Mary Hogan and Anne Hannigan

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Ahem.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: What's her name?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Um, uh, Kaitlyn.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Katie?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Kaitlyn. Kaitlyn.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Kaitlyn. Uh, whose baby?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Karen's.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Karen? Oh. On the Missouri, I figured out the force and everything else.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: But when -- when were you a welder --

SADY SULLIVAN: Hi, I'm Sady Sullivan --

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Coffee?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: I was a welder when I first went in.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, yes please. Thank you so much.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER-: Right. Where? Do you remember where? Like -- what --

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah, in building four, because that was the welding --

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Oh, building four?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: That was the welding building?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Coffee?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Oh, thank you, sweetheart.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Let's see -- I wonder if -- do you want to stand up just for a minute?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Hold onto me, I got you.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: We came home yesterday --

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Oh. Oh, can I have milk?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah, I'm going to bring milk.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: You were on the ferry yesterday?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Oh no, Saturday.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Whoop whoop woo woo! Okay.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Ah, my niece. [laughter] I love her.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I love you too. I'm gonna bring you milk, right there.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Uh-huh.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: And I'm bringing your coffee too.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Oh my god! So you went the first Saturday?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Oh Ruth-Anne!

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Exactly. Hi Aunt Mary.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I wonder if they ran the ferry yesterday at some point.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Here's your coffee.

JENNIFER EGAN: Oh, thank you so much.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Then there's milk. Do you like sugar or Sweet'n'Low?

JENNIFER EGAN: Oh no thanks --

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Okay

JENNIFER EGAN: -- I'm allergic. Just milk.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: And then, you want milk in there? You want milk?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: So how was Maine? Where in Maine did you go?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Can you pass me -- can you pass me a milk?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah. Do you like skim or regular milk?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: She uses regular.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Okay. That's regular.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: It's fine.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Cool.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: She uses whatever I have in the house.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: I can't tell the difference --

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Do you like Sweet'n'Low in there?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I'm like my mother-in-law, who yells at me and yells me. "I don't like the milk, I don't like the milk."

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Do you want sugar or something?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: That's not me.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Do you want sugar?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: I'm not the mother-in-law who does that.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Or you just want milk. You just want milk?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Just milk. Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Oh, sure. Sure.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: We need a little tissue for you.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Tissue?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: We need a little tissue for you. You're dripping.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Okay. You know what?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: A napkin, just a little paper napkin. And the chair. bring the chair in.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Oh, here you go. Oh, you used it.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Welcome to the family. [laughter] And this is calm. This is nothing. The two ringleaders aren't here.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Maureen --

JENNIFER EGAN: Who are the ringleaders?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I have [inaudible] on.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Oh, ah, Kathleen and Betty-Anne.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Oh my girlfriend gave me this, [inaudible]

JENNIFER EGAN: And are they sisters of, uh, Maureen?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Maureen, Sheila -- four girls.

JENNIFER EGAN: Oh, my goodness.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Kathleen, Maureen, Sheila, and Betty-Anne.

JENNIFER EGAN: Oh, I see. And --

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: No boys.

JENNIFER EGAN: -- you all live nearby each other now?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Kathleen's in Brooklyn and Betty-Anne's in Chicago.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Why's she still around Chicago?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Chicago. Chicago area, yes. And Kathleen's in Brooklyn.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: If anybody needs anything, [inaudible] is going to help get things in and out, okay?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Cold drinks or anything like that?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I think you should [inaudible].

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I think I'm done. [laughter]

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Enough with the cane. [laughter]

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah, yeah, gotta put the cane away.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Oh!

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Okay, [inaudible].

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Does [inaudible] want anything else? He looks [inaudible].

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: He's going to drink a bottle.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: You can give the baby a bottle if you want.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Are we hungry? Are we hungry? No, it doesn't look like we're hungry.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: [Inaudible] North Wood, uh, Norway Road, [inaudible] Pond?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Was it beautiful?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I was supposed to go to Tobago Lake, and then [inaudible].

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: We camped in Maine two weeks ago, he went swimming with his cell phone.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Aw.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: But he fixed it though, took it apart, but it in the oven for an hour. Next day, put it in the oven for another hour, and then put it back together. And it works fine.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: What's this?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Kyle's cell phone.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Oh.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Well, he's the engineer major. So he figured he should be able to fix it.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Okay, let me just get, um, let me just get --

JENNIFER EGAN: It got wet?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: He went swimming for forty-five minutes with it in his pocket.

JENNIFER EGAN: And he fixed it?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: And he fixed it.

JENNIFER EGAN: Wow. I feel like I spill a cup of water on mine and it's dead.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Well, he fixed it.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: You okay?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Huh?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: You okay?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah

UNIDENTIFED SPEAKER: Maureen. Your number is [number redacted for privacy]?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Whatever number she used just now.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah, she just called here

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Okay. Now let me just get a paper and pencil, just -- I have to copy a fax number down.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Is your mother getting one or do you want me to get you one?

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, I have a pen.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I have plenty. Oh.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Here you go.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Sure.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Thank you. So how's work?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Good.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I worked this weekend. I'm gonna tell them about [inaudible].

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: All right, she's going to give me a fax number, so now I'm on hold.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: I never thought I'd be called for this.

JENNIFER EGAN: Why not?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Um, well. That's so far away.

JENNIFER EGAN: Yeah. But we're still interested.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: I graduated from, uh, high school, I went right into the Navy Yard.

JENNIFER EGAN: Really?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah.

JENNIFER EGAN: Wow.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Because the war was on.

JENNIFER EGAN: Right. We are very interested, even though it was a long time ago.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yes.

JENNIFER EGAN: So we're ready to start anytime, whenever we reach a point where people are kind of settled. Because it's --

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: We don't want to interrupt you while you've got the microphone.

JENNIFER EGAN: When, when -- once we are rolling, it's -- people can jump in if they have a comment or question, but we should -- everyone should identify themselves ahead of time on the tape, and should probably do so when they jump in, right?

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah, that would be helpful, but we'll go, so should we -- can we -- should we start right now? Are we ready to start?

JENNIFER EGAN: I'm ready.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: I've got some.

JENNIFER EGAN: Is everyone else ready?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: You ready, Ma?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yes. Mom. [laughter]

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Can I ask you one question?

JENNIFER EGAN: Sure!

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: If you're asking me to introduce myself, [inaudible]?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Barbara's here.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: They're all so young.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah, say both.

JENNIFER EGAN: Yeah. We'll do that in every case, sure.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Barbara, there's a chair back there, you can move it.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Barbara is Anne's daughter, another daughter.

SADY SULLIVAN: Okay.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Oh thank you.

JENNIFER EGAN: Do you want me to move --?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: No, no

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: You can put the chair right over here. Go around that way, and the chair is on the side over there, pull it over, and you're set.

SADY SULLIVAN: So I'll just slate -- slate the date. It is July 28th, 2008. We are here in Ronkonkoma, New York. I am Sady Sullivan with the Brooklyn Historical Society.

JENNIFER EGAN: And I'm Jennifer Egan, um, and we are sitting with -- and if you could both tell me your full names and your maiden names, that would be great.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Mary Frances Patricia Hannigan Hogan, and that's it. [laughter]

JENNIFER EGAN: So that is your full present name.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah.

JENNIFER EGAN: And what was your name at the time that you worked at the Brooklyn Navy Yard?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Uh, Mary Hannigan Hogan.

JENNIFER EGAN: Okay. And what is your date of birth?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Uh, [date redacted for privacy]-23.

JENNIFER EGAN: Got it. Okay. Sorry. I thought that was correction of the 24.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: No, no, no. I'm sorry.

JENNIFER EGAN: Okay. And, and could you give us your full name now, then, and your birth date as well please?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Uh, Anne Mastrion Hannigan. I was Anne Mastrion.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm.

SADY SULLIVAN: Could you spell that, please?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Um, Mastrion? M as in Mary-A-S-T-R-I-O-N.

JENNIFER EGAN: Okay.

SADY SULLIVAN: And actually, you can -- you can sit back where you're comfortable.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Oh. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: These are -- yeah, these are really sensitive, so yeah, you're fine there.

JENNIFER EGAN: You can relax. And, um, Anne, what is your date of birth?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: [date redacted for privacy]-22. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah, you don't have to --

JENNIFER EGAN: [laughter] And just so I -- I want to make sure I'm spelling Hannigan correctly --

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: H-A-N-N-I-G-A-N.

JENNIFER EGAN: Okay. Great. And could you both tell us a little bit about your family life at that time and how you came to work at the Brooklyn Navy Yard. Would you like to go first, Mary?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Um, well, as I've said before, um, the minute I graduated from high school, I went right into the Navy Yard. And I went in as a welder.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Uh, but --

JENNIFER EGAN: Were you -- I'm sorry, go on.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: -- I didn't, uh, weld very long. I became a, uh, oh what do you call them -- I don't know -- ah, oh, I figured out the ex -- um, expenses for different things, there were turrets and different things that went on the ship. And I worked on the, uh, Missouri --

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: -- and that was the one that was signed with all the peace [inaudible].

JENNIFER EGAN: What -- what year did you begin working at the Navy Yard?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: In 1938.

JENNIFER EGAN: And how long were you there?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Uh, uh, six years. Uh, but I left because, uh, I wanted to get back into the regular business and everything else, you know, before the big crowds started in.

JENNIFER EGAN: Okay. And were you -- where were you living at that time?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Uh... oh, I should bring Nana's picture. She's sitting on the stoop. [laughter]

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: 415 Fifth Street.

JENNIFER EGAN: In Brooklyn?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Park Slope.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Brooklyn. 413.

JENNIFER EGAN: Okay. And who -- who were you living with?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Uh, my mother, uh, once in a while my father. And, uh, uh -- that was it. Or, no, my sister and brother, I have pictures of them, you know

JENNIFER EGAN: So there were three of the children were living at home.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: There were six of us.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: And, um, Tommy and Johnny went into the service, you know -- when did John go in? [laughter]

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: He went in, in, uh, I guess '43, '42.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah. Yeah.

JENNIFER EGAN: Okay. So you were living at home with your mother, sometimes your father --

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah.

JENNIFER EGAN: -- a sister and a brother. Okay.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Uh, no. Uh -- Peggy and, uh, Catherine were living in the house with us. It was a brownstone house, you know.

JENNIFER EGAN: Okay. Um --

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Catherine was their mother.

DEBBIE HOGAN RUSS: Ma, I think -- I think the date -- uh, I guess I should say my name?

JENNIFER EGAN: Yes.

DEBBIE HOGAN RUSS: Debbie. Debbie Hogan Russ. I think 1938's too early.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: No, I graduated from school.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yeah. Ahem.

DEBBIE HOGAN RUSS: In 1938?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: I went in '43, 1943.

DEBBIE HOGAN RUSS: Because you would have been fifteen, right?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Uh, would you, uh -- I don't think you were there eight years.

DEBBIE HOGAN RUSS: Yeah

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: In 1938 --

DEBBIE HOGAN RUSS: You would have been fifteen.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: No, then add three years onto that, because I was eighteen.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: I'm -- I'm Maureen Kennedy, um, Hawkins, I'm the niece of both ladies. Um, did you both go in the same time?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: I think so. Because your father --

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: More or less. I think you went in, uh, a week before me. Something like that.

JENNIFER EGAN: So Anne, why don't we -- let's start again with you, and tell us, um, where you were living, what your family configuration is like, and when you began to work at the Navy Yard.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Well, I was living at home with my parents and, uh, two sisters at, uh, 383 19th Street in Brooklyn.

JENNIFER EGAN: Okay. Okay. And -- and, uh, how old were you when you came to 14:00work at the yard, and when was that?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Uh, I was nineteen.

JENNIFER EGAN: Um, and so -- and that was -- what year was that?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Ahem. Um, '85. [laughter]

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Well, what year were you born?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: No.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Date of birth.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: [date redacted for privacy]-22.

JENNIFER EGAN: So it was '41?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: '40, uh. I would -- I graduated high school in '42, so you graduated before me.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yeah.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah. So you graduated in '41, right?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: '42, I think. I -- I don't know. [laughter]

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Well, '42 -- at that time they had graduations in January 15:00and September. Yeah.

JENNIFER EGAN: Did you know each other at that time?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Oh, definitely.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yes.

JENNIFER EGAN: Explain how you knew each other.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: I married her brother. [laughter] My sister in law.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: They were going out together that long. They were -- they were tiny pa -- people.

JENNIFER EGAN: [laughter] Um, so Anne, you were already married when you came to work at the Yard?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: No, I got married while working there.

JENNIFER EGAN: Uh-huh.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: I got married in 1944.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah.

JENNIFER EGAN: But you were already dating --

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Engaged.

JENNIFER EGAN: Engaged. Okay. Okay. And was he -- and he was actually in the service.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yes.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: My husband was in the service before I even -- he lived 16:00across the street from me.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: But he had gone into the service, the Navy.

JENNIFER EGAN: I see. And were you engaged already as well?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Mm, Yeah.

JENNIFER EGAN: When you went to the Navy Yard?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah. I never went out after that.

JENNIFER EGAN: So I'd like to talk to each of you about the specific kinds of work that you did at the Yard. Why don't you start, Mary? You mentioned that you came in as a welder.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yes.

