Helen Gagliardi

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Hello?

SADY SULLIVAN: Hello, is this Helen?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Yes.

SADY SULLIVAN: Hi, this is Sady from the Brooklyn Historical Society.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Oh, how -- That's right. You were gonna call today.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yes is --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Okay, what can do we do --

SADY SULLIVAN: -- is this still a good time?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: I guess so.

SADY SULLIVAN:Okay. Um, well, firstly, I am recording. So I wanted to get your permission to record our phone conversation.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Along with all my mistakes, go ahead.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yes. Great. Okay. And so, uh, just to formally begin, uh, today is August 11th, 2010. I'm Sady Sullivan with the Brooklyn Historical Society. This interview is for the Brooklyn Navy Yard oral history project. And now, if you don't mind, um, if you would introduce yourself to the recording, however you want to.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Oh dear. I have several choices. [laughter] Helen Gagliardi, age 85, former New Yorker, current California resident, somewhat surprised to say that, by the way. Uh, ex-employee of the, uh, Brooklyn Navy Yard. And I must 2:00say that that employment is a bit foggy, uh, in my memory right now.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: But, let's see what we can do.

SADY SULLIVAN: Great. Um, so for the record, just because it's -- it's very interesting, so I -- Maybe you could tell us, uh, for the recording, how -- how we came to be, um, in touch. And that was through a tour of the Navy Yard. So could you --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Correct.

SADY SULLIVAN:-- um, tell me how that -- how that came about?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Oh, ahem, my daughter, who is also an ex-New Yorker, that is, a native Brooklynite, who has moved to Massachusetts, made a return visit, ahem, discovered that the Historical Society was running this once a month tour, remembered that I had been a part of the Navy Yard, thought I would enjoy it, and arranged to have, uh -- She did buy the tickets and arrange to have us go 3:00down to New York for that particular weekend. Ahem, she thought it would be an eye-opening experience for me. And, oh, how right she was.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter] Um, so tell me about that experience.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Are we gonna talk about the original one or the tour?

SADY SULLIVAN: Uh, well first, let's start with the tour. And then -- And then we'll sort of --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Okay.

SADY SULLIVAN:-- go back and loop around.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Ahem, well, the tour was absolutely an eye-opener. I'm ashamed to say this. But until, uh, this particular tour, I honestly did not know where the Brooklyn Navy Yard was located. I know it was on the Brooklyn, uh, waterfront. But, but just exactly where, I didn't know.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Uh, I would -- would arrive there by bus, and, uh, leave by bus. I never knew the geography very well. Ahem, as a matter of fact, I was afraid of the geography. I was told that it was an unpleasant neighborhood and, uh, one did not wander around there. But the tour was an eye-opener. I couldn't believe some of the things that I saw, like green grass and full-grown trees. 4:00They were totally beyond my experience. And, uh, the rather, uh, emptiness of the Brooklyn Navy Yard as it exists today was a great surprise to me. It always seemed intensely crowded, you know, shoulder to shoulder occu -- occupation. Does that make sense to you?

SADY SULLIVAN: Yes, it does.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Okay. And of course it did look a little bit run-down.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Uh, I saw very little of the Brooklyn Navy Yard when I was employed there. I, uh, went through the gate into the building where I was employed, came out the same way, and never did, uh, explore the area.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: I knew nothing about the surrounding area, except it had a bad reputation.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And as a nineteen, twenty-year-old single girl, the [laughter] -- the opportunity to, to explore it would never occurred to me.

SADY SULLIVAN: Right. Right.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And I was pleasantly surprised to see housing that looked, uh, comfortable and -- and efficient, something I was totally unaware of.

SADY SULLIVAN: In the neighborhood today, you mean?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Yes.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Yes.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: I used to arrive about 6:00 AM in the morning, maybe a little bit later, and, uh, it would be quite dark. And, uh, I disappeared into the Sand Street gate and that was the end of that.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Um, great. Thank you. Well, we will come back to more -- more details about the Navy Yard. But first, I want to cycle back to, uh, some more biographical info about you. Um, so for the archives, what is your, uh, date of birth?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: [redacted for privacy], 1925.

SADY SULLIVAN: And where were you born?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: I was born at -- in Kings County Hospital.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: I'm about as Brooklynite as you can get.

SADY SULLIVAN: That's right. Um, and so tell me a little bit about your parents.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Uh, my mother was, uh, a recent, uh, arrival in Brooklyn. She had been, uh -- Well, she was born and brought up on a farm in south Jersey, uh, rather a protected life, I think.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: She contracted flu at the end of World War II or -- or World War I, excuse me, and survived it, surprisingly, was told not to face the next winter in cold New Jersey. And she was shipped off to Florida --

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: -- alone. And, uh, someone in Florida was a -- a family member or a friend of the family. And she was gonna be employed as a waitress in the Greentree Inn, I believe it was called. She had been a practical nurse before that. And, uh, this was gonna be a new experience for her. While she was there, she met my father who was -- I don't know whether he was still in the Navy or 7:00had just been released from the Navy. And, uh, a very hasty marriage, uh, ensued, probably a very unwise one, by the way.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: She was a devout Catholic, had known very little. He must have been just as devout as a Protestant, I imagine.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh! Oh.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And they were both away from their families. And, uh, the restraints that would have been, uh, provided, if they had been with their families, were completely gone.

SADY SULLIVAN: Right. And so --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: -- where was his family? Where did he grow up?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Oh, he came from Virginia --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: -- Virginia, rather, uh, aristocratic family, I think. And she was a little farm girl from Jersey.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. And what about your grandparents?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Uh, I had one set of grandparents who came from Ireland. I'm rather proud of my grandmother. Most stories will tell you about the man of the 8:00family who took the -- one of the coffin ships I think they used to call them, uh, during the Irish Potato Famine --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: -- and made their way to America and eventually sent for the rest of the family. This was a reverse situation. My grandmother came alone. And, uh, well, they were married in 1884. She -- I've been trying to find out just when she arrived, a few years later. She came by herself.

SADY SULLIVAN: From Ireland?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: She had been -- From Ireland.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Right. She was born Fethard, County Tipperary, as she called it. She never said TIP-per-rare-ee. She always said TipPRAIR-rie. And she was offered a job in a bakery that was owned and operated by, uh, neighbors I think they were, or something of the -- you know, some similar situation. She came alone, worked in the battery -- in the bakery, saved enough money to send for her husband and her child --

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: -- and event -- Very unusual.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: She was a strong and fantastically, uh, capable woman.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Ahem, and when he arrived, they took up tenant farming in South Jersey. Uh, he eventually, at a rather early age, died of tuberculosis, which I understand, which they tell me, he contracted from the cows. I didn't know cows had tuberculosis.

SADY SULLIVAN: Ah.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And was -- he left his wife a widow with nine children, thank you. And she managed to bring up the nine children all by herself.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: I had -- I haven't yet located the date on which he died, but it was, you know, fairly early.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Um, and so what was her name, your grandmother --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Her name was -- Her maiden name was Ellen Larkin. I'm proud to tell you that. Of course she became Ellen Sullivan after she married Patrick Sullivan [10:00].

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: I've been to Fethard in County Tipperary where they were married in 1884, I got a little bit of the background.

SADY SULLIVAN:Wow.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Now, I'm rather, rather -- She must have been an extraordinarily strong woman. I never met her.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Never met her.

