Bernice and Eugene Schwartz

B. SCHWARTZ: -- uh, and brings all the phones to him.

SULLIVAN: OK, great.

B. SCHWARTZ: OK. So you hold on. Uh, oh boy. Hold on. OK. I didn't realize it was one o'clock. OK. Here you are, Gene. Here's one.

E. SCHWARTZ: I don't know where the letter is now.

B. SCHWARTZ: It -- it doesn't matter. But it's right there. Well --

E. SCHWARTZ: And do you have --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- I'll bring you another phone. I'll get another phone.

E. SCHWARTZ: Hello?

SULLIVAN: Hello, Mr. Schwartz! How are you?

E. SCHWARTZ: Oh, for an old man, not too bad.

SULLIVAN: Good.

E. SCHWARTZ: What's that?

SULLIVAN: Uh, so is now still a good time to do the interview?

E. SCHWARTZ: Uh, yes. I -- I -- I -- I'll tell you, I -- I don't hear so well, and we -- we have got these fluky phones here.

SULLIVAN: OK.

E. SCHWARTZ: So I -- I miss things.

SULLIVAN: OK. Um, well, you just let me know if I -- if I need to repeat something.

E. SCHWARTZ: Oh, I certainly will.

SULLIVAN: OK, good.

E. SCHWARTZ: Hold up a minute.

SULLIVAN: OK.

E. SCHWARTZ: [pause] OK.

SULLIVAN: All right. Um, so I am recording this. Is that all right? Do I have your permission to record?

E. SCHWARTZ: Oh, yes. Sure.

SULLIVAN: OK, great. Um, so to -- for the archive, I'll just start by saying today's date. It is March 18, 2010, and I am Sady Sullivan with the Brooklyn Historical Society. And this interview is for the Brooklyn Heights Synagogue Oral History Project. And, um, if you would introduce yourself to the recording?

E. SCHWARTZ: If I would what?

SULLIVAN: Um, it's -- tell us your -- your name and, uh, date of birth for --

E. SCHWARTZ: Oh!

SULLIVAN: -- the recording.

E. SCHWARTZ: [clears throat] Uh, my name is Eugene Schwartz. I was born on [date redacted for privacy] '18. That's [redacted for privacy] nine- 1918.

SULLIVAN: So [redacted for privacy] was your birthday!

E. SCHWARTZ: That's right. We've had a -- a lot of, uh, uh, uh-- anniversaries here: uh, our 57th a- our 57th anniver- wor- wedding anniversary, my wife's date of birth is [date redacted for privacy], one day before mine, so -- and now we have the Synagogue, which is a heck of a lot of [laughter] anniversary parties up -- with -- within one week!

SULLIVAN: That's right! So it was the 50th anniversary of the Synagogue, and your 57th wedding anniversary?

E. SCHWARTZ: That's right.

SULLIVAN: Oh, congratulations!

E. SCHWARTZ: Thank you.

SULLIVAN: Um, and were -- were -- is your wife -- was she also born in 1918?

E. SCHWARTZ: I'm sorry?

SULLIVAN: Is, uh, your wife's year of birth 1918 as well?

B. SCHWARTZ: No.

E. SCHWARTZ: I --

B. SCHWARTZ: Can I get on?

E. SCHWARTZ: -- I don't -- I -- really get what --

B. SCHWARTZ: Hello?

E. SCHWARTZ: -- you're saying.

B. SCHWARTZ: You want to know if I was on, uh, 1918?

SULLIVAN: Yeah. When's your --

B. SCHWARTZ: No. [laughter]

B. SCHWARTZ: Twenty-five.

SULLIVAN: OK. Thank you.

E. SCHWARTZ: All right. OK.

SULLIVAN: Um --

E. SCHWARTZ: I -- I'd be afraid to answer that one, anyway. [laughter]

SULLIVAN: Understand, understand. So my questions, um, I have a few questions about, um -- biographical questions about you, and then, um -- then some questions about the Synagogue.