JENNIFER EGAN: Do you remember how you came to work there? How did you hear of it?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Oh, everybody knew about it. You know.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Freddy got us the applications.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: That -- that's right. My brother-in-law, their father got, uh, applications.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm. And do you recall anything about the training or the process of actually getting the job?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: No, I, uh, I did some training.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: And uh, so all of the sudden, they changed me into, uh, figuring out how much it would cost to -- to uh, add each item on the boat.

JENNIFER EGAN: But you had been trained -- you were trained as a welder.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yes.

JENNIFER EGAN: And do you -- had you done any welding before?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: No.

JENNIFER EGAN: Or any other kinds of physical shop work?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: No.

JENNIFER EGAN: And --

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: I was always a bookkeeper.

JENNIFER EGAN: Uh-huh. And do you remember -- do you remember actually doing the welding?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yes.

JENNIFER EGAN: And what -- and what part --

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: I remember faint -- fainting one time. [laughter]

JENNIFER EGAN: Really?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: [laughter] I guess that has a lot to do with me being changed into the office or something.

JENNIFER EGAN: Really? Can you -- do you rem -- can you tell us a little more about that? Do you remember what happened?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Uh, no. I was sitting there, we were learning how to weld and everything else, and all of the sudden, they came and they picked me up off the floor, you know.

JENNIFER EGAN: So this was during the training for the welding.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yes.

JENNIFER EGAN: Ah-ha.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: And then I went into, uh, the welding part of it, but I didn't stay there long, because, uh, they put me in the, uh, the -- what -- what was it called? The master -- the head of the shop. You had a head of the shop --

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: I -- I had a boss, Mr. Chesslin [phonetic].

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Uh-huh.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: I had a boss.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah.

JENNIFER EGAN: The supervisor?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: The supervisor.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah, that's what I had.

JENNIFER EGAN: You had a supervisor.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah. Yeah.

JENNIFER EGAN: You mentioned that you were in Building Four.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah.

JENNIFER EGAN: And was that -- you were -- you started there as a welder?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yes.

JENNIFER EGAN: Do you remember what part of the building you were working in?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Uh, the ground floor.

JENNIFER EGAN: Um, do you remember what that part of the building looked like, what the situation was?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: It was all brick, and uh, it was very nice, as far as when I got into the head office, it was very, very nice.

JENNIFER EGAN: And was the head office in the same area as the welding?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yes, yes. We, uh, just moved along.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm. And do you remember how long you were actually a welder before you changed to the other job?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Oh, maybe four months.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm. Uh. Do you remember anything specifically about the 20:00welding work? I'll ask you about the other part too, but I just want to try to separate, since you did two different things.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: No, as I said, one day they just picked me up off the floor, I must have fainted or something, and uh, and they put me into, uh --

DEBBIE HOGAN RUSS: Debbie Russ. Ma, what was the welding like? Was it heavy? Were the tools heavy? Did you wear a mask? What was the welding like?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Oh, yes. Yes. You had to wear a mask, you know, because you -- you couldn't swallow that stuff. You know.

JENNIFER EGAN: You mentioned that you wore a uniform.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yes.

JENNIFER EGAN: What was it like?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: It was just a one-piece overall, or, uh -- not overalls --

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Coveralls.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Coveralls. Yeah. They covered everything, from buttons 21:00down, so.

JENNIFER EGAN: Did you bring that with you to work, or did you wear it to work? Do you remember when and how you changed into it?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: No, lots of times I wore it to work, and other times, I took it out of my locker and put it on. Depends on whether I was going out that afternoon or what, you know.

JENNIFER EGAN: I see. Can you explain? So if you were going out --

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: -- with Joe.

JENNIFER EGAN: -- then you would wear the uniform, or not wear the uniform?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: No. I would wear dresses or skirts and stuff.

JENNIFER EGAN: And -- and -- and change at the --

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: At the locker.

JENNIFER EGAN: Okay. Um, let's -- I want to return to that, but I want to hear a little bit about what you were doing, Anne. Can you explain what kind of work you did at the yard, and where you worked?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Uh, I worked in the machine shop, and worked on a lathe, 22:00and --

JENNIFER EGAN: And what building was that?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Uh, Building 31.

JENNIFER EGAN: Okay. Can you describe the -- the training process, what you had to learn to do that? Had you done that kind of work before?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: No. They, uh -- you had to be on the machine a month.

JENNIFER EGAN: What was the machine like?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: It was a -- a lathe. Long. Had to use a micrometer, uh, we had to, uh, tape -- taper sleeves, which is a part, I don't know. [laughter]

JENNIFER EGAN: Is it -- take the sleeves? Is it metal?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yeah.

JENNIFER EGAN: And what were you doing with them?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Well, we had to, uh, taper them, you know, use the micrometers and measure.

JENNIFER EGAN: Okay. And, uh, do you remember, was -- were there many of you 23:00working on the same thing at one time? Or were you by yourself?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: No. There was a machine shop, and there was all different types of machine there, and other people, you know, working on different machines.

JENNIFER EGAN: But on the lathe, would you work alone or with others?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Well, there would be a couple, you know, with -- with the lathe, and then different types of machines.

JENNIFER EGAN: And did you have a particular task that you usually did at the lathe?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Uh, just grinding down the -- the sleeves. [laughter]

JENNIFER EGAN: Uh-huh. And what were they used for after you did that? Do you know?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Well, they were parts for ships, you know. I don't know what part.

JENNIFER EGAN: Did it take a long time to grind one? Or was it -- did you work on one over days, or --

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: No, no. No.

JENNIFER EGAN: Can you explain how it would work? Did someone bring it to you? Just ta -- uh, since I don't know much about this --

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yeah. [laughter]

JENNIFER EGAN: -- try to take me through the process as much as you can.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yeah. They would be -- they would be, uh, in a basket, 24:00and you --

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: -- I'd grind them.

JENNIFER EGAN: So the sleeves were in a basket.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yeah.

JENNIFER EGAN: How large were they? How large were the sleeves?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Well, they were different sizes.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm. And were they thin pieces of metal, or thick?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: No, they were, you know, a quarter of an inch.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm. Okay. Do you know what kind of metal they were?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: No. I guess they were parts, you know, uh, a part they used.

JENNIFER EGAN: And so you would take them out of the basket, and -- then what?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Put them in another basket. [laughter]

JENNIFER EGAN: So you would attach them to the lathe?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: No -- well -- have them put them on the lathe to, to -- to work on them.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm. And how did you know what to do? What kinds of instructions did you have?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Well, they would stand there and instruct you, you know, 25:00just, uh, you know, what to do, how to use the micrometer, and --

JENNIFER EGAN: Uh, was this true even after you were fully trained? They would still stand there and instruct you --?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: No.

JENNIFER EGAN: And who would do that? Who was standing there? Do you remember -- was that -- what kind of job was that, the job of standing there?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Um, I guess -- it wouldn't be a supervisor, it would be someone, you know, might have been another --

JENNIFER EGAN: Lower than that.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: -- some worker or something teaching you.

JENNIFER EGAN: Uh-huh. And was that usually --

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Instructor, I guess you would say.

JENNIFER EGAN: And so, so that person would guide your movements with the lathe?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Right.

JENNIFER EGAN: Um, was that person usually a male or a female?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Male.

JENNIFER EGAN: And did you usually have the same person guiding you all the time? Or did that person change?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Well, once you learned how to do it, you know, you did it by yourself.

JENNIFER EGAN: I see. And so how did you know what to do with each sleeve when 26:00you would pull it out of the basket? Did you have a blueprint, or some written instructions? How did you know?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: No, you just take it, you put it in the machine, I think they were more or less the same, uh, you know, diameter, so --

JENNIFER EGAN: I see.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: -- they were all pretty uniform.

JENNIFER EGAN: And then when you were finished, you would put it --

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: In another basket.

JENNIFER EGAN: I see. And then take out another one. [laughter]

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: And they would take -- [laughter]

JENNIFER EGAN: And do you remember how many you would do in a day, for example?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Uh, I don't remember. [laughter] I'd say maybe, uh, fifteen.

JENNIFER EGAN: Okay. Okay. Um, now Mary, back to you for a second. So you were doing welding at the beginning.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Mm.

JENNIFER EGAN: And do you remember how, how you -- what you were welding together, and how you were guided through that?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Uh, actually, it was just strips, and -- and what they 27:00wanted to see was how I was welding.

JENNIFER EGAN: So this was part of the training.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yes. Yeah.

JENNIFER EGAN: So you were not really welding parts of a ship yet.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: No. Later on I, as I said before, I was transferred into the, uh, other office.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: And I figured out the cost for everything that was going on a ship.

JENNIFER EGAN: Talk a little bit about that work. How -- how did you do that? What -- what was your -- how did you do it?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: You know, uh, I guess a lot of it had to do with, uh, my bookkeeping.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm. And you had already been doing that before?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yes, yes. The first --

JENNIFER EGAN: How did you -- how did you come to do that, as a high school student?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: I -- I don't know, I picked that, and my first job was a bookkeeper.

JENNIFER EGAN: I see.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah.

JENNIFER EGAN: And do you remember where you were? What, what was your work situation in the office? Did you have your own desk?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yes. I had my own desk. There was about, uh, six of us that had the touching up towards the end of a ship, you know, that we, we -- we made sure that everything was there and whatnot.

JENNIFER EGAN: Made sure that everything was there? What kinds of things?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Well, as I said, turrets, and the, uh, guns and stuff

JENNIFER EGAN: Ah.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Things.

JENNIFER EGAN: And yet you were a bookkeeper.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yep.

JENNIFER EGAN: So how did this part -- how did this, um, making sure everything 29:00was there fit into this job?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Well, it ended up where a lot of it was bookkeeping, you know.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: And, uh, I just did a lot of adding and subtracting.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm. And when you say that you were -- your job was to make sure everything was there, what were you looking at to make sure that everything was there?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Papers. Uh, like, each individual would send in when they finished a job and everything else, and, and I would look at it and add it up and everything, and make sure it was right.

JENNIFER EGAN: I see. And were you making sure that the equipment was there? Or that it had been paid for, and that the numbers part of it was right?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: No. No, no. I had nothing to do with payment.

JENNIFER EGAN: I see.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah. Yeah. They took my figures as payment, and that was a -- a completely different department.

JENNIFER EGAN: I see. So, usually when I think of a bookkeeper, I think of someone who is keeping track of a balance sheet.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yes.

JENNIFER EGAN: So what -- if you were not keeping track of money, what were you keeping track of?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: The figures of whatever went in, into a ship.

JENNIFER EGAN: Ah-h, okay

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Like whatever went into the Missouri --

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: -- or -- you know, the smallest nut, you know.

JENNIFER EGAN: Ah-hah. So did you have to understand how a ship was put together in order to do that work?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yes. Yes, yes.

JENNIFER EGAN: Now, you probably didn't know that --

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: No.

JENNIFER EGAN: -- when you first got the job. So how did you find all that out?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Well, they helped me, my, uh, supervisor or boss or whatever it was, there were so many steps on, you know, higher and higher.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: And, uh, Larry, I remember Larry, uh --

JENNIFER EGAN: That was your supervisor?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: No, he wasn't the supervisor. He was -- I did the same work as he did.

JENNIFER EGAN: Okay:

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: You know? And, uh, eh, he was very, very, very kind, and, uh, he helped me out a lot.

JENNIFER EGAN: Do you remember his last name?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: No.

JENNIFER EGAN: And so he was one of the six -- one of the group that you were part of doing this -- this accounting. And, um, do you remember any of the other people?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Mm. No. I mean, that's a long time ago.

JENNIFER EGAN: Yeah. You're doing great, I'm impressed. [laughter] Um, so Larry helped you to understand -- what did -- how did Larry help you?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Uh, well, he would explain something to me, if I had a 32:00problem with it. And, uh, he'd just cut it out and mark it down and I would understand it better.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm. And when you did your bookkeeping, who -- whom did you give the numbers to? What was the next step?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Larry.

JENNIFER EGAN: Okay. So was Larry your boss?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Uh, yes. He was, uh -- in fact, he -- he taught me everything that I knew about the Navy Yard.

JENNIFER EGAN: Was he there before you came?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yes.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yes.

JENNIFER EGAN: And did he stay the whole time you were there?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yes, yes.

JENNIFER EGAN: And why was he not in the service?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: I don't know. I think he had four children or something, five children or something.

JENNIFER EGAN: So was he -- do you remember how old he was?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Um, I think he was in his early thirties.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm. Okay. Um, okay. Uh, so, um, so you would do your -- your figuring, and then give the numbers to Larry. And was he also responsible for giving the jobs -- the new jobs to you that you needed to do?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Oh, yes.

JENNIFER EGAN: Okay.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah.

JENNIFER EGAN: Did you work -- do you remember which shift you worked? Do you remember what shift you worked, what time you arrived and left?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Uh, I uh, worked all shifts.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: You know, until I, uh, went into the, the head office, and then I worked days.

JENNIFER EGAN: So all shifts as a welder, days in the office.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Mm-hmm.

JENNIFER EGAN: Okay. Do you remember who your supervisor was when you were a welder?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Larry.

JENNIFER EGAN: Same guy.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah.

JENNIFER EGAN: So he was both a welder and he worked in the office with the accounting?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah.

JENNIFER EGAN: Huh.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Well, they had to split up an awful lot of men, because they had so few of them, you know? Because -- because of the war.

JENNIFER EGAN: So he -- did he continue to be a welding supervisor, even when he was also doing the bookkeeping with you?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yes, yeah.

JENNIFER EGAN: So was he moving around the area?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Oh, yes. He moved around a lot.

