Okay.

SADY SULLIVAN: Absolutely.

JANE GREEN: Sounds good.

SADY SULLIVAN: Okay.

WESLEY FAGAN: Because some things I told you I wouldn't want -- I wouldn't want my mother to know about, you know.

JANE GREEN: [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: I know. I understand that.

JANE GREEN: You don't want that on TV.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter] Okay. Well, I will send you anything that we make public. You'll -- you will review.

JANE GREEN: Okay, very good.

WESLEY FAGAN: Yeah, yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: And okay. And if you have changes we'll make the changes. And that's all good.

JANE GREEN: That would be great.

SADY SULLIVAN: Good. So, um --

WESLEY FAGAN: Oh, I didn't even offer you a tea or --

JANE GREEN: I just asked her did she want a cup of tea, she said --

WESLEY FAGAN: -- a soda, beer, nothing.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yes, yes no I'm fine, thank you, though.

WESLEY FAGAN: I forgot.

SADY SULLIVAN: I'm going to get a pen so that we can do these -- these release forms.

WESLEY FAGAN: [laughter] Do you think I did all right?

JANE GREEN: Beautiful.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.