SADY SULLIVAN: So where in the nine children was your mother born?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: My mother was born in -- in, uh, South Jersey on a farm in 1892.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, wow. Um, and so tell me a little bit about your father's parents.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: I know very little about him.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: The marriage fell apart, as it well might have under the circumstances.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And, uh, I know his mother died when he was fairly young. And he was adopted by a -- a sister. That is, his mother's sister, a very common procedure in those days, you know? No formal adoption, you just took over the -- the, uh, needy children and raised them as your own.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And I think that was more or less the story. So he was brought up in New York, much to his surprise and mine too.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. And so how did you come to be born in Brooklyn?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Oh, my -- When she was first married, my mother was living in Florida. And my father was working on what eventually became, uh, the inland waterway. It was draining the swamps in the Everglades, that sort of thing. And it must have been a miserable experience for her, living through the summers with lots of insects and no -- no air conditioning, and probably no electricity --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: -- trying to raise a baby with, uh, no refrigeration. I know that was one of her problems. And she used to say the curtains never fit the -- fit the windows. They had to move every six months as the canal or the waterway was completed. So she came to Brooklyn, uh, for her confinement and stayed, 12:00never went back.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: I think that's the story. I can't be sure of that.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: There may have been other reasons, but that was the story that I -- I've kind of gleaned.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. And so did --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: In the meantime, the family that my father had been adopted into was a rather well entrenched family. Uh, again, uh, they go all the way back to 1628 or something like that, when the, uh, English arrived and took command of New Amsterdam from the Dutch.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, wow. And so what's -- what's your father's name?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Oh, his name was Fletcher, oh, Fletcher -- god, I can't remember. [laughter] Fletcher, Fletcher, Fletcher, oh dear. Forgive me. I'll have to think that one over a minute.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, that's fine. Um, so --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: He was brought up in another family, though.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And we, we -- they -- my -- the family that he was brought up 13:00in -- And where, where my mother eventually wound up, she did go, uh, to live with them, uh, after I was born. And, uh, ahem, they were very much involved in Brooklyn history.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Very much involved.

SADY SULLIVAN: So -- So your parents, did they stay together when they were --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: No, no, no.

SADY SULLIVAN: -- living in Brooklyn?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: They definitely did not.

SADY SULLIVAN: I see. I see. Um. So what neighborhood were you -- did you --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Well I -- I

SADY SULLIVAN: -- live in when you were little?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: -- I was born in Kings County Hospital, but I went to live at 39 Windsor Place, which was in Windsor Terrace as -- as it's called today.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yup.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And, uh, lived there until either late 1829 or 1930 when the, uh, financial disaster was -- you know, was really felt.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Um, and then where did you move to?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Oh, we moved to East Flatbush. Oh, 1902 East 47th Street, which 14:00later became known as Schenectady Aft -- Avenue. Fortunately, we moved before that, because I don't think I have ever learned to spell Kene -- Schenectady.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughing] And do you know --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: I did start school at P.S. 203. And I graduated from there.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, great.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And then I went to St. Brendan's Diocesan High School, and eventually took a couple of degrees at Brooklyn College.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: I went all the way through. I got a masters and was working on a Ph.D. And didn't get it because my -- my thesis turned out to be incorrect. I proved myself wrong, let's put it that way.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh no!

HELEN GAGLIARDI: My thesis was that there would be a connection between listening skills and intelligence. Guess what? There isn't.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh! That -- Well, as someone who does interviews I'm very sad to hear that. [laughter]

HELEN GAGLIARDI: [laughter] But I was -- I -- As I went through Brooklyn College 15:00as an undergraduate, I was supposed to be a chemistry major.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And that's how I wound up at the Navy Yard.

SADY SULLIVAN: Great. Okay. So tell me, how did you come to be working at the Navy Yard?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Well, now that's a mystery to me, too. [laughter] Uh, I don't think I ever apply -- I know I didn't apply for a job at the Navy Yard. Uh, I wouldn't have considered such a thing.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: You know, it had such a bad reputation. But, uh, I'm -- And I struggle to find out the exact details. There may have been a notice on the bulletin board. There may have been a -- a visitor. There were frequently --

SADY SULLIVAN: This was at Brooklyn College --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Brooklyn College, yes.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yup.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: I was in my sophomore year --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: -- and I had decided that I would get a job. Financially, would -- it certainly would have been a help.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And, uh, I'm, I'm -- The best of my knowledge at the moment, as I think, I either read something on the bulletin -- bulletin board -- I was 16:00always reading about the possibilities for chemistry people.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And, uh -- Or else a recruiter came and talked to us about the joys of working in chemistry, didn't say where. That much I know. I was shocked when I found out it was in the Navy Yard.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh. And was the reputation more about the neighborhood of the Navy Yard? Or was it about --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Definitely.

SADY SULLIVAN: -- the actual --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: It was definitely a terrible place. One did not go there.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: And that -- was that because of the sailors or because of the --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: No. It was because, well, I was a female, and that That was the Navy's, uh, territory. And god knows what else went on down there, you know? It definitely was a -- an obscure, unpleasant place to be.

SADY SULLIVAN: Right. Right.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: But I did remember talking to someone about the advantages of working -- Oh, working in the chemistry field appealed to me tremendously --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: -- you know? It was a -- a start on my vocation.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: I was gonna save the world, by the way.

SADY SULLIVAN: I was gonna say, how did you get interested in chemistry?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: That's a good question. I don't even -- Well, maybe Madam Curie or someone like that, or I was gonna wear a white naval coat, you know? I was definitely gonna -- not going to go into one of those ordinary, uh -- sort of, uh, ordinary professions like teaching or some -- When you're an Irish girl, you had two choices. You could become a secretary or work for the telephone company.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And neither one appealed to me.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: So I wound up taking chemistry courses.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. That's great. Um, and so did you have to leave college to go -- in order to go --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: No, no.

SADY SULLIVAN: -- go work at the Navy Yard?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: They had a very wonderful -- This, this again, bothers me. I'm not sure of the details.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: But it strikes me that I was going to get partial credit for the work that I did at the Navy Yard.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh!

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Uh, in other words, they were working on synthetic rubber. And I remember somebody saying, "You can't learn anything about synthetic rubber here in the classroom."

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And they were quite true, you know? There was no such thing. But by working in the Navy Yard, I would get part -- I think -- I hope this isn't an incorrect statement. I know I had to continue at night.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And that was a -- a rough detail.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: I would be working at the Navy Yard. Well, they were working 12-hour shifts, but I would be, uh, allowed to leave at 4:00 or 5:00 -- I've forgotten -- because I had to take my night classes.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And I would go on this special bus, which took us from the Sand Street gate back to the Long Island Railroad.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh! Down --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: That's where the bus picked you up in the morning.

SADY SULLIVAN: -- down near Atlantic?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Anyone who had to get to the Navy Yard, uh, the bus would be parked outside the Long Island Railroad, you know, to take care of the people that came in from Long Island.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And they took you non-stop down to the Sand Street gate.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh! And so who would be on the bus with you?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: All the fellow employees, some of the professional people, but a great many of the welders and the other people who were working at the -- uh, at the very important job that they did in, in construction.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And there were many, many people coming in on the Longin Rail -- Long Island Railroad, and many more of us who arrived down at the Brook -- at the Long Island Railroad by public transportation.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: I came down on the Flatbush Avenue, I don't remember whether it was a trolley or a bus at that particular time.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Because you were living in East Flatbush at that time?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Yes.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so who -- The -- the people on the bus, was it mostly men?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Mostly men --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: -- mmm, yeah. And I had no opportunity to socialize with them since I normally brought my college books with me. And I would take a seat, immediately open up a book and go, you know, and try and get my lessons down --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: -- since I was going to school at night.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: So there was no social life whatsoever.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Um, so tell me about the actual -- your actual work at the Navy Yard.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Well, I never did work on synthetic rubber. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh!