JENNIFER EGAN: Now, you mentioned that you were on the first floor as a welder.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Right.

JENNIFER EGAN: And also on the first floor in the office.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yes.

JENNIFER EGAN: Can you describe how the space was organized?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Uh, the head office, uh, was --

JENNIFER EGAN: Here, I'm going to show you -- I'm going to show you Building Four on the map. There it is.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Okay.

JENNIFER EGAN: So did you come in at Sands Street, do you remember?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yes, I came in at Sands Street.

JENNIFER EGAN: So that's -- so that's here. So that's the Sands Street entrance.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yes. And I went all the way up to here, and this was Building Four because they had, uh, a lot of us in there, and...

JENNIFER EGAN: Do you remember where you were in that space?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: I think we -- I was over here.

JENNIFER EGAN: So kind of the northwest part.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Mm-hmm.

JENNIFER EGAN: And was that true while you were a welder and in the head office? Or were those two areas different?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yes. No, uh, the head office was over here, and I just 36:00moved in the, uh, the same floor, eh, same office and everything, and just moved over to the other.

JENNIFER EGAN: So when you were in your office, could you look around and see welders all around you?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Uh, a few of them, because most of them were in the shops, you know. Just those that were learning how to -- to weld.

JENNIFER EGAN: Okay. I'm going to show you the same map, Anne, and see what you can tell us about where you were. You said you were in Building 31?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: 31, mm-hmm. Ahem.

JENNIFER EGAN: Okay. Where is Building 31? Hmm. It is over here?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: I think it was right near Cumberland Street, or, ahem --

JENNIFER EGAN: So here's Cumberland, there's 30.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Maybe it was 30. [laughter] Maybe the building was 30.

JENNIFER EGAN: We haven't encountered 31 before, have we? It wasn't ringing a bell.

SADY SULLIVAN: No.

JENNIFER EGAN: Do you remember, was it -- were you near -- did you go to work near the gate that you came in?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: It wasn't too far, uh-uh. It might have been Building 30, shop 31, I don't know.

JENNIFER EGAN: Shop 31, I see. So it could have been in a different building.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Because we came in, uh, right by the gate, because they had had a look at your pocketbooks and stuff.

JENNIFER EGAN: Right. And so it was a short walk to where you were going?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yeah, mm-hmm.

JENNIFER EGAN: Okay, and was it -- do you remember the shape of the building?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: I think it was rectangular.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm. So maybe -- could I have been -- I wonder if it could have been 3. Um-- Oops I'm sorry.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: 31 sticks in my mind for something. [laughter]

JENNIFER EGAN: Okay. I'm just going to -- shop 31.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: You sure you weren't in 81?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Who?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: 18?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: No.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Oh

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: I don't know, shop 31, maybe the building had a different number.

JENNIFER EGAN: See, this is where Daniella would be helpful. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

JENNIFER EGAN: We have a third person in our -- on our team who's at the Navy Yard now, and she knows everything about this, but we don't. Um, okay, so -- what do you remember about how your building was organized?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Well, underneath, on the bottom floor, were the machines. And then there was also an office there with blueprints.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: And then our office was on the second floor.

JENNIFER EGAN: And where were you?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: I was in the office in the back. Like, oh, we had -- the 39:00office was here and then here, because here they had windows where the sailors used to come up.

JENNIFER EGAN: Oh, really? [laughter]

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: I wanted to be there, but come on. [laughter]

JENNIFER EGAN: Um, okay, wait, explain this. So are we on the first floor now or the second floor?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: The second floor.

JENNIFER EGAN: Okay, so you -- there -- there are windows. And you were working near the windows?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Well, I was in the back.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm. Uh, and so there was natural light coming in the windows.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: They would come up, and they wouldn't come into the office, they'd just stand there, and they'd come, uh, requisition us to different parts.

JENNIFER EGAN: The sailors.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yeah.

JENNIFER EGAN: So they came with requests.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Right.

JENNIFER EGAN: And who brought the parts to them?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Well, we had the -- there were mostly men in the office, only two -- two girls, women.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: One was in the front; one was in the back. And usually she would go up and, uh, get the parts. And then they had men in the office that were like runners.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: And uh, they would, uh, take care of, you know, getting the part, and sometimes we had to tag -- to tag them, and then, uh -- put tags on them. And then they, uh, would take them to, you know, whatever part --

JENNIFER EGAN: I see. Take them to the --

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Some were repairs, you know; some were parts that had to be repairs, and some were new parts.

JENNIFER EGAN: And this was on the second floor.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Right.

JENNIFER EGAN: So I'm wondering how these people were getting to the outside of the windows on the second floor. Was there a hall outside?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Well, it was like they were outside the office.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm. I see. So --

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: There was four -- you know, there was windows, in the --

JENNIFER EGAN: I see, so the window -- there were windows --

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yeah.

JENNIFER EGAN; -- but it wasn't -- they weren't windows leading to outdoors.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: No, they were op -- you know, they were open.

JENNIFER EGAN: I see. And you were, meanwhile, working on the lathe.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: I was only on the lathe for a month.

JENNIFER EGAN: Okay. And what happened after that?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Then they put you upstairs in the office.

JENNIFER EGAN: Okay. And do you know why you made that change?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Well, sometimes you had to do that, just to get the, uh, title or something, you know, just to, I guess we hired as a machinist or -- although you didn't, when you went in you didn't say you were a machinist --

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: But they give you the training, and then -- I -- to me, it was just more a title.

JENNIFER EGAN: So it was a normal part of being a machinist --

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Right.

JENNIFER EGAN: -- that you worked on the machines and in the office?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yeah.

JENNIFER EGAN: Um, so you worked on the lathe, and then you moved to the office. But you mentioned that you became -- once you were trained on the lathe, you didn't need the pers -- the instructor standing next to you telling you what to do.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: No.

JENNIFER EGAN: And so how long were you on the lathe by yourself before you made that move?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Oh, a couple of -- mm, about maybe three weeks or so. I was only on the lathe a month altogether.

JENNIFER EGAN: Okay. So then explain what happened then and how your work changed.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Well, because then you went up and you worked in the office, but you're still like, like Mary said, you still had to wear the coveralls and the safety shoes and the hair had to be up in a hat.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Mm.

JENNIFER EGAN: What kind of hat?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Uh, like a --

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: A cap? Wasn't it a cap?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Like a baseball cap, with uh, you know, with the peak.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: And all our hair had to be up.

JENNIFER EGAN: Did you put it up in a rubber band, or with pins?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Uh, no, we kept -- most of the time we, we kept it short.

JENNIFER EGAN: Uh-huh.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: So it would be easy to put it in the hat.

JENNIFER EGAN: Right. So they didn't want hair hanging out of the hat.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: No, no.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: It would get caught in the machine, which it didn't work. [laughter]

JENNIFER EGAN: I see. So you had your coveralls, your hat. What about shoes?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Safety shoes. Steel tips.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah. Steel tips, right?

JENNIFER EGAN: Okay. And so you kept those things at the Navy Yard?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yeah. You had a locker, and you changed, and --

JENNIFER EGAN: Okay. Where were the lockers?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: The locker was on the second floor -- you know, on the same level as the office, in the back.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Ours was on the first floor.

JENNIFER EGAN: Um, so after you went to the office, Anne, you -- what, what did you do there?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Well, there we did mostly, uh -- sometimes we'd print up tickets -- not print, you know, write up tickets. They give you a blueprint and 44:00you write up tickets for different parts. And then, uh, sometimes I had to deliver the blueprints to another building.

JENNIFER EGAN: What -- do you remember what buildings you went to?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Uh, I think 77. Is there a 77? [laughter]

JENNIFER EGAN: Yup, there is. Um, I'll show it to you. Do you remember any other buildings you would go to?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Not really. Uh, just seeing the work between those, you know, my building and the 77. Like a -- like a courier or messenger or something, you know.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm. Do you remember -- um, was your building near 77?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: No. You had to walk -- you know.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Oh, sometimes I had to pick up way for the other end of the, uh --

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: But I didn't mind. It was nice to get out in the air and walk.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm. So Mary, you also had to go to other buildings sometimes.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah. We -- 4 was, uh, practically right near the gate as you come in.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: But, uh, we ended up going to 77 or something, and --

JENNIFER EGAN: And that would be a long walk, because --

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Oh, yeah.

JENNIFER EGAN: -- here's you at 4, and there is 77, so --

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah.

JENNIFER EGAN: -- all the way.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: That was a long walk. And it was down here, we used to walk this way.

JENNIFER EGAN: Oh, you would walk on the street. Outside of here?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah. No. No, no. Inside.

JENNIFER EGAN: I see. But along the edge.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Along the edge.

JENNIFER EGAN: Along the inside of Flushing.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Because we would go in the building the back way.

JENNIFER EGAN: Here, I'm going to show you, um, Anne, where 77 is also. So there -- we're thinking that you were somewhere around here.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yeah, probably was.

JENNIFER EGAN: And there's 77. So that would be fairly close.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yeah, it wasn't too -- you know, it wasn't too long.

JENNIFER EGAN: Right. So, um, Anne, you mentioned that -- you often say "we," um, you know, we worked on the lathe and then went to the office, were there -- were you part of a time, and all of you moved to the office? Oh -- thank you.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: No. No, we worked -- we worked individually.

JENNIFER EGAN: Um, so when you moved to the office, did other people -- other machinists move to the office with you?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Well, one other, uh, girl.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm. And who was that?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Ruth. Her name was Ruth Flaherty [phonetic] -- Ruth Flaherty, yeah. [laughter]

JENNIFER EGAN: Good, good one! [laughter]

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: I have a daughter, Ruth-Anne. [laughter]

JENNIFER EGAN: Ruth Flaherty, another Irish girl. Um, and so she was also on the lathe, and then moved?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Right. Mm-hmm.

JENNIFER EGAN: And so, in the office, did you sit at a desk?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yes.

JENNIFER EGAN: And you mentioned that you, um -- when you would write up tickets for different parts --

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Right.

JENNIFER EGAN: What -- what does that mean?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Little tags, like, you know --

JENNIFER EGAN: So you would look at a blueprint, and what would that blueprint tell you?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Well, they would have it listed, numbered, and you just copied what was on the -- on the blueprint.

JENNIFER EGAN: And you were writing up tags for pieces of equipment?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yes.

JENNIFER EGAN: And -- so would you actually put the tags on the equipment?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: No. No. Just wrote the tags, and then they, they -- you know, they, uh -- they would, you know, they would tag it.

DEBBIE HOGAN RUSS: Was it like a purchase order, like, uh, listing what was needed for the ship?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Well, I --

DEBBIE HOGAN RUSS: Taking information from the blueprint?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yeah. Well, it wasn't only blueprints; it was different, you know, different forms.

JENNIFER EGAN: So, just so I understand the process, who would bring you the blueprint?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Well, we had a supervisor. He'd hand you the work.

JENNIFER EGAN: And do you remember his name?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Mr. Chesslin [phonetic], that's all I --

JENNIFER EGAN: Good. I'm impressed. [laughter]

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: He was -- [laughter] -- I couldn't forget his name.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: You're passing the test.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mr. Chesslin. So he would say, "Here's a blueprint."

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yeah.

JENNIFER EGAN: And then what would you, um -- you would look at the blueprint and know: what?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Would know what part -- you know, what parts were needed.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm. And then --

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: I mean, it would be there, I wouldn't know the part myself. But you know, it was --

JENNIFER EGAN: So the blueprint would say --

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Say, yeah --

JENNIFER EGAN: -- we need these parts. And then what would you do?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Well, you'd, you know, you'd write up as many as you need, and then, uh, they would collect it, you know, and that.

JENNIFER EGAN: So was there -- when you say wrote up a tag, was there a standardized tag form?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yeah, just a regular tag with a string on it and you'd tie it on, you know different parts.

JENNIFER EGAN: Okay. So you would write up tags, and then who would collect the tags from you?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Well, I guess they have a runner or something, and they, you know --

JENNIFER EGAN: And you mentioned that there would be sailors outside the windows of the office. How did they fit into this routine?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Well, they would be sent to pick up the parts, or to, uh, bring in the order for something that they needed.

JENNIFER EGAN: And where they in -- in sailor uniforms?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yeah. [laughter]

JENNIFER EGAN: Were they, uh -- what were they like, the sailors?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Oh... very cute. [laughter]

DEBBIE HOGAN RUSS: Were -- were they on ships that were in dock --

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yeah.

DEBBIE HOGAN RUSS: -- like, waiting for parts, or?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yeah, they were in for repairs, or, you know --

JENNIFER EGAN: Were they polite?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Oh, yeah.

JENNIFER EGAN: Did you ever have a chance to chat with them? Was it social ever?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: No. Unfortunately. [laughter]

DEBBIE HOGAN RUSS: You were engaged at the time. [laughter]

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yes, I was. [laughter]

DEBBIE HOGAN RUSS: To my uncle. (laughter)

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: You're asking me in front of the wrong people. [laughter]

JENNIFER EGAN: [laughter] Well, but you know, we all have to look for ways to brighten our day, right?

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: And a sailor probably was pretty [inaudible].

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yeah, it's pretty dull working on the machine. [laughter]

JENNIFER EGAN: Exactly. [laughter] Now, once you were in the office, did you ever also work on machines?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: No.

JENNIFER EGAN: Okay.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Just the one month, like, on the machines.