E. SCHWARTZ: All right.

SULLIVAN: Um, so if --

E. SCHWARTZ: [inaudible]

SULLIVAN: -- we could start, where were you born?

E. SCHWARTZ: I -- I -- I was born in -- I-- I am-- I-- your conversation is hardly heard by me --

B. SCHWARTZ: Aww.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- at this point.

B. SCHWARTZ: So --

E. SCHWARTZ: So w-

B. SCHWARTZ: -- let me answer.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- we have another phone standing by, and Bernice is listening on that one.

SULLIVAN: OK.

B. SCHWARTZ: Can I answer for him?

SULLIVAN: Sure.

B. SCHWARTZ: All right. He was born in Brooklyn, New York.

SULLIVAN: Great. Um, and tell me a little bit about your parents.

E. SCHWARTZ: About what?

B. SCHWARTZ: Your parents.

E. SCHWARTZ: Oh. Uh, my parents, uh, came from, uh, uh, Romania, uh, back in the, uh -- in the 1800s. And so -- but my father came here from Romania i- in, uh, about 19- I mean 1896, and my mother came, uh, a few years later. Uh, my -- and they both adjusted very quickly. My mother came with six sisters, and my father came with, uh, two -- two sisters and two brothers. Two big families, and 5:00they survived. And also, uh, all got along very well, and-- and, uh, uh, did very well, uh, monetarily. Uh, my father became a, uh -- originally, he had a -- a motion picture theater in 19- uh, in, uh, 1908 or 10, one of the first in -- in the city. And, uh, a motion -- uh, as a matter of fact, I -- he had a- an agreement with another theater, uh, four blocks away in Bensonhurst, where, uh, they settled.

SULLIVAN: Oh!

E. SCHWARTZ: And, uh -- and, uh, they used to exchange -- the two theaters used to exchange reels. While one was running the -- the, uh, uh -- this -- the, uh 6:00-- the --

B. SCHWARTZ: Projector?

E. SCHWARTZ: -- uh, one --

B. SCHWARTZ: Projector?

E. SCHWARTZ: -- was -- no. One was running the film, the main film; the other was running the news. And they, uh, ex- exchanged.

B. SCHWARTZ: He had -- he had a bicycle.

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. They had a bicycle. It was my mother's younger brother, and he, uh -- he, uh -- he carried the film both ways.

SULLIVAN: Oh --

E. SCHWARTZ: Isn't that --

SULLIVAN: -- wow!

E. SCHWARTZ: -- interesting?

SULLIVAN: Yeah, that's great.

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. And, uh, there were -- my father had an organ in his theater, and when it -- it was played by, uh, a very -- oh, um, a young man who became prominent, and in Brooklyn, uh, he married, uh, the wife of, uh -- well, uh, I mean, he -- he became fa- fa- became the, uh -- well, I can't think of his -- you know, I have a -- a lot of senior moments. [laughter]

E. SCHWARTZ: I can't think of the name. But the -- the biggest mortuary in -- in Brooklyn, at Park Circle. Uh, you must know that. You have that information.

B. SCHWARTZ: Oh, I --

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: -- can't --

E. SCHWARTZ: But --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- think of --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- anyway, he was --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- I can't think of it, either.

E. SCHWARTZ: He rose to be, uh, the president of that. So, uh, my father did very, very well. He went in --

B. SCHWARTZ: "Riverside" -- is that the name of it?

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

SULLIVAN: Oh, yes!

E. SCHWARTZ: In Brooklyn and --

B. SCHWARTZ: And Manhattan.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- and Manhattan. Anyway, uh, my father, he got into the insurance business at New York Life, and he became, uh, one of the top producers in that company. New York Life is a big, great company -- best of all. And he, uh, became a prominent agent in that -- i- in that company, and I followed up. After m- my war, world two experience, uh, war experience, I -- I also joined New York 8:00Life. But I could never do as well as my father.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: He was a -- a terrific guy. Anyway, uh --

SULLIVAN: And so did you grow up in Bensonhurst?