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Oh, well, I was in the lab and I was around it, but I certainly didn't have to -- I didn't have the expertise, I guess.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Uh, but of course the -- the, uh, chemical lab had been in existence long before the World War I, uh, II. And, uh, that was not their reason for being there. They did testing. I think they were like a -- a control of the materials that the Navy bought, metals being one of them. Lots of metals were being purchased by the Navy. And we did, uh, quantitative analysis to make sure that they were correct. We also were doing testing on loo -- lube oils. I 21:00remember that. Every once and awhile some seaman would turn up with four quart -- not quart, liter bottles of fuel -- of lube oil and we were supposed to test them and make sure they were proper, they had the proper viscosity for the engines.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh! And so who were you working with?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Well, the people I remember, uh, was Edna Daggerly -- she's now known as Edna Schultz -- and, uh, Margaret Lockwood, an older woman.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And she was kind of motherly and took a lot of us under her control. There were a lot of, uh, young female workers in the lab. I have an idea. I don't know that this is accurate. But chemists were not exempt from the draft, at least the men that were working there seemed to disappear regularly, and would be replaced by a woman.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, because they were going off --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: I don't think they were exempt from the draft.

SADY SULLIVAN: Right. Right.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: I honestly don't know that as a fact. So don't quote me on it.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: But --

SADY SULLIVAN: So was it something --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Slowly but surely, in the year that I was there, or the more than the year that I was there, the men began to disappear and were replaced by women. It turned out to be an almost female activity.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow. And so --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: I only remember three men working there when, uh -- when the war ended.

SADY SULLIVAN:Wow. Um, and so what years --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: There may have been others, but I only remember three. Let's put it that way.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah. What year about were you there?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: I started somewhere in the early part of 1944. And I stayed until the war ended.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, wow.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Oh, a few months after the war ended. I think I left in October of '45.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, and so was there -- was there a training program for the lab?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: There probably was. Uh, I'm rather hazy about it.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: I was just sent in to do the things that I could do. I certainly could do the mineral matter testing on metals.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And I certainly did test the lube oils.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. And did that experience, like you were told, um, did that help your chemistry education?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: It was supposed to. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: Uh-huh.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: I honestly don't remember whether I ever got credit for it or not.

SADY SULLIVAN: Uh-huh.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: I wasn't taking any chemistry courses at this particular time. You know, I took other courses.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Um, and then how did you -- How did you come to be doing a thesis about listening?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Say that again, please.

SADY SULLIVAN: How did you come to be doing a thesis about, uh, listening --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Oh this was -- This was years later, of course. I was working on my -- my -- I finished my master's degree. At this point, I'm married and I'm teaching.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: I was teaching science, by the way.

SADY SULLIVAN: Ah, OK.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Ahem, and in that respect, I'm very grateful to the -- to the chemistry courses I took. I was teaching science to elementary school kids.

SADY SULLIVAN: Ah!

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Remember, we had a big push in the '50s to catch up with the Russians. We weren't doing enough with our children. And I was in the -- I was teaching a special class for intellectually gifted kids. And, uh, we taught them, aside from their regular, uh, curriculum, you know, the reading, writing, and arithmetic. We gave them a laboratory science, a foreign language, a musical instrument, and typing.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And, uh, at one point -- Ahem, this was called the ICG program, the intellectually gifted children.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And we were sued, uh, by an organization that felt we were running an elitist program and using public money for it, which I guess we were.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: So we lost our funding.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh!

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Ahem, but the Astor Foundation came to our rescue. And they funded our classes for multiple years, uh, when we couldn't use public funding.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: So we were doing -- running our ICG program on the Astor Foundation money. And we called the program then the Astor Foundation.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh. And was that --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And then we --

SADY SULLIVAN: -- was that in New York?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And then by law, we -- we were permit -- We -- They also sued us for the, uh, IQ tests we were using. They went into court and said, well, our IQ tests were unfavorably skewed towards the advantages or something. So we couldn't use our IQ test anymore. The way the children were admitted to our program, they had to have a 155 IQ, two years ahead in reading and math. And those scores were -- Not everybody had those scores, of course.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And, uh, well, we still managed to put together a class of third graders. They were called the vestibule kids. They were waiting to get into the formal program, fourth, fifth, and sixth.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And, uh, when we lost our IQ test, we were in bad shape. How were we gonna determine what the kids were capable of doing?

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: So that's when I came up with this brilliant, but erroneous idea that there might be a ca -- a connection between listening skills and IQ.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Too bad I couldn't find one.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: But this, of course, is many years after the -- my experience with the Navy Yard and the chemistry lab.

SADY SULLIVAN: Right. And -- So -- But I'm -- I'm just curious for second. So was that, um, in -- Was that in New York that you were teaching?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Oh, of course. This was in the Brooklyn -- the New York City Public Schools.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, wow. So in Brooklyn, too?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Yes. There was a magnificent, uh, teacher, principal, Elsa Ebling. I mentioned her name, like -- like a saint. She was in charge of a -- of a school in, in East Flatbush, 208. And she was concerned about these brilliant 27:00kids that were stagnating in the average class with nothing much to challenge them.

SADY SULLIVAN: Right.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: So she would go all around Brooklyn schools, looking at the kids' records. And if she found a youngster who had these, uh, elevated IQs and abilities, she would ask that that child be transferred to 208. And believe it or not, lots of parents didn't want to send the kids. The teachers were glad to get rid of them: "Oh, take him. You really don't want him. He's a troublesome child. You'll never know the kind of problems he creates." Well, of course he created problems. He was bored stiff.

SADY SULLIVAN: Right.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: So by the time we got our hands on him and gave him a lot of work to do, that was the end of his problems.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, that's so great. And so where was P.S. 208?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: It was at East 48th Street and Avenue D, way out beyond the -- the, uh, subway line in a remote corner of Brooklyn.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, that's so great.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: But Elsa Ebling was a dynamic, wonderful woman who saw this 28:00need and did something about it. And within her regular elementary school, she ran this program for the intellectually gifted.

SADY SULLIVAN: Cool. And how do you spell Ebling?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: E-B-L-I-N-G, Elsa Ebling. E-B-L-I-N-G. She's gone and dead now. They once wanted to name the school after her, but I don't think they ever did.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: P.S. 208 was the number of the school.