JENNIFER EGAN: Okay. So one month of lathe work, and that was it for machines. And were there other women still working on the -- on the machines?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: I guess there were, yeah.

JENNIFER EGAN: Um, okay. And I don't know if I asked you, Anne, how long you were at the Yard. I don't think I did.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Uh, I think about two years.

JENNIFER EGAN: And were you in that same office the whole time?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yes.

JENNIFER EGAN: And Mary, were you -- once you finished with your welding work, were you in that same office for the whole time you were there too?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah. Yeah.

JENNIFER EGAN: So now I'd like to talk to both of you a little bit about the people that you worked with. You've mentioned some, a male supervisor --

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: I don't remember the people I worked with.

JENNIFER EGAN: Well, you remember Larry.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Larry, yeah. Because, uh -- he explained everything to me, you know. But, uh, I don't know, I don't remember the, uh, who's in charge of, uh, eh, of everything, and stuff.

JENNIFER EGAN: Well, do you, you um -- what about other women?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Well, we barely said hello to them, you know, we were in the locker room, we'd say hello or something, and they'd answer us back, and that was it.

JENNIFER EGAN: So you really were not very friendly with the other women.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: No. No, I never went out with, uh, a group --

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: -- of women or anything like that.

JENNIFER EGAN: Were there --

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: I don't want to interrupt -- Maureen Kennedy Hawkins.

JENNIFER EGAN: Yeah.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: Just to mention here that Mary's sister Julie Hannigan also worked there.

JENNIFER EGAN: I was wondering who Julie was.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: No, she didn't work there --

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: In the Navy Yard.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: No.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: She never worked in the Navy Yard?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: No. She worked in the, uh, the Army Plaza.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: Okay.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah, the Grand Army Plaza way out --

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: I thought she was in the Navy --

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: -- in Bay Ridge.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: Okay.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: Then scratch that. [laughter]

JENNIFER EGAN: Was she living with you as well on Fifth Street?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yes. Yeah.

JENNIFER EGAN: Okay. But when you say we, when you were in the locker room, we didn't talk to the other women, who is we? Were you -- was there someone else that you were with --?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Most of the, uh --uh, the people that were in changing and everything else, they wanted to get out of there.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: You know? And, uh, go home.

JENNIFER EGAN: So there was not a lot of lingering and chatting.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: No. No. Uh, there could have been other people who had groups and stuff, but we never did.

JENNIFER EGAN: In your office, were -- do you remember the other people who were doing the -- the accounting with you?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: No... I think I was doing the accounting.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah.

JENNIFER EGAN: Were there many other female welders that you can recall?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yes, there was a lot of female -- female welders.

JENNIFER EGAN: And, uh, did you -- when you were welding, did you to know any of them at all?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Uh, no, because I wasn't, uh -- I really wasn't there, uh too much. You know. Too long. And, um, when I went into the office, because of 54:00-- of Larry, he put me in the office, you know.

JENNIFER EGAN: Right. Do you have a -- even though it doesn't sound like you chatted too much, do you have a memory of what -- what kinds of families these girls were from?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Most of them had, had, had, uh -- uh, three or four children or something. But, uh, I wasn't even married at the time that I was in there.

JENNIFER EGAN: So you remember the other women as being mothers, on the whole.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yes.

JENNIFER EGAN: Huh. Okay. So you were younger than a lot of them.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Oh, yes. Yeah. As I said, I just got out of high school.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: I worked in an insurance company in Manhattan for, uh, about four or five months, and then I went to the Navy Yard.

JENNIFER EGAN: So this was your second job since high school.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Mm-hmm.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: I will interrupt you also --

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yes.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: -- I'm Maureen Kennedy Hawkins -- because I only recently found out my father was at the Navy -- Navy Yard, Greg Kennedy.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Oh --

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: He was a paymaster.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: And from what I now understand, my father got the applications for both Mary and Anne to go and be at the Navy Yard. That's how they got introduced to the job.

JENNIFER EGAN: I see.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: And I want to also clarify the house where Mary was growing up and was living at this time --

JENNIFER EGAN: Yes.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: Um, that was a two-family house in Park Slope, 413 Fifth Street. My grandmother, Catherine Hannigan, and John Hannigan, they owned the house. And at that time, Mary and Julie and Johnny were living there. Was Tommy also living there too?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yes, for a while --

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: Okay. The four of them --

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: -- before he went into the service.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: OK. And Peggy also, before she got married, was living there.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: So the five of them were living there, all single at 56:00that point. And the one apartment was my mother Catherine, who was their sister, and my father, Fred Kennedy.

JENNIFER EGAN: I see.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: So there were six siblings -- five siblings? --

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Uh, Nana had six.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: Okay. There were six of them, my grandmother, sometimes my grandfather --

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: And four of you.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: Six children --

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: -- and one son-in-law, Fred Kennedy, who introduced the Navy Yard to the Hannigan family.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

JENNIFER EGAN: I see. And your mother and father were married by that time, they were living in the house.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: They were married and had children, and my father was not in the service, because he was considered essential personnel at the Navy Yard.

JENNIFER EGAN: Right.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: And at the same time, then, Anne was engaged to John Hannigan, and that brings her into the picture.

JENNIFER EGAN: I see. Okay.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: Okay. So Fred Kennedy, married to a Hannigan, brought Mary Hannigan Hogan and Anne about-to-be-Hannigan to the Navy Yard. [laughter] And both of their spouses at the time were in the service --

JENNIFER EGAN: Okay.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: -- and so was the other brother, Tommy.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: Tommy Hannigan was in the service.

JENNIFER EGAN: That was a beautifully clarifying paragraph.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: Good. Very good.

JENNIFER EGAN: Thank you so much. I'm just glad it's on tape. [laughter]

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: And -- and one more thing to just add, we were confused about when Aunt Mary started there, and I'm not going to do the math, but you have her birth date, and she was about 18.

JENNIFER EGAN: Right.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: So just, that would be the time.

JENNIFER EGAN: Right.

SADY SULLIVAN: And so how did your father start at the Navy Yard?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: He was there; he always was there as far as we remember as kids.

JENNIFER EGAN: So that was his career at that time.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: Well he'd be -- I don't know how he got started there, and I -- I'm thinking he was in his early thirties at that point.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Early!

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: Well, I was -- I -- let's see.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Wasn't he --

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: 37 --

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: -- didn't he meet Aunt Catherine down in, uh --

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: Germaine's.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: -- Germaine's? He used to go there on a Saturday night and meet --

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: Was he at the Navy Yard at that point?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: I think so.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: When they go married, was he at the Navy Yard?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: I think so. Yeah

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: Okay. They were married in 1930 --

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: I think he went there for the war, right, just before the --

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: It must be through the war. That I know. He was there when I was born; I was born in '42. He was there when Cathy was a baby; she was born in thirty -- '39. He was already there in '39, so somewhere in -- just before that time, when he started there.

JENNIFER EGAN: So now each of you knew two other people at the Navy Yard. You knew each other, and you know Maureen's dad, Fred.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah, because we lived in the same house.

JENNIFER EGAN: So did you encounter each other at work?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Ahem. No. Never.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: No.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: I -- sometimes we worked nights -- I don't know about Mary, but sometimes we worked the four to twelve.

JENNIFER EGAN: mm-hmm.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Like every so often, you had to, uh, you know, take a turn on the four to twelve shift.

JENNIFER EGAN: To do your office work.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Right.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm. Um, and so did you then encounter people you knew at all?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Not too many, because it was a quiet shift, you know. In fact, you were in a different office across the way from the -- in the same building, but in a different office.

JENNIFER EGAN: The night shift was in a different office.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Right.

JENNIFER EGAN: Ah. Okay. What was -- what was that office like?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Well, it was just -- most, you know, just, uh, [inaudible], no sailors coming up to the window. [laughter]

JENNIFER EGAN: No sailors. Not as interesting.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Not as [inaudible].

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: I never met -- I never met sailors.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: You didn't?

JENNIFER EGAN: Really?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: You married -- your husband was a sailor, right?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah. [laughter] He was already in the service.

DEBBIE HOGAN RUSS: She had her sailor. [laughter]

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah.

JENNIFER EGAN: Anne, talk a little bit about the people that you worked with. Do 60:00you remember, um, much about them?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Well, one -- there was only another -- one other girl in the office, and we became very friendly. She was married, she had a -- a boy, six years old at the time. But she lived in the Bronx. So we became, you know, we became friendly. A couple of times we went to movies, and -- and I went to her house, and --

JENNIFER EGAN: And, uh, was her husband in the service as well?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: No.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: One of those, Debbie.

JENNIFER EGAN: Um, do you remember --

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: But just --

JENNIFER EGAN: Do you remember other people, male or female, a sense of what their family backgrounds were, what their ethnic backgrounds were?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Well, there was the -- the other -- as I said, there was mostly men in the office, and uh, most of them were married and had families.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm. Did you encounter other girls as you were changing in the 61:00locker room too?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Well, you know, not, uh -- there weren't really that many in the, in the, uh, in that particular office.

JENNIFER EGAN: Right. Did -- and so you social -- you socialized with Ruth sometimes.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Ruth, uh-huh.

JENNIFER EGAN: Was there anyone else that you would sometimes see after work, or --?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: No, not really.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm. Um, what about African-Americans? Were there -- were there other -- were there black people working in your buildings at all?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: There were -- most of them worked as custodians and, uh --

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: There -- there was none, like, in the office.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Gee, I never saw one.

JENNIFER EGAN: Hm.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: No? [laughter]

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: I never saw one.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Well, you know, we would talk-- we would socialize with them in, you know, at work, you know, talk.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm. Did you have a sense that other people in the office were sometimes hanging around together at other times, or, um, getting together after 62:00work, any sense of -- ?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Not. No. No, not really.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm. Talk a little bit about -- I'm curious from both of you, your daily return. What time did you have to get up to get to work; how did you get there--?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Uh, I guess I used to get up at 6:00, 6:30. I think I had to be in at 8:00, I'm not sure if it was 7:00 or 8:00, but -- [laughter]. And we used to take the trolley car, McDonald Avenue trolley car.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Mm-hmm.

JENNIFER EGAN: Wait, now, where did the trolley go?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: I'd walk two blocks. I lived on, uh, Seventh Avenue and uh --

JENNIFER EGAN: -- and 16th --

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: -- and the trolley car was up on Ninth Avenue.

JENNIFER EGAN: Okay.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: And you took that, and that took you right to Cumberland Street.

JENNIFER EGAN: Okay.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: And, uh, we went in that entrance, and they would search your bags.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: They had the Marines at the door. [laughter]

JENNIFER EGAN: And what were they like?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: They were very nice. [laughter] I knew one. [laughter] He was my cousin's friend. So he --

JENNIFER EGAN: And he was actually one of the -- put -- the gate --

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: At the guard, yeah. And then if you were a minute late, they'd make you stop, because they'd be raising the flag, and, uh --

JENNIFER EGAN: So if you got there after 8:00, you had to wait.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yeah.

JENNIFER EGAN: And what would happen while you were waiting?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Well, they'd, uh, raise the flag for the day, and once the flag was up, you could go in. [laughter]

JENNIFER EGAN: And was there a problem if you were late? How did they -- what, what would happen?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: No. Only because, you know, you had to clock in, you know, time clock.

JENNIFER EGAN: Okay. So there was just a ceremonial flag-raising at 8:00.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Right. Right.

JENNIFER EGAN: Um, okay. So then you -- and you walked to your building, and 64:00what about breaks, lunchtime --?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: I think I got a half hour. I had -- you brought your lunch. And I think they had stands you could buy sandwiches and the -- and packaged -- you know.

JENNIFER EGAN: Where did you eat?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: In the office.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm. So you were in that building pretty continuously.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yeah.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Mm.

JENNIFER EGAN: Um, and -- and then did you -- and then you worked straight through the afternoon -- how long a shift was it?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: I think it was 8:00 --

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Twelve hours?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: 8:00 to 4:00?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: 8:00 to 4:00?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Is that eight hours? I'm not sure if it's 7:00 to 4:00 or 8:00 to 4:00. It was eight hours, 8:00 to 4:00.

JENNIFER EGAN: Okay. And then, at 4:00, do you remember what you would do then?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Well, I would change out of the coveralls and get dressed, and outside and take the bus -- the trolley car back home.

JENNIFER EGAN: Right. So you got home pretty early.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yeah.

JENNIFER EGAN: Um, and Mary, what about you? You, you were coming in a different entrance, the Sands Street entrance. Do you remember how you got there each day?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Well, sometimes I used to take the Ninth Avenue trolley car, or the Seventh Avenue, and ride it down to, uh -- or I would transfer to another car. Um, uh, it was easy. It was so, so easy to get to, to work.

JENNIFER EGAN: Did you bring your lunch also?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Oh, definitely, yeah.

JENNIFER EGAN: And where did you eat?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: In the office.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm. Uh, and do you remember any other breaks during the day, or was it --?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Breaks? No. [laughter]

JENNIFER EGAN: They worked you hard. [laughter] Um, you both mentioned having to 66:00do errands away from your building sometimes, and --

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah.

JENNIFER EGAN: -- Anne, you mentioned that it was a welcome --

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah, you'd walk slowly, you know. laughter)

JENNIFER EGAN: -- a welcome exit, because really, it sounds like you were in that building the whole day. Talk about what would happen when you had those errands? What was it -- what was the feeling of the yard as you walked around? What was it like?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Well, it was, you know -- there was always a lot of activity.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm. Do you remember any of -- did you see sailors around there, or was it other Navy Yard employees? Do you remember the -- have any sense of what --

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah, well, it was employees. The mix, you know, the mix, uh, uh, sailors, and more sailors -- [laughter].