B. SCHWARTZ: No.

E. SCHWARTZ: No. And I'm going to -- I was just getting there. I was born in Bensonhurst --

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- on the properties -- it was ve- eventually was a synagogue, and eventually, it became the synagogue on Ocean Parkway, and it was called the "Ocean Parkway Jewish Center." [founded in 1907, 550 Ocean Parkway, Brooklyn] But it -- it started at Dahill and Ditmas, and they had -- on the property, there was a -- a big 12-room house, and my father and mother took that over, and -- and lived there, and -- and all their children were -- were born there. And I was the last, and born there in 1918.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: And we moved from there to Midwood, uh, um -- is it still called "Midwood?"

SULLIVAN: Yes, it is.

E. SCHWARTZ: OK. At Avenue I and East 8th Street.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: And, uh, at a beautiful home there. And that's where we grew up -- I grew up, my brother and two sisters. Father and Mother bought some property in -- uh, right outside of Yorktown, in Katonah [NY]. Are you familiar with Katonah?

SULLIVAN: I sure am.

E. SCHWARTZ: OK. They bought a nice, uh, big estate, uh, 20-some odd acres, and developed it, and my father became a country gentleman.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm!

E. SCHWARTZ: And we had, uh, a sheep, a cow. I -- I myself had a saddle horse. Uh, and, uh, we -- we were there from 1922, and my father died in 19-

B. SCHWARTZ: Fifty-three.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- sixty-three.

B. SCHWARTZ: Fifty-three.

E. SCHWARTZ: So, and my mother --

B. SCHWARTZ: Fifty-

E. SCHWARTZ: -- lived there --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- three.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- for a short while, but the property was eventually sold.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: Uh, and a beautiful sight, right on Amawalk Lake, overlooking the lake -- beautiful.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: So I am really, uh, uh, Brooklyn-born, but I also have a little background of country life.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: Hello?

SULLIVAN: Hello! Yes. Um--

B. SCHWARTZ: Keep listening.

SULLIVAN: So, um --

E. SCHWARTZ: Uh, I'm not getting anything now.

B. SCHWARTZ: All right. She is not talking.

SULLIVAN: Oh! I -- I am here.

B. SCHWARTZ: No.

SULLIVAN: Hello? Can you hear me?

B. SCHWARTZ: Yes.

SULLIVAN: Oh, OK. Good. Um, so --

E. SCHWARTZ: Let me try --

SULLIVAN: -- when did -- when did you two meet? Tell me about how you two met.

B. SCHWARTZ: [laughter] Oh.

B. SCHWARTZ: Uh, we met --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- in -- we --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- met in a --

SULLIVAN: Do you have the --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- uh, an adult --

SULLIVAN: -- other phone?

B. SCHWARTZ: -- resort near, um --

E. SCHWARTZ: I'm getting another phone.

B. SCHWARTZ: -- the Adirondacks? In the Adirondacks.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: And in those years, that's --

E. SCHWARTZ: Thank you.

B. SCHWARTZ: -- the only way you could meet people -- you know, men and --

E. SCHWARTZ: [inaudible]

B. SCHWARTZ: -- women --

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: -- and that.

E. SCHWARTZ: [inaudible]

B. SCHWARTZ: At an adult resort.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: I don't know if they exist anymore. And, um, we met on a tennis court. And, uh, that's how we met.

SULLIVAN: And are you from Brooklyn also?

B. SCHWARTZ: No, no. I'm from [laughter] Jersey City [NJ].

SULLIVAN: Oh-- And so how did you --

B. SCHWARTZ: From --

SULLIVAN: -- um -- how did you decide to -- to live in Brooklyn after --

B. SCHWARTZ: Well, Gene's office was at --

E. SCHWARTZ: [overlapping dialogue; inaudible]

B. SCHWARTZ: -- 26 Court Street --

SULLIVAN: Uh-huh.

B. SCHWARTZ: -- and, um, you know, New York Life, 26 Court Street.

SULLIVAN: Uh-huh.

B. SCHWARTZ: And I came to the office and he said, "Come on, I'll take you for a walk, and you'll m- make up your mind if you like this neighborhood."