SADY SULLIVAN: That's great.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And it was a marvelous, marvelous place to work, absolutely fantastic.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. How long did you work there?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Oh, practically my entire career. I retired from there in 1984, I believe. And I started there in, well not in '55, somewhere in the '60s.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: I was hired because I had a -- a science background and I could teach the chemist -- well, not, uh, chemistry. I had to teach science.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And there weren't many people who were equipped to do elementary school science.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And I had a marvelous time in a beautifully equipped, uh, facility, because the school had once been an eighth grade school. And it had been -- They had taken away the seventh and eighth grade and -- and invented the junior high -- god help us -- the invention of the devil. Uh, but all the facilities were still there. So I had all this equipment to work with.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow. And, um. Oh, I'm sorry, my question slipped --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: It doesn't have anything to do with the Navy Yard, but --

SADY SULLIVAN: No, but it -- So -- Oh, I know -- That actually was my question. Did you ever talk to your students about --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Oh heavens --

SADY SULLIVAN: -- when you worked in the Navy Yard?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: -- I still keep in touch with them. I still keep in touch with them. They've gone on to wonderful, wonderful careers.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: I just got through with a letter from one of my boys who lives in Bangkok now. He's -- He's practicing law in Bangkok. And that intrigues me. I 30:00don't know whether he's practicing American law or -- or Bangkok law.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: I forgot to ask him.

SADY SULLIVAN: That's really neat.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And they're doing all kinds of wonderful things. One of my students, a black girl -- We eventually did have to integrate the class. You know, we went out of our way to find youngsters who could almost meet the -- meet the, uh, requirements. And one of my girls is now, uh, um -- I'll see if I can do this right. She does, uh, brain surgery, among other things. What the hell is it she's a specialist in--.?

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow. Neurosurgeon or -- ?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Neurosurgery, that's right. That's what she does, yeah, verbal aids.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And they're all over the place. They're doing all kinds of things. There's one youngster that's very involved with, with, uh, autistic children. Uh, there's a -- a girl that's in San Francisco now running a, a 31:00clinic for midwives. Very, very wonderful kids, absolutely fantastic.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow. And it's great --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And I still keep in touch with --

SADY SULLIVAN: -- that you still keep in touch.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: -- them.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: I still keep in touch with them, very much so, yes.

SADY SULLIVAN: That's so nice. That -- you must have been an inspiring teacher for them to be in touch with you.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Well, we did a lot of real wonderful things together.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: I didn't believe in staying in the classroom. I thought it was more interesting outside the classroom.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: But I believed in fieldtrips. I had 22 fieldtrips one year. My principal threatened to rent my room, 'cause I was never in it.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter] That sounds fun.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And if we had a fire drill, I never went back. I said to the kids, "Oh, c'mon. The fire must have burned the school down. Let's keep going." And we'd go off and do all kinds of things. I called it sidewalk teaching. And you'd find the most amazing things going on in the city streets.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, that's so fantastic.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: I remember once we met up with a paving crew that was spreading asphalt. And they talked to us for ages and taught us about the temperature and what they were putting in the machine and what came out, and how many pounds of pressure it used. What a math lesson we got.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah. Wow. And that's the kind of learning that really sticks with you.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: That's exactly the thing I love to do.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And I took perfectly -- And of course I had wonderful, wonderful parents. We lived way beyond the subway. And if a parent did agree to send their child to our school, they had to assume the responsibility of getting them there. No busing in those days, no lunch room. So the kids had to be, uh -- use public transportation, or the parents had to bring them. And sometimes the parents just stayed, and took them home at three o'clock. And they were wonderful parents, with all kinds of talent. And we made use of them.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: That's how we got -- That's how we got our typing program started.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow. A parent would teach it?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: She was the one who decided that the kids should learn typing. And she was so right. Usually their handwriting was awful. They might have been terribly gifted, but they didn't have manual coordination. Well, I remember one kid was so frustrated, he used to cry. So we taught them typing. And it was a parent who got the program started.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, that's great.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: But we're getting very far away from the Navy Yard, aren't we?

SADY SULLIVAN: We are. But it's such good -- It's so interesting. Um, and -- and it connects. But yes, you're right. We should come back to the Navy Yard. Um, I have some -- I have some detail questions. I think some of this --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Well I hope I can answer them.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yes. Um, you mentioned -- I think you mentioned before what building you were in. But do you know -- Do you remember what -- what building or area --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: I thought it was Building 291, but I don't know. It was right 34:00inside the gate. You just walked straight from the gate into this building. And it wasn't a very long walk by any manner of means.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. So that was the Sand Street gate?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Yes.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. And what did the building look like?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Well, it was more modern than many of the other buildings in the Navy Yard. It seemed to have a lot of, uh, what I would call stratification. The bottom of the six feet or something was stone. And then you had these windows that were, uh, glassed over with frosted glass. You wouldn't see in. You couldn't see out.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And then I don't know what was above it. Ahem, but it was a fairly modern building for the Navy Yard in those particular days.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. And what floor was the -- was your lab on --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: I believe I was on the second floor. I honestly don't know. I don't remember elevators. We must have used stairs.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Ahem, and we did put on uniforms. And we didn't bring anything 35:00in with us. You had to go through security at the gate. The Marines were there. Ahem, you could bring your lunch in if they opened up the -- you know, the box or the -- and inspected it. Anything that you brought with you, like once and awhile I had a suitcase, 'cause I was going away for the weekend -- ahem -- and you left that with the -- the Marines, and you picked it up on the way out.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh. And so why -- what -- what were they afraid of?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Oh, I guess that you bring in something you shouldn't or you take out something you shouldn't.

SADY SULLIVAN: Right.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: I remember the Marines had a great time with my suitcase once because I was -- Well, I was very sensitive about what was in it. And instead of saying underwear, I said, undies. And I remember their look: "What are undies? Let's open up and see." Oh, they had a marvelous time.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh no! [laughter] Um, and so what was -- You said that you wore a uniform. What did the uniform look like?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Well, it was a, a -- a rayon thing. You had to put it on and 36:00wrapped it around you. It was not a lab coat. It was not a lab coat. Uh, it was a wraparound thing.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. And did you -- So did you wear your street clothes underneath it?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Yes, usually.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Although once and awhile you spilled something, and you were sorry, because, you know, lot of acids and stuff, you ruined your street clothes.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh no.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: You know, once and awhile, that would happen.

SADY SULLIVAN: Um, and so did you have to wear protective, like, goggles and --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Yeah. Right. Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: And what about shoes?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And you weren't allowed to go out in that outfit, by the way. There were people who did leave the building at lunchtime. Don't ask me where they went.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: But, you know, the girls in particular would have to change back into their street clothes. You could -- You didn't take your uniform out with you.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Again, I think this was a protection against taking out contraband or bringing it in.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, and was there a -- a shop number or a union 37:00that -- that the lab was part of?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Not that I'm aware of, no.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm, um --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: I think it -- your grades were P for professional, SP for semi-professional. I was horrified. Mr. Potter, who was the head of the, uh, uh, lab, a very -- a very elderly gentleman, well past retirement age, I believe --

SADY SULLIVAN: Huh.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: -- he stayed on, uh, he was an SP6. And years later when I became acquainted with -- with, uh, grading in the, in the -- in the, uh, civil service, SP6 seemed like a minor, uh, salary grade. And this was a man who ran the whole chemical lab. And there were people who had, you know, in -- in the '60s and '70s, that we had -- I had friends in the -- in the, um, civil service, they were SPs 10 and 12. I -- Must have been a big change.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh. So why -- Um, why do you think he was staying on, even though 38:00he was age?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Oh, well, the shortage of workers, among other things. And I personally think he was passionately addicted to finding this synthetic, uh, formula for synthetic rubber.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And what was the goal? What was the synthetic rubber plan?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Well, there's two goals that you -- the original, uh, format for the chemistry lab was -- We were a testing facility, ahem, for the materials that they were bringing in and buying. Uh, and, uh, his personal -- A, again, this is my personal agenda. I think he was just bound and determined, and working very hard to see if we couldn't produce a synthetic rubber, which we needed desperately in those days.