JENNIFER EGAN: Um, did you see ships?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yes.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Because they were right, you know, right there.

JENNIFER EGAN: Uh, did you ever go on a ship?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: No.

JENNIFER EGAN: Did you want to?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: No. (laughter)

JENNIFER EGAN: Okay. Why not?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: I didn't want to go away from my family. [laughter]

JENNIFER EGAN: Well, I just mean go on, because the ships were not sailing at that point.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Oh.

JENNIFER EGAN: Were you curious to see what they were like inside?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Well, I knew -- I had, eh -- I knew what they were like inside, you know --

JENNIFER EGAN: From the blueprints. [laughter]

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Not only that, uh-- But I had all the, uh, important things.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: We weren't allowed to go on. [laughter]

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: No, we weren't.

JENNIFER EGAN: Is that right? How was that communicated to you?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Well. You don't step on the ship.

JENNIFER EGAN: And you being who? People working in the office, or --?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Oh, it could be. You know. They make sure, like, if you had 77, and you were in 4, you had such a long walk, you couldn't take a shortcut by 68:00going on a ship for anything, you know.

JENNIFER EGAN: Could you walk by the ships if you wanted to?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yes. Because sometimes the, uh, the way to get to where you were going was down by the ships.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm. But it was not the kind of thing where you could just go on a ship.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: No. Oh, no, no. In fact, some of the men even had to prove that they belonged on the ship.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm. Do you remember, either of you, just any impressions of the Yard? Do you remember, um, any things that you saw walking around there, or --?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Didn't we see the President one day? He came in a car or something?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yeah, I, I didn't, you know -- Yeah, it was just -- it 69:00was like another city, you know?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: You just, uh, everybody rushing.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: But we had, we had an important visitor one day. And I don't remember who it was. I'm losing my earring.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: It's Maureen Kennedy again. Um, I know that the Missouri was christened there. My other sister seems to think she was there for the christening of the Missouri, and I'm curious if that might be a time when there was some personnel, some, you know, upper personnel or whatever might have been there for that event.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah.

JENNIFER EGAN: Do you remember the christening of the Missouri?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Uh, no, because I wasn't, uh, down there near the Missouri when they were christening. But I remember, uh, all the things that were in the paper and stuff.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm. But this important visitor, do you remember glimpsing that person?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: I think it was the President, you know? At that time, who was the President? Reagan, or --? I forget. Yeah.

JENNIFER EGAN: Truman?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Huh? Truman?

JENNIFER EGAN: Truman?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Who -- he died in --

JENNIFER EGAN: Well, Margaret Truman christened the Missouri, right?

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: Oh, okay.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah, but that -- that was later.

JENNIFER EGAN: Yeah.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: But if Margaret Truman christened the Missouri, her father was probably the Vice-President, with FDR being the president.

JENNIFER EGAN: Yeah. Did FDR visit the Navy Yard?

SADY SULLIVAN: I think so. Or, or -- yeah. I know he came to Ebbet's Field, then might have been -- at the, at the Navy Yard.

JENNIFER EGAN: That may be our --

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Ebbet's Field?

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Ebbet's Field was, uh, a baseball, uh --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: -- was way out on the other side of the park.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah.

JENNIFER EGAN: So, so you may have seen -- so maybe he did, um, visit, uh --

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: I think it was the President, yeah.

JENNIFER EGAN: -- maybe FDR did visit. And do you remember what that felt like? Was there excitement about it?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah, it was pretty much excitement and everything. They -- they clapped and they yelled as he went by.

JENNIFER EGAN: And you were part of that; you saw the car go by.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Mm-hmm. Yeah, they let us out for that.

JENNIFER EGAN: Do you remember whether people talked about politics and about the war very much at the Yard?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: No.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: No.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: We had a job to do and that was it.

JENNIFER EGAN: Was there a good feeling about the President?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Oh, yeah. Well, he was in charge of everything --

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: -- and no matter who was the President, he, you know, he 72:00had, uh, a backing behind him.

JENNIFER EGAN: Right. Any other unusual events you remember happening at the yard? Anything at all? Certainly the President visiting would be one.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Mm.

JENNIFER EGAN: Any -- I know other people we've talked to did see some ships heading out, um, other things like that? I'm just wondering any time when the routine broke for whatever reason, and you saw --

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Hm. Well, talking about ships going out, sometimes if you're over on, uh, 77th Street or whatever it was, uh, you'd see a ship go out. You'd stand at it, look at it, and you figured out, did I have anything to do with that ship, and stuff, you know.

JENNIFER EGAN: So you actually could -- did see some of the ships heading out of 73:00the dry docks.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Oh, definitely, yeah.

JENNIFER EGAN: And could you see that from Building 4, or was that -- did you --

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: No, no. You'd have to be down, uh, closer to the water. And you would have to, uh, be really out there.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: You know, in order to see it.

JENNIFER EGAN: And did you, did you get a warning that that would be happening so you could come down and look?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: No, it was, uh, really, um -- lucky, if you, you -- you saw something like that, you know.

JENNIFER EGAN: So it just happened by chance.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Right, right.

JENNIFER EGAN: You would -- if you happened to be out delivering something.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Right.

JENNIFER EGAN: And do you --

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: I mean, since we walked so far from one end to the other end of the yard, you know --

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: And, uh, with the other end of the yard, they were all going out.

JENNIFER EGAN: And so you mentioned that you would ask yourself whether you had 74:00done any work that pertained to that ship. Do -- and you mentioned that you did work on the Missouri. Were there other ships that you know that you had some involvement --?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Oh, Bennington, the Coral Sea, and something. You know, a couple others that I don't remember. I remember the Coral Sea and the Bennington.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm. And the Missouri.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: And the Missouri, yeah.

JENNIFER EGAN: And did you get to see any of -- were any of those the ones that you saw heading out of the dry docks?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: I think I -- one time I think I saw the Missouri go out. This was before, uh, it went out on the, on the training -- you know, how they learned how to train and stuff, you know.

JENNIFER EGAN: Um, and when you say -- when you would ask yourself if this was a 75:00ship you had had some part in, the part that you would have had was the office part, the accounting part?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yes, the, uh, money part.

JENNIFER EGAN: Except that you said it wasn't money.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Well, no, not, not money actually. But it involved money.

JENNIFER EGAN: In what way?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Well, you'd have to figure out how much a turret was, or how much a, a shotgun was, you know. They used to have those guns on the ships and stuff.

JENNIFER EGAN: I see. Um, okay. Did you -- did either of you ever meet people as you walked around the Yard?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Well, you would say hello, you know, you know, friendly, you know, everybody's friendly.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: That's all.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Because you -- like I say, it's like another city; you're in there, and, uh, and then some people you would know by sight, and not, you know, you wouldn't know their name, you know, they'd [inaudible].

JENNIFER EGAN: And, Anne, what about you with, with the ships? Did you see any of them coming out of dry dock --

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: No.

JENNIFER EGAN: -- or the christening, or were you aware of the Presidential visit at all?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: No.

JENNIFER EGAN: So you -- do you have any memories of any time when your routine was interrupted at the Yard?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: No, not really.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: You mean they didn't let you out to see the President? They let us.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: No, they didn't tell me. [laughter]

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: In Building 4, you know.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yeah, no maybe I was playing hooky that day, I don't know. [laughter] I don't remember, you know. I really don't remember.

JENNIFER EGAN: Do you remember, um, anything about the, uh, whether there were 77:00any safety issues, or was there, were there -- you both were working, for a while yourselves and later near people who were doing heavy physical work. Were there -- were there safety issues at all? Did people get hurt that you can remember?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Oh, yes, yes.

JENNIFER EGAN: Talk about that.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah. I know I passed out one -- one day. Uh, just sitting at -- welding. And, uh, all of the sudden, I went out.

JENNIFER EGAN: Do you know why that happened?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: No.

JENNIFER EGAN: Do you have a sense? Was it -- was it, um --

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: I still don't know to this day why I did that.

JENNIFER EGAN: Had you ever passed out before?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Oh, yeah. Lots of times.

JENNIFER EGAN: Oh.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah.

JENNIFER EGAN: So that was something that would happen to you sometimes.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yes. Yeah.

JENNIFER EGAN: I see. Do you think that that might have been one reason why they moved you to the office, because if you're welding -- ?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: No, I was still with Larry then. I wasn't in the office 78:00then, no.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm. Right. Was it considered to be unsafe if you would pass out while welding?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yes. Yeah. Uh, especially if you dropped the, uh, the gun. They used to call it the gun.

JENNIFER EGAN: Uh-huh. Did you like the work of a welder?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yes.

JENNIFER EGAN: And what about the office work, how did -- how did you like that?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Oh, I liked that too. I've been very lucky with all the jobs I've had, you know.

JENNIFER EGAN: Um, Anne, what about you? Any safety issues in the machine shop? I would think that there would be a lot of potential hazards there.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yeah, No, but really -- of course, you had to wear your safety shoes, that, you know -- but, uh, you didn't walk through the shop part 79:00too much. You know, you'd come in and go upstairs to where the office is, and you'd come down, and -- with no, uh -- because you know they're supposed to, like, put your hair up, keep your hair up and all that when you're walking. But you had to be careful, but there was no, uh -- I wasn't come -- didn't come in contact with anything, no, that close to the machines, really.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm. Do you remember much about the physical conditions of your workplace? Was it hot, cold? Do you remember a sense of temperature or the weather, how it would change?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Well, they didn't have air conditioning.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: No.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: You know, they had fans.

JENNIFER EGAN: So what was that like in the summer?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Oh. [laughter]

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Well it would, you know, be warm.

JENNIFER EGAN: And what about in the winter?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: That was pretty good.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Well, you know, it wasn't cold; it was comfortable.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm. Um, let's see. Now, can you explain why both of you left the Navy Yard?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Well, they -- after the war, they'd just let you go, you know -- they -- you --

JENNIFER EGAN: And you were there up until that point.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Up -- yeah. Once the war was over, they didn't need all the workers, as most of them that were hired were temporary.

JENNIFER EGAN: Do you remember how you -- how you learned that you were no longer going to be working there?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Well, I guess they told you, you know, probably, uh, in your paycheck, I guess. No one --

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: I don't know. I -- I quit.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Oh, you quit? Oh. [laughter]

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: I was fired!

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: I, uh, wanted to get back into regular business, you know. And, uh, my sister, Julie, had -- was working for this, uh, company, and uh, she said, "Ma, come --" Ma. [laughter] Uh -- "Just come, uh, and look at the job," or something. But, uh, Hugh Watson [phonetic], he was at my wedding and everything else, you know. So, uh, I, uh, was hired. I, I just walked into another job, and I was doing the, uh, telephone, you know --

JENNIFER EGAN: Oh, okay.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah, for a while.

JENNIFER EGAN: So you were a telephone company employee.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: I think they probably --

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Well, no, I worked for the company.

JENNIFER EGAN: Oh, I see. Like a --

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: But they had, uh, different, um, different, uh, telephones that you'd have to ring. You know.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm. So, um, and why did you want to leave the Navy Yard? This was before the war ended, I take it.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Uh, no, the war had ended.

JENNIFER EGAN: Ah.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: But uh, I figured I knew a lot of people were going to be let go --

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: -- so I figured I'd get a head start.

JENNIFER EGAN: Right. So you actually got out before you would have been laid off.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yes.

JENNIFER EGAN: Uh. And at what point in all of this did both of you marry?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Uh, I guess I was working there about a year, I got married in 1944.

JENNIFER EGAN: And was that -- now, your husband was in the service, so was he back for a leave, or --?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yes, leave.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Oh, thank you.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Thank you.

JENNIFER EGAN: And, Mary, what about you? At what point did you marry?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: I married in '46. Yeah. Uh --

JENNIFER EGAN: So after your husband came back.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: No. Debbie was born on a Naval air base.

JENNIFER EGAN: Oh, really?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah. Joseph was born at home, because I wanted to have the first child at home. But, uh. And then I had the other one at [inaudible].

JENNIFER EGAN: Hold on sec until [inaudible].

[Interview Interrupted.]

JENNIFER EGAN: So, Mary, you did not marry -- you did not get married until 84:00after you had left the Navy Yard.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: That's right.

JENNIFER EGAN: Okay.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah. Tommy gave me away. And --

JENNIFER EGAN: And when you were both -- I'm sorry, go on.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Johnny was, uh -- her husband was my best man.

JENNIFER EGAN: Oh, okay.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: So it's all the family.

JENNIFER EGAN: Yeah. And so you were -- you knew each other and were friendly at the time that you were both at the Navy Yard.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Oh, yes.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Oh yes.

JENNIFER EGAN: But you don't ever have a memory of seeing each other there?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: No.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Very seldom.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Maybe our hours were different; I don't know.

JENNIFER EGAN: Well, it seems you definitely worked far away from each other.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yes.

JENNIFER EGAN: Did you talk outside the Navy Yard about the work that you were doing?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: No, because we didn't see -- we came home and we went to bed and --

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yeah, we didn't see one another, you know, that much.