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: So we walked around Brooklyn Heights, and I said, "Oh, this is 12:00fine. This is fine. It's, uh, close to Jersey City, and, um, you're in Brooklyn, and -- and we'll do -- this is fine."

E. SCHWARTZ: It was a great transplant --

B. SCHWARTZ: So --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- from Jer- from Jersey City, I'll --

B. SCHWARTZ: So-- [laughter]

E. SCHWARTZ: -- tell you that.

SULLIVAN: [laughter]

B. SCHWARTZ: So, um, um, we, um, couldn't find an apartment, and so we moved into the Bossert Hotel [98 Montague Street, Brooklyn].

SULLIVAN: Yes.

B. SCHWARTZ: And we lived there when the, um -- Dodgers? Is that who it was?

SULLIVAN: Yeah.

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

B. SCHWARTZ: The Do- when the Dodgers were, um, away from playing, you know --

E. SCHWARTZ: And when they were --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- when --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- out of town--

B. SCHWARTZ: -- when they were out of town, we had the room. And --

E. SCHWARTZ: We --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- when they came back --

E. SCHWARTZ: We had to --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- we --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- give it up.

B. SCHWARTZ: -- went up to the country.

SULLIVAN: Wow!

B. SCHWARTZ: We went up -- we went up to Westchester.

E. SCHWARTZ: Wait, I just want to say one thing.

B. SCHWARTZ: To his --

E. SCHWARTZ: Uh --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- parents.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- the -- the two --

B. SCHWARTZ: Two --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- we -- we had the apartment of the two pitchers, Clem Labine and, uh, I forget the other fella's name. And while they were away, we had the apartment. When they came back, uh, they were coming back, and I looked out the window and saw a moving van. [laughter] And, uh, it -- it stopped right on the corner of Montague and --

B. SCHWARTZ: And Hicks.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- and Hicks.

B. SCHWARTZ: And Hicks.

E. SCHWARTZ: And I went over to the --

B. SCHWARTZ: No, because I--

E. SCHWARTZ: Y- yeah. Well, anyway, we went over there, and they said, "There is an apartment available, but not for a while. It'll be upstairs, same apartment that--" So I said, "Well, who is renting it?" And we went to the rental agent over on, uh --

B. SCHWARTZ: We had to walk up some --

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. I -- I --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- rickety steps --

E. SCHWARTZ: I --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- in an old building right next door to, um, the building that's 14:00on the corner of Pierrepont and Court Street.

SULLIVAN: Oh, yes!

B. SCHWARTZ: You know that building.

SULLIVAN: I do.

B. SCHWARTZ: It's right near you.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: And, uh, there was a rickety old building, and the, um, manager -- manager of the apartment house, uh, had an office up there. [laughter] And Gene walked up the steps.

E. SCHWARTZ: I --

B. SCHWARTZ: He --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- had just come --

B. SCHWARTZ: He --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- out of the hospital --

B. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. He had to --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- with a sprained leg. And I --

SULLIVAN: Oh, no!

B. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, the --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- and I hobbled over there --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- yeah --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- with --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- because, oh, geez --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- with a cane --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- they've got an apartment!

E. SCHWARTZ: -- and --

B. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- up the stairs. We were so desperate. And, uh -- and when he, you know, told us the price, I said, "And we'll take it." He says, "You -- but you haven't seen it."

SULLIVAN: [laughter]

E. SCHWARTZ: I said, "I don't have to see it. I saw the one downstairs. It's a duplicate. And the upstairs, on the fifth floor, has to be better than the -- on the first floor." So he says, "Well, you want to rent it now?" I said, "Yes. How 15:00much is it?" He says, "I never rented an apartment" --

B. SCHWARTZ: "Without anybody" --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- "without somebody seeing it first."

SULLIVAN: [laughter]

E. SCHWARTZ: And I --

B. SCHWARTZ: And it was $110.

SULLIVAN: Wow!

E. SCHWARTZ: A hundred and ten --

B. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- dollars per month.

B. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

SULLIVAN: Wow!

E. SCHWARTZ: And we were glad to get it at that price.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: Yes.

E. SCHWARTZ: That's how things have progressed. But I want --

B. SCHWARTZ: Yes.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- wanted to go back a little further, about my history, as I'm a true Brooklynite.

SULLIVAN: Sure.

E. SCHWARTZ: I saw Babe Ruth when he played for the Dodgers hit -- point to the, uh, left field, and, uh, when he got up at bat, pointed to the left field, and then he hit a homer right there. As -- as a Brooklyn Dodger. Do you know that?

SULLIVAN: That's amazing.

E. SCHWARTZ: Do you know that he was a Brooklyn Dodger?

SULLIVAN: I did know that, yes.

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

B. SCHWARTZ: And also --

E. SCHWARTZ: I --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- another thing --

E. SCHWARTZ: I was probably 13 or 14 --

B. SCHWARTZ: And --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- years old.

B. SCHWARTZ: -- and Gene, Gene is a Brooklyn College graduate.

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, I was going to say that. That I was --

B. SCHWARTZ: True --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- very --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- blue --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- familiar --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- Brooklyn.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- I was very familiar with the -- the Heights, and that I belonged to a fellowship at Brooklyn College that had a -- that we had our meeting room, uh, apartment in Brooklyn Heights, at State Street. And we were -- and they were -- we had two clubs -- uh, or three clubs for each year, and that was -- or my year was '39, and we had '38, and '37, where three groups of fellows were using the house on, uh --

B. SCHWARTZ: State Street.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- State Street. We paid something like $25 a month [laughter] for that whole place. And now it's -- oh, even -- I don't know about now, but it was, um, $5,000 or something --

SULLIVAN: Right.

B. SCHWARTZ: The -- the -- the, uh, uh, school, uh, hadn't been built yet out -- out where it is now.

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. It was in --

B. SCHWARTZ: It was downtown. You know that.

SULLIVAN: I did not know that! I sort of --

B. SCHWARTZ: Oh! Oh!

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

SULLIVAN: -- always thought there was that campus.

B. SCHWARTZ: Oh, no.

E. SCHWARTZ: No, no.

B. SCHWARTZ: No, no --

E. SCHWARTZ: Brooklyn --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- no.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- College started in -- in -- down in Brooklyn Heights. That's why I -- I knew about the Heights very well, and it was easy to just -- because I had a fraternity room there.

SULLIVAN: Oh! Wow!

E. SCHWARTZ: And then -- and then, uh, uh, oh, I was living also -- at the time, I was living in -- in Midwood, uh, Avenue I and East 8th Street.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: You told her --

E. SCHWARTZ: And --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- that.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- and, uh, when Brooklyn College moved, it was very convenient for me, because there was only, uh -- I was in Midwood, and Brooklyn College was in Midwood.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: Had about a -- a ten-minute walk to -- to college.

B. SCHWARTZ: No. What are you saying?

E. SCHWARTZ: Isn't that something?

B. SCHWARTZ: I don't know what he's saying. It was downtown. It -- the school --

E. SCHWARTZ: Is that --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- was --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- the --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- down-

E. SCHWARTZ: -- question?

B. SCHWARTZ: No. The school was downtown.

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

B. SCHWARTZ: You're talking about the school's being downtown.

E. SCHWARTZ: Originally.

B. SCHWARTZ: As -- as a matter of fact, he tells a story about how a girl was crossing the street --

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

B. SCHWARTZ: -- and what happened to her?

E. SCHWARTZ: She was hit by a trolley. That -- we had trolley tracks --

B. SCHWARTZ: You had to go --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- there.

B. SCHWARTZ: -- from classroom to classroom in different buildings downtown. And, uh, she was hit.

E. SCHWARTZ: She was, uh, run over by a --

B. SCHWARTZ: Run over.

SULLIVAN: Oh, no.

B. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

E. SCHWARTZ: So that was -- because she had 15 minutes between classes, and you had to rush from one building to another to make it.

SULLIVAN: Right.