SADY SULLIVAN: And what would it -- What was it needed for?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Oh, we -- Well remember, we didn't have any rubber in this -- in this country. You had to import it. Uh, and because of the shipping, you 39:00couldn't get it. Tires were desperately in need. And we didn't have the rubber to make them, much less insulation for electrical wire. Ahem, those were the things we were trying to produce where we were.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: It was a critical shortage of natural rubber.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And there used to be a joke. We'd say, "Well, if we found it, it would probably be made from sugar." And we were, ahem -- And we were just as short of sugar, by the way, as we were of natural rubber.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Ahem, it must be hard for you to realize these things.

SADY SULLIVAN: It is. It is, actually. I mean, I understand, but it's hard to -- it's hard to really get it, um, because, yeah, plastics and rubber are so plentiful now.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And we did lay the foundation for the plastic industry.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Um, and so how -- how did --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Oh, forgive me. I've got a coughing spell. I've got to get something to drink.

SADY SULLIVAN: Okay.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Hold on.

SADY SULLIVAN: Sure.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Don't ask me why if you drink it's supposed to cure a cough, but go ahead.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter] Are you okay?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Ahem, I'm talking too much. That's why I've got a cough.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yup. That does happen.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: I usually don't talk this much. I'm a -- I live alone.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Ahem, now, where were we?

SADY SULLIVAN: We were talking about rubber and synthetic rubber. And I wondered, how did -- So I -- I'm sort of afraid to say, but I don't know if now 41:00the rubber that exists, if it's synthetic or still from rubber trees.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Well, ahem, what, what -- what came out of this whole business, by the way, not because of the Navy, but because of private enterprise that were working on it faster than we were, and continued to work on it after the armistice, whereas the Navy just stopped dead -- you know? "Forget it. Let's not do it anymore, because we don't have to."

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: But private industry went ahead and developed the plastics that we have all over the place now.

SADY SULLIVAN: Ah.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And the two synthetic formulas that we were working on, one was called Buna S and one was called Buna 9 -- uh, Buna N, excuse me. And one of it was the soft pliable plastic that we're using. And the other stuff is the -- well, the first commercial use of it I thought was Bakelite, the tough plastics, the hard plastics.

SADY SULLIVAN: Right. So that was dir -- So that -- what the commercial 42:00industries came up with was --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: That's what they came with. And, 'course, we're living with synthetic -- with plastics now overwhelmingly.

SADY SULLIVAN: Right. Right.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Where we used to use rubber, we now use plastics.

SADY SULLIVAN: Right.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And Mr. Potter, again, this is a personal thing, I think his heart was broken at the end of the war, because the Navy completely dropped the program and said, "Well, we don't have to be bothered with that anymore."

SADY SULLIVAN: Right.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Whereas private industry went on and changed the world.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And as I remember it, the last days of the war, the armistice, uh, there were only three men left in the -- in the chemistry lab. And they were all non -- shall we say, nonserviceable. Um, Mr. Potter of course, by his age, never would have been considered.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And, uh, I can't remember the name of the other two. But one of them was handicapped. He walked with a slight limp. And I remember he -- He gave 43:00up wherever it was he lived and moved into the YMCA in order to be near the lab. And he used to say, "Well, it's, uh -- The YMCA, they're not -- the men there are not young. They're not Christian. And they don't associate."

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And then there was another fellow. He was very, kind of emaciated. I think he had a -- a spinal problem or something like that. And, uh, the two of them worked like beavers. They never seemed to go home. They were always plugging away, the dedicated guys.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: And so the other people, the other men who were working in the Navy Yard, why were they --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: God knows where they went.

SADY SULLIVAN: Ah. But do you know why they were -- What were the main reasons why they were not overseas?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Uh, say that again.

SADY SULLIVAN: Um, the other men who were working in the Navy Yard, why weren't they drafted?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: The only three I remember just weren't draft-able.

SADY SULLIVAN: Right. Right.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And I can only remember one name, Mr. Potter. I was hoping that, uh, Edna would remember their names. But I don't think I asked her the question, or she didn't remember, one or the other.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: I'm gonna go visit her as soon as it gets cool in Texas.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, that's great. So where in Texas does she live?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: She lives in a little community known as Schulenberg. Needless to say, it's heavily German.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And her name is Schultz. So I think that's why they arrived there.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. And, um -- And where in California are you?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: I'm in what they call Sand Key, which the English would call a bedroom borough. We're a, a -- a satellite of San Diego.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: This is where people sleep and go to work in San Diego.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Uh, so back to the Navy Yard, some other sort of detail questions --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Okay.

SADY SULLIVAN: -- um, what did you do for lunch? You said you brought lunch down--

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Oh, I had to bring lunch of course.

SADY SULLIVAN:Um, was there a place that everybody would eat together?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: No. I think we just kind of found a corner in the lab and ate our lunch there.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: I don't know whether that's accurate or not, but that's what I used to do.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Um, and so you're --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: I know I used to use the ovens and bake Ballard biscuits. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: The ovens were made for burning off the mineral matters. The temperatures were in the thousands! But I used to put a -- a batch of Ballard's biscuits in and bake them for lunch.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter] That's great.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: I don't know how I did it, come to think of it. I certainly -- They, they would have been charcoal if I, you know, left them in too long.

SADY SULLIVAN: Um, and so you already described that it was mostly -- you know, by the end of the war, it was mostly women. What about the racial and cultural mix of your coworkers?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: I haven't been in touch with any of them, except Edna, and of 46:00course Margaret has died in the meantime.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Margaret Lockwood. Now she was from Virginia --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: -- and her husband was a commander at the time, or a captain. I don't even know which one is which. And he came up from Virginia and was assigned to the Navy Yard, brought his wife with him. And, uh, she went to work in the Navy Yard, too.

SADY SULLIVAN: Ah.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: It was one way of staying together.

SADY SULLIVAN: Right.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Otherwise, I don't think she'd have laid eyes on him with the kind of hours he kept.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: They had an apartment in Greenwich Village, and, uh -- on Grove -- 45 Grove Street. Ahem, and she turned that apartment over to me and my husband when we were first married.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, that's so nice.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Or we wouldn't have been married, because we couldn't find a place to live.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Um, how did you meet your husband?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Well I knew him before the war, but he came home after the war. 47:00And we -- We got married.

SADY SULLIVAN: Was he from your neighborhood?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Oh, no. No, no. He was from Borough Park. And I lived in East Flatbush. And he didn't have a car. And I was always amazed that he found his way to where I was. We had to use public transportation.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: I didn't tell him where I lived. I just let him to figure it out for himself. And he did, which was big -- so, you know, a big surprise to me.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: I didn't think I'd ever lay eyes on him again, but I did.

SADY SULLIVAN: And then when were you married?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: We were married in October of 1945.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, so right -- uh, also after the war ended.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Right.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Which is why I left the Navy Yard.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And is that when you -- Did you move right into, um --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: No.