JENNIFER EGAN: Right. Um. Oh. Oh, yeah. Do you have any memory of -- you know, 85:00I'm just thinking of how most offices are, there's gossip, people talk about each other sometimes. Do you have any sense of that part of -- of your lives there?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Not really. Mostly -- only two women that know -- mostly men, men don't. [laughter] And they were --

JENNIFER EGAN: Right. And how -- how did the men act towards you both?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Oh, they were nice, you know.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: They were very nice.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yeah. It wasn't like, "You're taking my job," or anything like that.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: No. They knew we were just filling in. You know.

JENNIFER EGAN: And yet it must have been a real change for them, to be working so closely with women.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yes.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: And some of the men were just temporary too. They just got -- you know, they were laid off after the war, too. So, you know, they weren't -- they weren't career -- you know.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Uh, Freddy wasn't laid off, was he?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: I don't know.

JENNIFER EGAN: Did you ever have a sense that --

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Was he laid off?

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: My father?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yes.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: Um -- Maureen Kennedy again. Um, I believe he, he was. Yeah. He did not stay on after the war; he wasn't there [inaudible].

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Oh.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: They let you go, you know, like, you knew you were leaving, and just when that day came, you left and you didn't go back.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: Yeah, he did not -- he did not stay, because I remember him going into other jobs, when I was young. Seven, maybe six, seven years old, he was already going into another job.

JENNIFER EGAN: So, um, did you ever feel an awkwardness that the men might have felt working with these women, or that they were -- it was taking them awhile to get used to it, or any of that?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Not really. I mean, they were, you know.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Because there were men where you were going. And they 87:00didn't serve in the war, you know. Yeah.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: This is Maureen again, and I know my mom had a concern that my father would be resented by people, um, who thought he should be in the war, and he was not. He had -- I was his third child, I was born in June '42, I was born after Pearl Harbor, just after Pearl Harbor -- she was pregnant when Pearl Harbor happened. But she had expressed that to me more than once, she -- when I got older, that she was concerned that, uh, they would resent that he was not in the war, he had -- he was able to stay in, uh, in the Navy Yard.

JENNIFER EGAN: And do you think that that ended up being true?

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: I don't think so. I can't say I ever saw any, um, evidence of that from neighbors anybody, no. I didn't see that it was true.

JENNIFER EGAN: Did he work with women as well, in the, during the war, at the Navy Yard? Do you know?

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: I would think that-- He was a paymaster, so I would think he probably did work with women as well.

JENNIFER EGAN: In the office --

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: Yes.

JENNIFER EGAN: -- capacity. But you don't know for sure.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: No. And he brought applications home to two women, so I --

JENNIFER EGAN: Right. Um, but do you have any sense of him seeing these two at all at the yard, or anything like that?

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: I was too old to remember it, and [inaudible].

JENNIFER EGAN: Right. Um, okay. Sady, think about if you -- if there are some stones I'm leaving unturned. There's one question that keeps slipping my mind, and I'm desperate to find it again. Um. Oh, I guess one question I have is did you -- how did you feel about working there? I mean, this was -- had you -- was this something that, um -- did it feel special to you?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: I thought it was -- number one, you made more money. [laughter] The job I left, I was getting like fourteen dollars a week, so.

JENNIFER EGAN: And what about at the Navy Yard?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: I think -- I'm not -- I don't know -- getting like --

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Fifty-four dollars?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: I was going to say forty-two or something, you know, around forty --

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: I think we started out with fifty-four.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Maybe, yeah, I don't know.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: And that was double.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Of course, that was a factor, you know.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: I will also say, I always had the sense that my father made good money in the Navy Yard, and when he left, he went to lower paying positions.

JENNIFER EGAN: Okay. Um, do you remember -- I know that there -- and you both have mentioned it too, a kind of complicated hierarchy at the Yard of what level of the job that you were -- I know that it was first class, second class -- do you remember whether you were promoted, or what your titles and promotions were at all?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: No, I went in and one level and just, you know --

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Well, the only thing we ever got was a raise, you know, a few dollars for a raise, and that was it.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: But I mean, you didn't have a special title or anything.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: No.

JENNIFER EGAN: And do you remember, um, how many raises you got over those 90:00years, how different your salary was by the end?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Mm... no. No.

JENNIFER EGAN: But there was a sense that the pay was better.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Oh, yes.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yes. Oh, definitely, it was better. It, uh, it was double what I was making in the insurance company, you know.

JENNIFER EGAN: And what about the feeling of, of participating in the war effort? Did that mean anything to you?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Oh, sure.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Sure.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Patriotic. [laughter]

JENNIFER EGAN: How did you feel about it?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Well, it, you know --

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Well, we figured our brothers were doing it, so we had to do it, because we were staying home.

JENNIFER EGAN: Did you, um, did your experience working in the Navy Yard change the kind of -- change your -- or affect your expectations of what kind of work you could do after that?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Well, like I said, I did mostly office work. So that's -- you know, I went -- my next job was office, working in an office.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: That's what mine was.

JENNIFER EGAN: So you ended up sticking with the --

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Office -- staying with the office. We went to -- I went to Girls Commercial High School, and that was prepared you, you know -- typing and stenography and stuff.

JENNIFER EGAN: Um, Sady, do you have some questions that I'm missing here?

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah, I have a couple sort of follow-up that I was taking notes, so they might bounce around a bit, if that's okay.

JENNIFER EGAN: And I might have more, I just need to collect my thoughts.

SADY SULLIVAN: Sure. Actually, I -- one of them was what high school you both went to. You went to Girls Commercial?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Girls Commercial.

SADY SULLIVAN: And did you as well?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Uh, I went to Manual Training High School.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: And --

SADY SULLIVAN: Where was that?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: That was, um, a half a block away from our house. So. 92:00[laughter] So we lived on Fifth Street, and that was above Sixth Avenue. And, uh, that was on Seventh Avenue. So, uh, it was a whole square thing or something.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: This is Maureen again. I'm just going to clarify what Aunt Mary was saying.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: What?

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: I'm just to clarify that Manual Training was on Fifth Street -- actually between Fourth and Fifth Street on Seventh Avenue --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah, Seventh Avenue.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: And it's been changed to John Jay. Do you know John Jay [inaudible]?

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, yeah.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Oh, yes. I forgot about that changing to John Jay.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Um, and so how did -- how did you meet, and, or how did you meet your brother?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Well, he had a friend that lived a couple -- on my street, a couple of houses down. And they were friends, and that's how I met 93:00him. It all, you know, it all --

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: I'm going to mention something here, we'll mention here too, Aunt, Aunt [inaudible], that they used to live up in your neighborhood.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Right.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: The Hannigans were up -- 18th Street, is that where you were?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: 19th.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: 19th Street. And they were up on --

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Eighth Avenue and 17th.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: And I think they were in that neighborhood. You met Uncle Johnny when he was up there, right? So was he in --

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yeah, he lived in -- I think they did, uh -- well, he used to go with Billy Hackett [phonetic]. [laughter]

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Didn't we live on 20th Street?

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: Was -- was he on Fifth Street when you met, or was he already --

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: No, no.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: He was up on 19th Avenue, 18th Street. Okay. So they had lived in the same neighborhood before the Hannigans moved to Fifth Street.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Moving on up.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: When mother bought the house. Ahem.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, so you moved when your family bought a house up there.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah. It was right down half a block away from the high school.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And where were your parents born?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Ireland.

SADY SULLIVAN: Both of your parents were born in Ireland?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Mm-hmm.

SADY SULLIVAN: And how about you?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: My father was born in Italy, and my mother in Brooklyn.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. And where were your mother's parents from?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Uh... England and, uh, Copenhagen. Denmark, I guess -- yeah, Denmark.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Um, you described using, with the way the micrometer -- what did that look like, that tool?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Um, it looked like, uh... it was shaped like this, you know, and had a -- almost like a vice, uh, like if you put something down and you tighten -- but it was like that, and then you had to put that around, and it 95:00would see how many points or whatever it was -- well, now I forget. But it was like a measuring, uh -- oh, something like this, that's what it was. There, and then you'd tighten something here, and then --

SADY SULLIVAN: And it would squish down?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Right.

SADY SULLIVAN: And was that something -- was that a tool that everybody had their own? Like did you have your own?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yeah, oh no, you had your own, because you had to measure --

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Oh, thank you.

JENNIFER EGAN: No problem.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: You had to, you know, keep measuring, make sure that it was -- because some feel thicker than others. Um...

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. And so would that tool -- would you keep that in your locker, or did it stay with --

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: It stayed by the machine.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, okay.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Again, night shifts, and -- you know, the different, uh, shifts.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Was there other tools that you used or needed?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: No, not really. Oh, maybe like something just to brush 96:00away the shavings.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And that -- all of that would be kept at the work station?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Right.

SADY SULLIVAN: Um, and what about, what about Sands Street, did you ever hang out --

JENNIFER EGAN: Oh, that was my question that I keep forgetting! [laughter] Thank you.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Well, Sands Street, I think it went this -- I don't know -- well, they had, uh, mostly stores, like restaurants and, uh, bars, you know, regular Navy --

SADY SULLIVAN: Was it a good place to hang out?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: No. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: Why not?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Well, there was too many sailors. [laughter] It was -- you know, it was, uh, not a nice neighborhood.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So did -- did you feel as a woman that it was not a place that you could --?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Oh, yeah, well, you know, we just got off the bus and then into the Navy Yard. It -- you know, it was, uh, uh, just a -- just not a 97:00place to hang out in.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. How was it when you'd be walking in the yard? Um, would the men working in the yard, would they, you know -- catcalls or watching you or anything like that?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: No, not really. You know. They were all busy, you know.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah. So it was comfortable?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yeah. A couple times, they would whistle. Not at me, of course. [laughter] But like any work, you know, any workplace.

SADY SULLIVAN: And where were most of the people that you met, um, were they from Brooklyn, the people working there?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yeah, most of them, you know, from Brooklyn.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. From any neighborhoods in particular?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Well, they got Flatbush, you know, different, uh -- no one that lived like right in my vicinity.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Ahem. But some of them lived in the Bronx.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Was that -- did that seem like a long way to come from?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: You know, like, it's a good, uh, half hour, three-quarters of an hour, you know.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Um -- oh, the flag-raising that you mentioned. Was that something -- what -- did that happen at a certain time every day?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yeah, every day.

SADY SULLIVAN: And was that for the civilian people working, or was it just the Navy people?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Well, it was for everybody.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: You know, anybody walking in, you had to stop and they had to salute, and, uh, once the flag was up, then you could continue.

SADY SULLIVAN: And where was -- was there one main central flag?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yeah, well, this was right at the gate.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Oh, so they would raise the flag at the gate.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Right.

SADY SULLIVAN: And the Marines would do that?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yeah. Like I say, they would inspect your packages too every day when you walked in.

SADY SULLIVAN: Right, right. And did they keep doing that? You said you knew one 99:00of the guards; would they still inspect your stuff --

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Oh, yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: -- even if it was someone you knew?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Oh, yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so was that -- did that get crowded?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: No, they -- you know, you'd just open your bag and they'd look and then you'd go right in.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. And did you have an idea of why they were doing that?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Oh, you had to show your badge, too, you had an identification.

SADY SULLIVAN: Did it -- was it a photo badge?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: It was, uh, just a little tag, you know, around your neck.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And everybody had those?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: What were they looking for when they were looking -- looking through your stuff before you got let in?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Well, make sure they weren't, uh, a spy or something. [laughter] Terrorist. And make sure you're going out, you didn't take anything with you, you know. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: Uh-huh. Um, and so your pay -- you were living with your -- were you living with your parents or you were married then?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: No, I was -- I was living with my parents even after I got married, because he had to go back -- you know, he was still in service.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. So did you get to keep your pay, or did you -- what did you do with the money you made at the Navy Yard?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Oh, I kept it. I gave my mother I think ten dollars or something. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, and, so some of the ships that you -- um, were coming in for repair, were those war-damaged?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Well, I guess I don't know whether they were war-damaged; they just needed, you know, different parts. Some of them were new. Some, uh -- well, I guess they were just keeping maintenance work on them, yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. So did you get -- was there, um -- did news ever travel through the Yard about ships coming in that had been damaged in the war?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Not really, you know. They didn't -- they just, you know, needed the parts. They didn't mention if they were damaged or what, you know.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Did you feel like, um, working in the Yard, that you could get a better sense of the -- what was happening overseas?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Well, no. You didn't -- you know, I -- I don't think, you know, that, uh, that you would know that. Ahem. You wouldn't have any more knowledge than, ahem, anybody else, you know. They just come in for, as I said, mostly maintenance work.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And what about when there was news? Um, were you -- because you were there when the war ended, right?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yes, mm-hmm.

SADY SULLIVAN: So do you remember how that -- how did that news spread in the Yard?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Oh, well, you know, everybody -- they heard about it, and everybody was happy.

SADY SULLIVAN: So it's sort of -- like word of mouth --

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: -- or was there like an announcement, a way to make an announcement?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: No, it was word of mouth.

JENNIFER EGAN: I'm going to jump in with an additional question, that's a good -- good question. Did people come out of their buildings? What physically happened when that news hit, came to the Yard?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: I don't know. I guess that, ahem, everybody was happy. [laughter] I don't remember any big, uh, you know, big, uh, to-do.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: Was there excitement back in the neighborhood when you got home? Was there excitement back in the neighborhood when you got home --?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Oh, yeah, you know. Block parties and...

JENNIFER EGAN: I have a couple more when you're done, Sady.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Um, so the -- the working conditions, were you, were you -- when you were in the offices, was it standing, moving around? Or were you sitting at --

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Well, you know, you sit and move; you can move around too.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Ahem. You weren't confined to your -- you know, you could get up and walk around.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Um, yeah, I think that's --

JENNIFER EGAN: Did you have a time-card, do you recall?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yeah.