E. SCHWARTZ: But they were very --

B. SCHWARTZ: That's why --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- considerate.

B. SCHWARTZ: -- the fraternity --

E. SCHWARTZ: That's why --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- the fellowship --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- we had -- yeah.

B. SCHWARTZ: -- uh, was downtown.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

B. SCHWARTZ: Because the school was downtown --

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: -- at that time.

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

B. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

SULLIVAN: Oh!

E. SCHWARTZ: Anyway --

B. SCHWARTZ: Did you ever go --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- I'm a --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- to --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- I -- I'm a true Brooklynite.

B. SCHWARTZ: I'm -- I'm going to ask him a question: did you ever go to school on the campus?

E. SCHWARTZ: Of course.

B. SCHWARTZ: Oh! Y- you mean y- you were still going --

E. SCHWARTZ: Yes. W- well --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- to school --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- I was transferred in 19, uh --

B. SCHWARTZ: Oh. See?

E. SCHWARTZ: -- in 1932. I had --

B. SCHWARTZ: Oh.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- now, wait a minute. Now --

B. SCHWARTZ: Well--

E. SCHWARTZ: -- let's see. I got into the school, it was 1932 to -- I was going to graduate in thirty-s- '36. Yeah, 1932. In 1934, uh, it was -- the school was opened by --

B. SCHWARTZ: Uh-oh.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- Franklin D. Roosevelt.

B. SCHWARTZ: Oh-- Oh.

E. SCHWARTZ: You must have that in your archive somewhere.

SULLIVAN: I am sure -- I am sure we do. But I didn't -- I didn't know that.

B. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

B. SCHWARTZ: But it was downtown.

E. SCHWARTZ: So, uh, that was -- that was -- uh, uh, and that was the start of the, uh, Brooklyn College campus. Have you been to that?

SULLIVAN: I have, yeah. It's beautiful.

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

B. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. And, um, we, uh --

E. SCHWARTZ: Well, you can imagine how we felt from being downtown, rushing around building to building, to get -- and to be, uh, placed in that particular 20:00area. It was wonderful.

SULLIVAN: Yeah, yeah. I can imagine.

B. SCHWARTZ: And, uh, I'd -- let me just interject. We lived at 205 Hicks Street, across the street from the Bossert.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: We lived there for 52 years.

SULLIVAN: Wow!

B. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. We don't believe in moving around [laughter] much. [laughter]

E. SCHWARTZ: Now, we had my father's place up in Westchester for the summers --

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- so that was a relief.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: And then -- then -- and that's, uh, how, you know, we're a- a- attached to the Heights.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: Fifty-two years. [laughter]

SULLIVAN: Wow.

B. SCHWARTZ: So we're --

SULLIVAN: So --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- we are down here permanently, it's almost ten years.

SULLIVAN: Um, and you are in Florida now?

B. SCHWARTZ: Yes.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: Yes.

E. SCHWARTZ: [overlapping dialogue; inaudible]

B. SCHWARTZ: Sarasota.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: It's a won-

B. SCHWARTZ: You know Sarasota?

E. SCHWARTZ: It's a beautiful place.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: Yes.

SULLIVAN: Um --

E. SCHWARTZ: We are right next to the Gulf. We, uh -- we can see it, but thank 21:00god, we are far enough way to be entangled with some of the conditions of that -- of the Gulf, you know --

SULLIVAN: Oh --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- you know --

SULLIVAN: -- do you mean the weather, or-- ?

B. SCHWARTZ: Right. And --

E. SCHWARTZ: The weather and certain storms.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: And -- and we are far enough away from any -- any danger at this --

B. SCHWARTZ: Oh, boy.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- point, anyway.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. Yeah.

SULLIVAN: Um, so tell me how did --

B. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

SULLIVAN: -- you, um, become involved with the Synagogue?

B. SCHWARTZ: OK.

E. SCHWARTZ: OK.

B. SCHWARTZ: Let me -- let me -- oh! Oh! Do you want to talk about, um, how it started?

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

SULLIVAN: And how --

B. SCHWARTZ: Gene --

SULLIVAN: -- you got --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- Gene was --

SULLIVAN: -- involved. Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: What?