SADY SULLIVAN: -- into that apartment --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: We did -- We did move into -- into the apartment on 45 Grove Street.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: We were filling out her lease. And when we -- Ahem, and when 48:00that lease came to an end, they wouldn't renew it. So we packed up and left New York and went to live in Springfield, Ohio.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: By accident. We didn't plan on it. It just happened.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Um.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: We had a car at that particular time and we went off, uh, for a belated honeymoon, and wound up visiting his brother in -- in -- Oh, he was in the Nav -- in the Army -- right? -- in Dayton, Ohio. And we went to see him. And he was A-W-O-L, by the way. So we hung around until he got back. And before he got back, we had an apartment and a job. [laughter] We each had jobs in Springfield, Ohio. And we had an apartment. So we stayed.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. But then you came back to Brooklyn.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: We did, two years later. We moved back to New York, which might have been a mistake. I'm not sure about that, ahem.

SADY SULLIVAN: Why do you say that?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Someone speaking to you?

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, no. That's just in the background.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Oh.

SADY SULLIVAN: Um, why did you say that that might have been a mistake?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Well, we had kicked the habit, shall we say. We left New York. We were living in -- in rural America. And it was a -- It was so -- It was a hundred percent American.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And, uh -- But my husband missed his friends and missed New York. And so back we came.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And we adapted to it, I remember, we eventually bought ourselves a fantastic house in Flatbush, one of those big old Victorians that nobody wanted.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: It was too big. Nobody wanted it. So. Fourteen rooms, thank you.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And we moved in, enjoyed every minute of it.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: But we never did get through cleaning it or painting it or anything like that.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: 'Cause when -- It was like the Brooklyn Bridge; as soon as you're finished, you could start again.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter] And you -- I know that you have a daughter. Do you have other kids?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: I have two children.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Uh, one daughter lives in Massachusetts.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And the other one is out here in California, which is how I wound up here.

SADY SULLIVAN: Ah. So when did you -- When did you leave Brooklyn?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: When we -- When I retired.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. And you went --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Nineteen forty -- forty -- 1984. '84.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. And that's when you went to California?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Yes.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And I came out here kicking and screaming against my will. I didn't want to live in this cultural desert.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter] And have you -- Have you adapted? How is it?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Well, I finally discovered it was a place worth living, not because of the weather, which everybody thinks is ideal out here --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: -- but because I discovered you could drive a car and park it anyplace. Oh, was that a great experiment. Oh, what a joy that was. 'Cause you couldn't do it in New York, of course.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Many a time when you're off with the kids on a Sunday to go to 51:00the museums in New York, couldn't find a parking space. He'd let the girls and I out on -- He'd go home with the car and I'd go home on the subway later.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, yeah.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Yeah. Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: You're -- you're -- If you're a pedestrian in New York, you do very well. If you're a motorist in New York, it's suffering.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. That's true.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Yeah. And it's not so here in Cali -- Well, it is now a little bit, but nothing like New York.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, so is -- I -- Just to clarify, I realize I didn't at the beginning of the interview, which is your -- which is your maiden name and which is your married name?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Oh, my maiden name was Sullivan.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: My married name is Gagliardi, G-A-G-L-I-A-R-D-I.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. So you have your mother's last name as your maiden name. Is that --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Yes.

SADY SULLIVAN: -- correct --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Well, she and my hus -- my -- my father were separated -- I -- eventually. I think he may have divorced her. But I don't think she ever acknowledged that. But she did change her name back to Sullivan, including the children. I think she did it -- Well, she said she did it because she was a nurse. And she couldn't be employed in the '30s, because she was married. They wouldn't accept her. And so she used her maiden name, and would be employed.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And then eventually, I think she changed us back, kind of to get even with my father, you know, or to punish him in some way.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Wow. So that -- That's really interesting. So she, um --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: She was a single wo -- Well, she wasn't a single woman, but she had to be a -- a -- a single mother, supporting two children.

SADY SULLIVAN: Right. Right. And the -- Even that -- given that situation, they wouldn't hire her if they thought she was married?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: No, no. No, no. Oh, things were so tight during the Depression, 53:00my god.

SADY SULLIVAN:Right, wow.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: They certainly wouldn't hire a married woman in preference to a single one.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And she didn't qualify as a widow. You know?

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: So I'm very proud of my grandmother and I'm proud of my mother, for the reason that they -- The two of them had to take over the responsibilities for raising a family without the help of a -- a husband or father.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah, in -- in times when that -- I mean it's still hard --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And in very difficult times, too.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah. Yeah.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: My grandmother survived alone, nine children, thank you.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And she somehow got them all raised. And some of them got an education, and -- you know?

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And she did it on her own two feet.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And my mother, to a certain extent, did the same thing.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Although there were only two of us.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: But she also saw that we were both educated properly. And, uh, I'm not sure she did that the best way. She assumed we all had to have a Catholic education. And there wasn't a school in my parish when I was growing up. So my brother had to go to boarding school, no less.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And, uh, when I got to be high school age, you could travel. I was sent to a Catholic school.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh. So what high school did you go to?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: St. Brendan's.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, where's that?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: It was at Avenue O and East 13th Street. I had to take a trolley car and a bus to get there.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Seven cents car fare, thank you, five cents on the trolley and two cents transfer on the bus.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And she gave me a quarter every day. No, I think it was fifty cents. It was 12 cents -- My car fare was 12 cents, and I would buy a lunch. You'd get a sandwich for ten or fifteen cents in those days.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Five cents for a devil dog and five cents for milk. And I think I had seven cents left over.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Which I accumulated, and I could go to the movies on Saturday afternoon.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. That's great.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: And is (overlapping dialogue) --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Well --

SADY SULLIVAN: Is that how -- How did you meet your husband? Did you meet him in the high school?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: No, no. I was in college at the time.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Oh, this is part of the -- Ahem, uh, I was dating an Englishman at the time. He was from Australia, no less. And I think my mother was afraid that I would marry him and go off to Australia.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: So she got my aunt to -- to arrange a date with -- with the man who became my husband.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Yeah. She needn't have worried. I had no intention of marrying Sid Phillips. But I mention his name, because Sid Phillips, whenever we went out, we went to the Savoy Plaza. And I thought, well, that was a pretty fancy 56:00place to go.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: But the reason we went there is because the -- the glassware was all, uh, initialed, S.P., Savoy Plaza. And we had to bring out a glass every time we went. So I think he went back to Australia with a full set of glasses, monogrammed, S.P.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughing] That's really funny.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Well. I've often thought about that.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah. [laughter]

HELEN GAGLIARDI: But my mother, I think, was afraid that I was gonna marry him and go to Australia.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: I had no intention of it.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: So that's that story.

SADY SULLIVAN: Um, so was your -- When you had kids, was your mom around? Were, were--

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Yes. Yes, she lived to be ninety-three.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And, uh, my two daughters called her Nana Helen --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: -- and called my father -- her -- their father's mother Nana Lucy.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: That's the way we solved that problem. And I objected very much to the fact that Nana Lucy had so much control over my daughters. Uh, ahem, eventually, we were living in -- Well, they had a house, very much like the one that I had, a thirteen-, fourteen-room house, which my father-in-law was nice enough to convert into individual departments -- apartments, rather, as his children married. And at one point, we lived in the third floor, which was three rooms, and the biggest closets you ever did see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And my mother-in-law lived downstairs. And when I would call my children in for dinner, they would say, uh, "What are we having?" And if they didn't like it, they said, "No, we'll eat with Nana Lucy."