JENNIFER EGAN: And how did that work? What did you do with that, where?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Well, as you went into the building, in side, the time clock was there, you know, and you would punch --

JENNIFER EGAN: So nothing happened with that at the gate. That was in your actual office?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yes.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yeah, not at the gate.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: I mean, they're the ones that paid us, right? So they figured out how many hours and such we had. And then they paid us.

JENNIFER EGAN: Do you recall any kind of cafeteria space nearby where you worked? A place to buy -- you mentioned -- one of you mentioned that there were 104:00lunch stands, maybe, sandwiches...

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yeah, I think there was a cafeteria, but not in our building.

JENNIFER EGAN: Did either of you ever have occasion to go to an infirmary or to the hospital? You mentioned that you fainted; did you get some medical attention?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: [laughter]

JENNIFER EGAN: Where did you go for that?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: They had a regular, uh, spot, for, you know, where they had nurses and stuff.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Well, they had -- the, the Naval hospital was right there too.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: St. Alban's, the Naval --

JENNIFER EGAN: Do you remember if you went there, to the hospital?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: No, I don't think I went to the hospital.

JENNIFER EGAN: But did you go somewhere away from your office for treatment?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yes, yeah. And they -- you know, they -- they watched me for a couple hours or something, and see if I had another fit.

JENNIFER EGAN: And it was just -- it was not a seizure; it was just fainting.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yes.

JENNIFER EGAN: Okay. Um, do you -- do you think it was brought on by the work of the -- of the welding, or --?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: No. Because I had welded, you know, for quite a few days and such, and never happened before. Never happened again.

JENNIFER EGAN: Right. But I thought you had said you actually had fainted before.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Oh, I did at home and stuff --

JENNIFER EGAN: I see.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: -- things like that,in school and stuff.

JENNIFER EGAN: I see. And, um, Mary, you mentioned that you, of course, being -- accounting, for moneys and parts on ships, you knew what ship you were dealing with. But, Anne, as you were, um, doing your -- both your lathe work and your office work, did you know what ship these sleeves pertained to, or these tags, as you were tagging things?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Uh, well, when I was working on the sleeves, I didn't. 106:00But, uh, in the, uh -- they would have a ship, but I don't remember what ships they were.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm. But you did know at the time.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yes. At the time, [inaudible].

JENNIFER EGAN: And do you remember what your -- what you were called when you were in that office? Mary's guessing that she was a, a bookkeeper or an accountant. What was your -- what was your -- what was the role that you were playing in that office? Do you remember?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Well, like I say, it was supposed to be machine, you know, machinist. But you know, I was -- you know.

JENNIFER EGAN: So you were still a machinist.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Machinist, yeah.

JENNIFER EGAN: But just doing the office part.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Right.

JENNIFER EGAN: Okay. And how -- did you both end up continuing to work after the Navy Yard?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yes.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: I did.

JENNIFER EGAN: And what kinds of things did you do?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: I did bookkeeping and such. And I left before I was let go.

JENNIFER EGAN: Hmm. And you mentioned that you went -- you did some phone work 107:00at the -- at a company.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah. And Debbie, uh, and -- not Debbie --

DEBBIE HOGAN RUSS: I'm not that old Ma.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: No.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: Julie? Julie? Aunt Julie?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: I always call her Debbie.

DEBBIE HOGAN RUSS: Aunt Julie?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah. But, uh, it was not, um, Aunt Julie had this job, and I went to -- to work with them. And he was at our wedding, him and his wife.

JENNIFER EGAN: And did you stay -- did you continue to work as you were raising your children?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Uh, yes, for a while. And then I moved out to, uh, the lake.

JENNIFER EGAN: Out here.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah. And, uh, because I left Fifth Street, and, uh -- oh, I forget.

DEBBIE HOGAN RUSS: Oh excuse me, Debbie Russ. Did you ask when she moved out here?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Did I continue to work?

JENNIFER EGAN: I just asked where she continued to work as she was raising her children.

DEBBIE HOGAN RUSS: She went to work for [inaudible] in Manhattan, and we lived on 11th Street, and she went to work before I started school. So that would have been '54, 1954, 1955.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Mm-hmm. She went to Saint Thomas'.

DEBBIE HOGAN RUSS: She went -- she went to work.

JENNIFER EGAN: And this is 11th Street in Manhattan?

DEBBIE HOGAN RUSS: In Brooklyn.

JENNIFER EGAN: In Brooklyn, okay.

DEBBIE HOGAN RUSS: Between, what was that, between Fifth and Sixth? 389 11th Street. And she worked at the bank, again in accounting. She was upstairs. She did the, uh, book adjustments. Had to write the books or whatever you call it. Never -- never had to balance a checkbook, I wouldn't know. [laughter]

JENNIFER EGAN: So when did you move out here?

DEBBIE HOGAN RUSS: 1958.

JENNIFER EGAN: Okay. And, Anne, what about you? What -- what -- what was your work life after the, um -- ?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Well, I went -- it was always office work, I went to work in the Pilgrim Laundry.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Oh, yes.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: In the claims department.

JENNIFER EGAN: Pilgrim -- ?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Laundry.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Pilgrim Laundry.

JENNIFER EGAN: Laundry. Okay.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: A good showing of the Hannigans.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm. And how long -- did you continue doing that for very long?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Well, I worked there until, uh, Ruth-Anne was born. When were you born, '47?

RUTH-ANNE: Yes.

JENNIFER EGAN: And then you stopped working at that point?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Right, mm-hmm.

JENNIFER EGAN: And when did you move out here?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Well, her mother-in-law always had a place.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Uh, '55. [laughter] Oh, you were five. Uh, we used to 110:00come out in the summer all the time. Since I'm eighteen years old, we'd been coming out to the lake. Then we moved out permanently, uh --

RUTH-ANNE: '52.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: '52?

JENNIFER EGAN: Okay.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: '52. [laughter] That's why I had children, so they could remember. [laughter]

JENNIFER EGAN: How many kids did you each have?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: I had three.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: I had three. Not like my mother. Six.

JENNIFER EGAN: [laughter] Uh, let's see. Okay. I think I have. I think that's -- is there anything else that either one of you would like to add, or anyone here, that you think is important that we have not touched on with our questions? Or even something unimportant?

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: This is Maureen again. How about just a little bit about their husbands? Because while they were busy at the Navy Yard, the two fellows were over fighting the war.

JENNIFER EGAN: Sure.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: And Uncle Joe was a Navy hero, and Uncle Johnny was a soldier. The only stories I ever heard about Uncle Johnny were all about the parties he went to. [laughter]

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Uncle Tommy was a soldier too.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: He was in the Army.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: He was in the Army. And, you know, so I always felt that was pretty interesting, that they were both here in the Navy Yard, and the fellows were both overseas fighting the war.

JENNIFER EGAN: And they were both with the Navy?

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: No. Joe -- Joe Hogan was with the Navy.

JENNIFER EGAN: Okay.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: And Johnny Hannigan --

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: He was in the Navy before I even started going out with him.

JENNIFER EGAN: Okay.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: And Johnny was in the Army.

JENNIFER EGAN: Army. Okay.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: He used to deliver our groceries. You know.

JENNIFER EGAN: That's how you met him?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah. He lived across the street.

JENNIFER EGAN: Oh, that's great.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah. We used to sit on the stoop.

JENNIFER EGAN: And Johnny stayed with -- I'm sorry, Joe stayed with the Navy after the war.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Oh, yeah. She was born on a naval air base.

JENNIFER EGAN: And how long was he, uh, in active duty?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Eight years.

JENNIFER EGAN: After the war.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Eight years.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: I think eight years total.

JENNIFER EGAN: Eight years total.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Total.

JENNIFER EGAN: Okay. And what about Johnny?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Six and two.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: No, he didn't stay -- you know, he, uh, got out in '45, '46. [laughter]

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: I think most of them got out in '45. You know?

JENNIFER EGAN: Now --

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: And he went to work for the Pilgrim Laundry. [laughter]

JENNIFER EGAN: Oh, really? [laughter] So it was family -- a family business.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: And Peggy worked there, that's a sister of ours.

SADY SULLIVAN: Where was that?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Uh, in Brooklyn and, uh, 10th Avenue --

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: 11th Avenue?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: -- and Prospect Avenue.

JENNIFER EGAN: Um. I just lost my question again. Uh.

SADY SULLIVAN: I have -- I have a question. How did you -- did you -- when they were overseas, were you able to communicate with your -- they were your fiancés at that time, right?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yeah. Oh, yeah, you know.

SADY SULLIVAN: How did you communicate?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Just letters.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Mail. We wrote letters.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Would you get the letters at home? Or did you ever get letters when you were at the Navy Yard?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: No, at home.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: No.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: I lived, you know, I lived home.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: And, uh, they'd be v-mail, not v-mail -- they used to call it --

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: See, I -- I traveled with Joe, you know. So

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Well, we'd get, you know -- could correspond.

JENNIFER EGAN: Were most of the -- you mentioned that you worked with women. 114:00Some of them had a lot of children, and your friend Ruth had one child. Uh, but Ruth's husband was not in the service.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: No.

JENNIFER EGAN: Were most of these women's husbands -- the ones that you worked with -- in the service?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yes. Most of them -- at that time, everybody we knew was in the service, you know.

JENNIFER EGAN: And my last question -- um, did you find -- I mean, Maureen, you obviously know about a lot of this already, some from your dad -- did these stories of having worked in the Navy Yard come up over the years? Was it something that you ended up talking about very much?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: No. I haven't talked about it in thirty years. [laughter]

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: That's why you gotta remember. [laughter] Well, I kept in touch with Ruth for a while, and then it kind of -- she lived in the Bronx, and then kind of drifted apart after a while, you now.

JENNIFER EGAN: Did she leave the Yard at the same time you did --

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yeah.

JENNIFER EGAN: -- after the war?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yeah, most of them were temporary, you know.

JENNIFER EGAN: And did you see her a little bit after that?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yes. But, uh, she lived up in the Bronx, so it wasn't that -- you know.

JENNIFER EGAN: And how long has it been since you've communicated with her, do you think?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Oh, gosh. [laughter] Thirty years, more. [laughter] It was only a couple of years after we left that, you know, we --

JENNIFER EGAN: Right, that you --

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: That we, uh, in the beginning, you know [inaudible].

JENNIFER EGAN: Yeah. Anything else anyone wants to add?

DEBBIE HOGAN RUSS: I -- oh, I'm sorry. Uh, Debbie Russ. Um, I was wondering when the war ended, what happened as far as building the ships, like -- did the men come back, were the women let go completely and the men returned to working?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Oh, yeah. I imagine so, yeah.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah. They had jobs to come back to.

DEBBIE HOGAN RUSS: So you were more -- you had to go find other employment.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah.

RUTH-ANNE: And this is Ruth-Anne, um, Anne Hannigan's daughter. And you asked before about the stories, in the Brooklyn, the Navy Yard -- I remember growing up, it wasn't my aunts discussing the Brooklyn Navy Yard, but my uncles, when they got together, would always talk about their war experiences. For years -- for the rest of, almost, their lives. And I can remember as a kid, on TV, [inaudible], remember that show? My father watched it, every episode of it, and it was something thing for them was, um, such a traumatic experience that almost the way women will talk about, um, their birth, giving birth experiences when they get together, my uncles would, on both sides of the family, they'd talk about their war experiences and what part of Europe they were in and, um, and 117:00you never did hear the women talk about their working -- their part in it, in the Navy Yard. But the men certainly did. And, um, then they got involved in, like, you know, my grandfather was a Legion -- they still connected to the military, even years after the war was over. Where I don't know of any kind of an organization, you know, was there something for the women who worked in the Navy Yard, like --

JENNIFER EGAN: Not that I know of.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: -- some association that these women could, um, connect with?

JENNIFER EGAN: We wish there had been, because we'd be calling them right now. [laughter]

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Probably get more information. [laughter]

JENNIFER EGAN: Yeah, I know, it would be great, a way to connect to people.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: This is Maureen again, and I will add pretty much the same thing. The only thing I know about the Navy Yard is what I told you, and that's very little. My father worked there, and I didn't know he got the applications for my aunts -- my aunt told me that when I spoke to her; I knew 118:00that my aunts worked there. Um, what they did there, I didn't know, even until this came up, that they both were actually Rosie the Riveters. I didn't know that. I assumed they did office work. So I really -- it was not talked about. And our family got together a lot when we were growing up, even to this day, I mean, we get together. But Ruth-Anne's right, it was not talked about.

DEBBIE HOGAN RUSS I knew my mother was a welder.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: I didn't know that. I was, um, very delighted that this came up, because I do believe they both deserve to be honored, and the other women also. And I'm even choked up, I can't even believe I'm choked up about it. But I really, really feel it's such a special thing, and it's -- it's a good thing that's happening, and I'm delighted. And I'm proud of both of you --

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Oh, thank you. [laughter]

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: -- that you've handled yourselves so beautifully, you remembered much more than you thought you would --

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: [laughter]

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: -- and, and I'm proud of you ladies too for doing this work, I think it's fabulous. It's just like, it's, you know, it's well overdue.

JENNIFER EGAN: Thank you. Well, if you hear of anyone else through the grapevine 119:00who worked there, we would love to come and talk to them as well. We really want to hear everyone's stories.