SULLIVAN: You --

B. SCHWARTZ: Gene was in -- i- in on it right from the beginning.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: No, that was --

B. SCHWARTZ: The building.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- it -- it -- no. It was your --

B. SCHWARTZ: Right.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- original thought. You saw a piece in the paper. It was in the Br-

B. SCHWARTZ: Oh! Oh! Oh, no, no, no. I'm --

E. SCHWARTZ: It --

B. SCHWARTZ: Oh! How we got involved?

E. SCHWARTZ: With the Synagogue.

SULLIVAN: Yeah.

B. SCHWARTZ: Oh. Yes.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: Uh, it's true. I saw a little -- a --

E. SCHWARTZ: Ad.

B. SCHWARTZ: -- blurb, uh --

E. SCHWARTZ: In the Brooklyn --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- in the Brooklyn --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- Heights paper.

B. SCHWARTZ: -- Heights Press. And it --

E. SCHWARTZ: It might have been the Eagle [Brooklyn Daily Eagle]. I don't know. [laughter]

B. SCHWARTZ: It was -- I -- no, I think it was the Press [Brooklyn Heights Press].

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: And it said, uh, "We want to start a synagogue. So if you're interested, uh, please come to my house, and, um, we'll talk about it." I don't know what -- I'm paraphrasing.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: And, um, it -- it -- the ad was put in by Rubin and Belle Hu- Huffman.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: They were the originators.

SULLIVAN: And --

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah --

SULLIVAN: -- did you --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- the origin-

SULLIVAN: -- know them --

B. SCHWARTZ: They --

SULLIVAN: -- before?

B. SCHWARTZ: -- they're -- no. No.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: We --

B. SCHWARTZ: No.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- got to know them very well.

B. SCHWARTZ: Very well.

E. SCHWARTZ: He was my attorney and accountant. But the, uh -- the point is he was steadfast, and really, uh, uh, e- everything, it started with him, and he carried through very meticulously. Uh, his -- his personality didn't show 23:00through, but his -- his, uh, uh, acumen and h- his strength in maintaining the -- the -- the desire to have that -- have a synagogue, uh, survive -- because we were the only --

B. SCHWARTZ: The --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- synagogue --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- there -- there were 13 churches --

E. SCHWARTZ: And no --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- and no --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- syna-

B. SCHWARTZ: -- synagogue.

SULLIVAN: Right.

E. SCHWARTZ: So as, uh, we, uh -- as we have a -- had a son born, we was concerned about, uh, religion for him, and, uh, we didn't know where to turn.

B. SCHWARTZ: Well, it --

E. SCHWARTZ: And then, uh, this synagogue proposition came up. He was at that time --

B. SCHWARTZ: He was --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- five years old.

B. SCHWARTZ: -- in Grace Church [254 Hicks St, Brooklyn]. [laughter]

E. SCHWARTZ: And, uh, yeah, that was his first place. So he was brought up in Brooklyn and went to Poly Prep [9216 7th Ave, Brooklyn] after that.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: Uh --

B. SCHWARTZ: He -- right. He was also -- he went --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- I guess --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- to the public school.

E. SCHWARTZ: Are you familiar -- hello?

SULLIVAN: Yes!

B. SCHWARTZ: He --

E. SCHWARTZ: I'm dead here.

B. SCHWARTZ: Uh -- oh! You're -- oh, is the phone dead? I'll get you --

SULLIVAN: I can --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- another --

SULLIVAN: -- I can --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- phone.

SULLIVAN: -- hear you.

B. SCHWARTZ: Oh, yeah. Mine is still --

E. SCHWARTZ: [inaudible]

B. SCHWARTZ: -- going.

SULLIVAN: OK.

B. SCHWARTZ: Is your phone dead?

E. SCHWARTZ: It looks like it is.

B. SCHWARTZ: Oh! Anyway, um, what did I want to say? He -- he went to -- our --

E. SCHWARTZ: Hello?

B. SCHWARTZ: -- son went --

SULLIVAN: Hello!