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

HELEN GAGLIARDI: So I objected to the fact that she had so much control over my children.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: But now I look back at it as a very favorable, possible, prof -- uh, profitable thing. If there was a problem, they went to her. They didn't 58:00go to me.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: They were never alone. I went to work eventually.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And there was no such thing as a child with a latchkey. They came home. Their grandmother was available to them, and two aunts.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And they always had someone in the house.

SADY SULLIVAN: That's great.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And the house was never locked. I mean, you can always come and go any time of day. So when we bought a house of our own, we were in trouble. We were not in the habit of carrying a key. We used to lock ourselves out all the time. We'd come home to an empty house. How do you get in? Those things didn't happen when we were living, you know, with my -- my father-in-law's family.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: We had our own apartment, but we were part of an extended family.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And it was a good thing for my daughters, it really was. Although I regretted it and objected to it very much so.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: You don't have much discipline when they can always go to grandma.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: But it's a good thing they can go to grandma.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: They're never abandoned. They're never alone. There was no such thing as a child coming home, sick from school, that there wasn't somebody to look after them.

SADY SULLIVAN: Right.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And nobody had to call me at my job and say, "C'mon over. Your daughter -- Your daughter is home ill."

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And I saw that happen with many another teacher. You know?

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: But we're getting away from the Navy Yard.

SADY SULLIVAN: We are. But these are -- I -- I love these other details. But you're right. So thinking about the Navy Yard again, um, what about -- what about the, the physical sensations of the lab, the sights, smells, sounds?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: I'm missing that. Say that again, please.

SADY SULLIVAN: Um, can you describe the -- the physical sensation of the lab, the sights and sounds and smells of being there?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Oh dear, the smells were really exotic, [laughter] especially when they -- they were spewing up a new batch of rubber. Uh, it was lots of 60:00clinical stuff, I mean, lots of, uh, Bunsen burners and test tubes and, uh, little crucibles and Petri dishes and -- Any lab that you've ever been in, in school, would would resemble the Navy lab, to a certain extent, except there was quantity there. Uh, the ovens were -- uh, where we burned the mineral matters were, uh -- might be three or four of them rather than just one. And the crucibles, there might be a couple a hundred of them instead of ten. Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: It was mult -- multiples. And there were individual labs. I was just in the chemistry lab. God knows what was going on in the rest of the building.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh. So there was lots of labs that were --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Oh yes. There were def -- definitely more than the chemical lab.

SADY SULLIVAN: I see. And so the -- Were you in a specific -- Was there another chemical lab that was doing something --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: No. No, no. It was -- I was in the only chemical lab, but --

SADY SULLIVAN: I see.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: -- there were multiple parts of it.

SADY SULLIVAN:I see.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And I'm not sure what they look like, to tell you the truth, at this stage of the game.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. So would there be interactions with the other people working on different projects?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Uh, probably, but I don't know a darn thing about them.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: I don't think there was a biology lab. I'm sure of that.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Um, what was your best experience, uh, when you were working at the Navy Yard?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: My best experience?

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Well, probably had nothing to do with the Navy. Well, it did. Uh, ahem, there were, uh -- The ships that were brought in for repairs, if they were American ships, usually the crew was dispersed. They were sent off, I don't know, to another base or wherever they went. But the British ships came in. And 62:00while the officers would be dismissed from the ships, they took up residence at a hotel in New York. Ahem, I think it was the Barbizon Plaza, if I'm not mistaken. No, that's a woman's hotel. Uh, the crew would be left aboard ship, under rather difficult circumstances, by the way. You know, here you are with a ship that's in badly -- in bad need of repairs, and all kinds of repairs are going on. And guys are trying to live there and have meals and get the laundry done.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: But, ahem -- but it was a marvelous place to be a single female in those days, because the dating opportunities were unlimited.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And New York was -- was devoid of eligible men. There was a song. They were either too young or too old. And believe me, that was the case.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, right, I hadn't even thought of that --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: But here you were with a whole flock of -- of eligible, uh, seamen.

SADY SULLIVAN: Right.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And, uh, ahem, they -- Of course you were always being 63:00petitioned for dates. I couldn't do very much about it since I was working and had to go to school at night.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: But some of them would turn up after school was -- at nine o'clock at night, ready to go out. I could remember saying, "Oh, no." And, and there weren't many girls in New York would say that, by the way. I mean, if you went into a restaurant, or anything, it was overwhelmingly female, very, very few men around.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, yeah.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: So there was -- Here you were, surrounded by eligible dates.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And that was an interesting situation.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: But, uh, I couldn't take advantage of it because of -- I went to school.

SADY SULLIVAN: Right.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: But I did get out early because of it. I mean, I was allowed to leave, I think at 4:00 or 5:00. And I would go over to Brooklyn College and take my classes. And I'd be through at 9:00. And sometimes somebody'd be waiting for me. And I'd say, "Oh, no." Who wanted to go out at that time? I wanted to go home.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Because what time did you have to start at the Navy Yard in the morning?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: They used to start at 6:00.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, wow.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Yeah. And many a time, I did, but, you know, if I was between classes or something, I kept more regular hours. I think I started at 8:00, if I'm not mistaken.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And I left at 5:00 or 4:00. I had a very relaxed, uh, shift compared with others.

SADY SULLIVAN: Right. Um, so what was a typical date at that time, with --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Oh, you'd go to New York, well, as I said, you went to the Savoy Plaza if you went with Sid Phillips.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: You'd probably go to one of the places where you could, uh, dance, maybe, uh, dine. Because we were all on ration coupons. So eating at home was sometimes very limited. Whereas in the restaurants, you could order meat or anything, and -- and you'd be served --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: -- without ration coupons.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: So going out to dinner or for a meal was definitely a -- an option.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. And did you usually hang out in -- in Manhattan or in Brooklyn?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Yes. Well, the Barbizon Plaza was one place I used to hang out. And the Astor Hotel in New York was another one.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: But that was in my high school days, long before I went to, uh, work at the Navy Yard.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: I, when I went to high school, the school had a box at the Metropolitan Opera on Saturdays. And every student was expected to attend the Metropolitan Opera in the -- uh, for the matinee. That would be the Saturday matinee of course. Well, if it was a -- a, ahem -- Everyone was supposed to go. Depending upon the opera, there were plenty that didn't want to go. Uh, and I would gladly take their tickets and go in their place, even if it was Wagner, believe it or not.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: But this is when the Metropolitan Opera was at 39th Street, not where it is now at Lincoln Center.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And it was in a very small building. They had outgrown it. And 66:00the scenery used to have to wait out on the sidewalk, uh, to be changed. And you'd see the guys in costume, uh, running across the street in the snow, because the co -- the dressing rooms were in buildings across the street. They had outgrown the, uh -- I can remember seeing palm trees and -- and, uh, pyramids in the snowstorm on 39th Street, because we would go to the matinee, ahem. And the scenery would be, be, be waiting for the evening performance.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Now, where did teenagers like to hang out? At soda fountains, of course.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Were there any soda fountains in Times Square? Don't be ridiculous. They didn't have any. So we would go to the Astor. And, uh, well, waiting for your friends under the clock at the Astor was a very, uh, established tradition.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, neat.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And if you got through with that, you'd go and sit down in the cocktail lounge and be served. And I didn't know I was a juvenile delinquent 67:00until years later when they told -- when they begin lamenting the fact that teenagers were, you know, going to bars and doing things like that. Well, it was the Sisters of St. Joseph that made me do it.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter] How do you mean? Did they give you the idea?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: They -- No. They gave me the tickets for the Metropolitan Opera.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And when it was over, where did you go?