SHEILA ANNE KENNEDY DUGAN: And I would just like to add -- I'm Sheila Anne Kennedy Dugan -- and I would just like to add that I always was very proud of my father for being associated with the Brooklyn Navy Yard. I never felt he got the due that was due for him. I always knew that -- it was always like special, like a real family thing. It's hard to explain. It's like, this is our history to us, this is our family history. And the word "Navy" always had this special meaning to it. And then I always liked the Navy, and then I ended up marrying someone who died in the Navy. My son was in the Navy, and before his father was in the Navy. The Navy always had a very special meaning to me, and like Maureen was saying, until this came up, I didn't know that my father was a paymaster at the Navy Yard, and that kind of gave him exemption from going into the service, and that to me was like putting a part of the puzzle together, that missing piece. I 120:00didn't need the missing piece because I was proud of him anyway, but it just, just gave to me such a nice internal feeling, and like my sister said, it's just -- it's just as very special, special, special thing, and I'm proud of both [inaudible] because you're sharing this history with us.

JENNIFER EGAN: I wish your dad were here so we could interview him.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: And I will also add -- it's Maureen again -- and Sheila's husband was in the Navy during the Vietnam War. Anne's husband has served in the Air Force. And they both stayed in the Reserves, they were both in the Reserves a very long time. My own husband was in Germany for two years, because when he was younger, that's what they did, they were drafted; there was no war going on, but he served two years over there. I'm sure Joe was -- young Joe was in the service, um --

SHEILA ANNE KENNEDY DUGAN: Nuclear submarines for six years.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: Six years. So, there's -- it just -- you know, it just goes on and on and on in the family. And her son was in the Navy also.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: And also, to add about the flag at 8:00, there's a rule 121:00about the flag. You raise the flag at sunrise, I believe, and you have to take it down at sunset. So that explains -- that might explain a little bit about the dynamics of the flag.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, thank you all. It's been totally fascinating. We really appreciate -- I know it takes a lot of effort to sit there and talk about your past for that long. So I appreciate you kind of bearing with us as we pushed for more and more details.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: I wish we knew more.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Well, we never even thought of it. [laughter]

JENNIFER EGAN: Well, you're thinking of it now, so. (laughter) All right.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: But I feel that -- I, I think the welders -- you weren't on the machine that much, you were only in it for one month, so you can't, you know, really claim, uh --

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: Sure you can.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: You know

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: Yes you can. [laughter]

JENNIFER EGAN: Well, but it sounds like you were part of the same operation.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Right.

JENNIFER EGAN: You weren't actually on the machine, but you were dealing with the equipment in other ways. Just by your own description. So. Great.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: I have -- I have a card inside too, and it, it just so happens, it was from Sheila's birthday, which was this month, and there's a little mention there about Rosie the Riveter, it's one of these cards that tells you all the things that happened the year you were born, and the year that Sheila was born is the year that, um, a picture of Rosie Riveter was done by Norman Rockwell for the Saturday Evening Post, it was there, it tells when it was there, you know, and that picture was on the cover. And I do have the picture inside, which I would be glad to show you.

JENNIFER EGAN: Great. Yeah, any -- any pictures --

DEBBIE HOGAN RUSS: When was that, Sheila?

SHEILA ANNE KENNEDY DUGAN: 1943.

JENNIFER EGAN: Do you have any pictures -- I'm so curious to see what you both looked like at that time.

DEBBIE HOGAN RUSS: I brought just a few of my mother's wedding pictures. That -- they're small --

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I -- I have some family pictures I can bring out that show 123:00Aunt Mary.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: And actually, I think -- what you said reminded me -- there's a museum in, um --

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Oh, my God --

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: I've got a picture, I think.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: -- Stony Brook museum. In Stony Brook.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:: I would just like to answer that question. Probably they look absolutely gorgeous, just as beautiful as they are now.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: [laughter]

JENNIFER EGAN: I have no doubt of it.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Oh, my. [laughter]

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Did good, huh? [laughter]

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yeah. [laughter]

JENNIFER EGAN: These are really lovely.

DEBBIE HOGAN RUSS: Right? Absolutely gorgeous.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Right?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: What's gorgeous?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: You.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: [laughter]

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: She seconds it.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: You've got to be thinking of some -- somebody else. Yes, the baby here. [laughter] Baby here. Mwah. [laughter]

[inaudible]

JENNIFER EGAN: Wow.

DEBBIE HOGAN RUSS: You know, I didn't bring that picture, because it was very tiny.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: What picture?

DEBBIE HOGAN RUSS: The -- of Daddy and the, the raft, the, um --

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Oh --

DEBBIE HOGAN RUSS: It was because -- I think it was the plane malfunction. They were ferrying planes from the United States to Africa. They were, um --

JENNIFER EGAN: Wow.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: DA's orders.

DEBBIE HOGAN RUSS: They crashed, but they all survived, but they were on the life raft for five days. And --

JENNIFER EGAN: Wow.

DEBBIE HOGAN RUSS: -- a plane in another transport spotted them, ahem, and they were supposed to -- they radio, radio, radioed in the coordinates, and they were given orders to continue on.

JENNIFER EGAN: Wow.

DEBBIE HOGAN RUSS: And the captain, or the pilot, whatever his rank is, uh, refused. He said, "You'll -- it will take you too long by the time a ship comes here to spot it." So they circled the, the life raft for hours, until the ship 125:00came and, and, and -- and sighted them. And even in their plane, they lost sight of the raft from time to time. And there's a tiny -- there's a picture, and of course the raft is a speck, but you can see a flare that was shot out next to it. And they were there five days. The plane was --

JENNIFER EGAN: Boy, they were lucky.

DEBBIE HOGAN RUSS: The plane was in flames; my father had all his hair on his head, everything burned. But, um, they, they survived it, they, they got -- they got everybody to the raft, and --

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yup. They all survived.

DEBBIE HOGAN RUSS: Five days. And they didn't -- hadn't even touched the rations yet, because they didn't know how long they would be there, so they didn't eat anything

JENNIFER EGAN: Wow. That's amazing.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: [inaudible] eat anything.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Oh that's a -- putting baby sea scallops. [laughter]

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: A town not too far from us is Stony Brook.

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: They have a museum, and I believe it's called the Long Island Museum -- it used to be called the Stony Brook Museum, but they changed 126:00it. And not a few months back, I think -- they had an exhibit, and I think it had to do with, um --

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Oh, my God --

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I think it was World War II, and I know they had posters up -- that picture that Maureen's talking about, Rosie the Riveter?

JENNIFER EGAN: Mm-hmm.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: And I think -- so if you could look at -- it's Long Island Museum, it's in Stony Brook, New York.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Got my hair up again, huh?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: So now, the Long Island Museum, at Stony Brook or something. They might be able to give you some information about this exhibit that they had --

JENNIFER EGAN: Interesting.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: -- not too long ago.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: It's a roof.

JENNIFER EGAN: That's a great tip, thank you.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: How did Nana get on the roof?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: That -- I love that picture.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I'm just going to show you some of these. Um, this is --

Aunt Mary right here. Mary and Julie, that's them.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: That's my younger sister. She -- she had died.

DEBBIE HOGAN RUSS: But I was thinking if I contacted the Navy I might could get a picture --

JENNIFER EGAN: Wait, are you -- are you in this picture?

DEBBIE HOGAN RUSS: -- of the raft.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah.

JENNIFER EGAN: Oh, wow. There's 413.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yup. That's my mother and grandmother in the back, and Mary and Julie there.

DEBBIE HOGAN RUSS: Because the picture was stamped on the back, official [inaudible] so I don't know how my father ended up with the picture.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: That's one of my favorites.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Oh, this is my favorite.

JENNIFER EGAN: Where is this?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: At camp.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: I think that's on a roof of a house where they lived.

JENNIFER EGAN: Oh, I see.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: I was going through --

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: But what I do have -- see, I have some that --

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: That's my mother.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Somebody else could tell me if that's a Navy Yard ship, I have no idea. But it could be.

JENNIFER EGAN: It looks small to me.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Okay.

JENNIFER EGAN: But I have no idea.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Did we have the other one here of -- let me see something -- okay.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: No.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I believe those were Dan's uniforms.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: Yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: That's not a Navy Yard ship, okay.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: No.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I had a picture here of Aunt Sissy too when was younger, this one --

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: They were big battleships.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: That's Anne and Johnny sitting next to her. That's what she looked like back in the day.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: -- being recognized after forty and fifty years. That's what it's all about.

SADY SULLIVAN: That's great.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: This is my mother and father --

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Aw, look who has the baby now. [laughter]

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: And I -- I don't know if that could be down at the Navy Yard also, because you see, there is water behind them. And this sister said that she went to the christening of one of the ships, so I -- of the Missouri, actually.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: [laughter]

JENNIFER EGAN: That's the one where, uh --

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Do you have children?

SADY SULLIVAN: No.

JENNIFER EGAN: -- Truman's daughter --

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Christened. They, uh, signed the peace treaty on there.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: On the Missouri they signed the peace treaty -- ?

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: She's a good baby. Does she --

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yup. And -- and they were aboard too.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: -- is she always this good, the baby?

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: And, uh, then they just signed some -- something else on it. I forget.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I don't know. I don't -- I don't -- Did I show you the big one of Nana? The big one of Nana on 413? Yeah, I did. But that's just some of 129:00the pictures that we have.

JENNIFER EGAN: That's great. Oh, it's so fun to see them.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I always am working on my picture project.

JENNIFER EGAN: Yeah, me too. It's never ending.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: No

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: No. The younger you start, the better off you are.

JENNIFER EGAN: I know, don't say that. I'm already seven years behind. [laughter It's one of those projects that you can always say, "I'll do it later." Then at a certain point, you have, you know, thousands of pictures to deal with.

JENNIFER EGAN: I love that picture of your parents.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yup.

JENNIFER EGAN: It's really, really pretty.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yup. I'm fortunate to have quite a few of them that, uh -- my father was a big picture-taker.

JENNIFER EGAN: How long did your father live? How old was he --

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: He was, uh --

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Sixty, I believe, when he died. Yeah, he was sixty years old.

JENNIFER EGAN: Young.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yes. He was young. My mother was in her seventies.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: When did, uh, Uncle Joe die?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: How old was he? He was eighty-three, I think.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: He was -- yeah. No, he wasn't eighty-three. Oh, yes, he 130:00was. He was.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Now, I have plenty of cold-cuts for you if you'd like a sandwich.

JENNIFER EGAN: Oh that's so sweet!

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I have plenty of cold-cuts, they're inside. And you can make yourself a sandwich. If you're in a rush to leave, you can take them on the train, you know? Pack a lunch.

JENNIFER EGAN: That's so sweet.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I have a couple of pictures --

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Whatever, okay.

JENNIFER EGAN: Is there -- you know, I realize we should have taken a card from that taxi driver. Um, is there a taxi company we can call that would get us --

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Lindy's. Do you know if it was Lindy's?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: That was Lindy's. Lindy's is so popular.

JENNIFER EGAN: Yeah, actually, it was Lindy's.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: We can call. We can call Lindy's.

JENNIFER EGAN: And how long do they usually take to come?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Ten.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Well, you tell them -- you know what train you have to make? Do you know the time of the train?

JENNIFER EGAN: Yeah, let me just look again. Uh, 2:11. Let's see.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I'll -- I'll drive them to the railroad, because I've got to go get Brendan.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Okay. All right.

JENNIFER EGAN: You sure?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I'm positive. That's me.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: So what time is it now? It's 1:30, so --

JENNIFER EGAN: Oh, great. Thank you so much.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: So I'm saying you should probably leave here in about fifteen minutes.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I'm getting to -- I'm going to ask them.

JENNIFER EGAN: Okay. Great.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I'd say probably about fifteen minutes. So my suggestion is: you're going to pack a lunch.

JENNIFER EGAN: Okay. Will do. I don't want to cut it close.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Okay. That'll be good.

[inaudible]

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Whose baby is that?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Karen's.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Karen?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Karen. Karen's working. She's not here. That's Pammy holding her.

ANNE MASTRION HANNIGAN: I hope the trip was worthwhile. [laughter]

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Yeah but that's Pammy.

JENNIFER EGAN: Oh very. Absolutely.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Pammy is her -- Pammy is her godmother.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Oh.

SADY SULLIVAN: So could I, um, take some photos of -- of the photos? Is that all right?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Oh, sure. Let's see what we got here. We can get you one of my father by himself.

MARY HANNIGAN HOGAN: Well, it was a pleasure.

JENNIFER EGAN: Oh, thank you so much. We really, really appreciate it. I know it's a lot of effort.

MAUREEN KENNEDY HAWKINS: Let's see who we've got here. This happens to be -- this is Mary. This is Mary, this is Julie. And Mary worked there --

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: When -- is there a date when they feel the museum will be up and open?

JENNIFER EGAN: Um, you know, there probably is. I'm not sure what it is. Um, I can find that out. Maybe I'll find out what I can, and I'll call Maureen and let her know.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Okay. I was just thinking. Because we would plan one of 132:00our whole wonderful train excursions into the city. [laughter]

JENNIFER EGAN: Yeah, we -- it's definitely a few years away, I think, because they just, you know, unveiled the plan, and the mayor came, and there was a press conference by the building, and that was only -- that was last winter. So I, I should -- I'll find out and I'll let Maureen know.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Now can you -- can you get onto the Brooklyn Navy Yard if you go in?