SADY SULLIVAN: Right. Right.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Thir -- You were at 39th Street, so you went to Times Square.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yup.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And where did you go? You went into the Astor. And you might sit down in the cock, cocktail lounge and be served. Nobody ever questioned it in those days.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: I remember, I -- I don't know how old I was, but somebody was talking about the terrible situation of these teenage girls that did these -- And I said, "My god, that's me." I was a juvenile delinquent, and I didn't know it, ahem. And how did I get that way? The Sisters of St. Joseph.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

HELEN GAGLIARDI: They gave me the opportunity.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yup.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Oh, well. That's enough. But that's where you hung out because there -- There's no soda fountains in Times Square.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Well, maybe there is now, but there certainly wasn't in those days.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: But there were plenty of cocktail lounges.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And I can remember a, a frozen daiquiri was what we ordered all the time, because it looked like a confection.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, yeah. But it would -- They would give it to you with alcohol?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: It was an alcoholic drink.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, wow.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: But in those days, nobody questioned it.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Well, maybe they did, but they never said anything to us.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: So we'd sit down and wait for our friends to show up.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Okay. Is that it?

SADY SULLIVAN: Is that it for the interview you mean?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Yeah. I don't know. We're going further?

SADY SULLIVAN:Uh, well, I have just a couple more questions. I know we -- we've been -- we have been talking for a while--

HELEN GAGLIARDI: We definitely do not limit ourselves to the Navy Yard.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah, that's fine, though. This has been great. Um, I guess I just have one more question about the Navy Yard, um, which is, was there anything -- Was there any bad experiences that you had there?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Not a one --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: -- not a single solitary one.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: I just came in the door and went back out the door, and that was the end of that. But truthfully, I did not investigate the neighborhood or anything like that.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: I don't -- I don't think I walked ten -- ten steps from the bus to the gate.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Um, was there -- Were you aware that -- I mean, was it -- Was it a surprising job for a woman to have?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Was it what?

SADY SULLIVAN: Was it a -- Was it a surprising job for a woman to have --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Yes.

SADY SULLIVAN:-- at the Navy Yard --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Although it was becoming more and more common as the war -- as the war went on.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: There were more and more women doing the -- the -- the typical 70:00things. But before that, if you were a girl, you had a clerical job. That was about the only thing you could do.

SADY SULLIVAN: Right. And so --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And I remember, I had a summer job -- Well, I had a couple of summer jobs in high school. I remember one at Oppenheim Collins. And I had another one, oh, I worked for American Cyanamid on the 60th floor of the RCA Building.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Now, I took that job because American Cyanamid was a chemical company. And I thought it would look good on my resume one day if I, you know -- Of course it had, had nothing whatsoever to do with chemicals. I filed bills, if I'm not mistaken.

SADY SULLIVAN: Right.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And -- but I did enjoy working on the 60th floor of the RCA Building.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: I had a friend who was on the 40th floor. And sometimes she'd say, "Are we going out to lunch?" And I'd say, "Yes." She'd say, "Bring an umbrella. It's raining down here."

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Which was true! I didn't -- you didn't see the rain up on the 60th floor.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, right.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: You just saw the clouds down below. And the only thing you saw out the window was the Empire State Building down on 32nd Street.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, neat.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Ahem, and, uh, so I worked for American Cyanamid on the 60th Floor. And I thought of that as a chemical job.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Well, it wasn't. But it looked good on my resume.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, well, I think that that's all my questions about the Navy Yard.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: [laughter] Well, we've certainly gotten far, far, far away from the, uh --

SADY SULLIVAN: Yes, but I'm glad we did. It's really great -- um, really great things to talk about. So thank you very much.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Well, I had some marvelous times with the children in my class. They were absolute gems, wonderful to teach.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And one of the things I did with them every year, if I could get a bus, by the way, which was hard to do -- I mean, we didn't pay for the bus. You got a free bus.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Uh, this is when they had to start busing children all over the city.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm?

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Uh, ahem, we would take a tour of the Dutch farmhouses that 72:00were still, um, uh, standing in Brooklyn.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And we did a great deal of research on the Dutch families. We knew the names of the people that lived there and where they came from, and so on. We did plays about them. We painted murals about them. And, uh, well, we did a lot of things that we -- I thoroughly enjoyed.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Which is one reason why I wanted to talk to your people who do the -- the bus trips, to see if, ahem, they would be interested in doing anything about the Dutch farmhouses, ahem.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah. I don't know if they do. And I will definitely tell Cindy that.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Well --

SADY SULLIVAN: And get -- get your --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: -- there were four of them that were being lived in when I left in the -- uh, twenty-five years ago. I don't know what's happened to them in the meantime.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And the churches were still there. And of course there was a building in the middle of -- of, uh, Erasmus High School that went back to the 1700s, that was a -- uh -- It was a school.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, I didn't know that --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Erasmus High School of course dates back to the days when the Dutch were in Brooklyn. And they operated their own school system.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, wow.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: And the building was right there -- there in the middle of Erasmus High School.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh neat. I didn't know that.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: I, well, it was still there when I left. I don't know if it's still there.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Those miserable kids could have torn it down by now.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: So you might pass that on to the people who -- I'd love to talk to them about the potential.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Okay. You and I have rambled all over the place.

SADY SULLIVAN: We have. It's been very good. Thank you. Um, I just wanted to let you know that I'm going to be -- So in order to put this in our archives and the archive of the Brooklyn Navy Yard, uh, there's a --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: [laughter] There's gonna be a lot of extraneous material there.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh no. Well, that's -- that's great. That's actually a good thing. Um, but we do need to have a -- a release form. So I'm gonna put that in 74:00the mail to you with a copy of this interview for your collection. Um, and so let me know when you read it. It's a very, you know, legal language kind of thing but it's --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Oh dear. I just hope I'm not signing -- I just hope many of the things that I'm saying to you are not, uh, pure fiction. I honestly do not remember --

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, that's --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: -- all the details --

SADY SULLIVAN: No, no, no. Don't be worried about that. Um, that's -- that's totally what oral history is, is, all about, is, you know, people's memories and impressions. And we understand that --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Well --

SADY SULLIVAN:-- that, you know --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: I'm not sure they're accurate. After sixty-five years, I'm a little vague.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah, that's okay. That's totally fine. Um, but when you get the -- So I'll -- I'll send that out to you probably tomorrow. And, um, if you have any questions, just give me a call, because it is -- you know, it sounds very formal --

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Okay.

SADY SULLIVAN:-- and legal and -- We can make changes and -- and do whatever you want. So, um, you know, just ask if you have any concerns about the release form. And, um, then when -- when we have it so that you like it, you can sign it 75:00and mail it back. And then, um -- Then we will archive everything.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Okay. Well, it was pleasant chatting with you. I didn't know we were gonna be on it for this long.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh yeah, well, it's been great. Thank you so much.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Well, bye for awhile, or maybe goodbye permanently. I don't know. [laughter] So long.

SADY SULLIVAN: All right. Bye-bye.

HELEN GAGLIARDI: Bye.