B. SCHWARTZ: -- to --

E. SCHWARTZ: OK. I'm OK.

B. SCHWARTZ: Our son went to, uh, Plymouth Church [75 Hicks St, Brooklyn], um, um, Nursery School, and then from there to Grace Church --

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: -- for kindergarten. [laughter] And at that point, we wanted him to have some kind of a Jewish education.

SULLIVAN: Right.

B. SCHWARTZ: So, uh, we heard about this synagogue, uh, being, um, formed.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: And we did not go to that first meeting at Rubin's house.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: The --

E. SCHWARTZ: We saw the --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- but we --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- ad --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- we -- but I -- so I sent a friend. I sent a man, a -- a friend of ours.

SULLIVAN: Who?

B. SCHWARTZ: And --

SULLIVAN: Do you remember --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- uh, who --

SULLIVAN: -- who --

B. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. Bob Brown.

SULLIVAN: OK.

B. SCHWARTZ: He's dead, too.

SULLIVAN: Mmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: They're all dead.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: Um, and Bob Brown I sent, and, uh -- because, uh, he was also interested, too, because he had a daughter --

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: -- and who lives in California now.

SULLIVAN: And could you -- did you have plans? Why couldn't you go to that first meeting?

B. SCHWARTZ: Because I was, uh -- [laughter] you want to know why?

SULLIVAN: Yeah.

B. SCHWARTZ: I -- I was afraid it was going to cost a lot of money.

SULLIVAN: Oh, yeah.

B. SCHWARTZ: And I said, "Oh, I can't do this. I -- I'm not ready for this."

SULLIVAN: Right.

B. SCHWARTZ: And so, uh, I didn't want to get involved. But I sent Bob Brown, because he's rich.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: So, um, that's how -- oh! And then, um, uh -- but my heart was always in it.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: So Bob, uh, talked about the meeting, and then he says they want to have a meeting for the whole community.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: So I said, "Well, I've got an idea." And I told him; I said, "Go to 26:00the Hotel Bossert, and I bet you the manager will give you a room." And sure enough, he did. And that was the first huge meeting of the whole neighborhood.

SULLIVAN: Wow! And so you -- did you know -- you knew the manager there because you had been living there?

B. SCHWARTZ: Oh! Y- you know, I didn't know him from then. I just, uh, knew that he would.

SULLIVAN: Uh-huh.

B. SCHWARTZ: No. No, not from living there --

SULLIVAN: Oh, OK.

B. SCHWARTZ: -- no. No.

E. SCHWARTZ: I can't hear now.

B. SCHWARTZ: No. So, um, the -- the huge meeting. And that started the --

E. SCHWARTZ: [inaudible]

B. SCHWARTZ: -- whole thing.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- turn this way.

B. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: It --

SULLIVAN: And -- and in the beginning, at that first meeting, how did it come up that this was going to be a Reform synagogue?

B. SCHWARTZ: Um, I'm -- you know, honor --

E. SCHWARTZ: I --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- I don't remember.

E. SCHWARTZ: I know.

B. SCHWARTZ: Maybe Gene knows.

E. SCHWARTZ: Noah, uh, Feldman.

B. SCHWARTZ: Oh, oh!

E. SCHWARTZ: Noah --

B. SCHWARTZ: [overlapping dialogue; inaudible]

E. SCHWARTZ: -- Feldman --

B. SCHWARTZ: Mmm-hmm. Noah Feldman.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- was also, uh, an -- an original, uh, interested p- party, and he and Rubin Huffman got together, and he influenced the situation for it to be a Reform synagogue. He was very instrumental.

B. SCHWARTZ: He was -- he belonged elsewhere.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. And, uh, uh -- but in the first months, he was very active, but after that, he wasn't.

B. SCHWARTZ: Well, because he belonged elsewheres --

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

B. SCHWARTZ: -- in -- in Brooklyn.

E. SCHWARTZ: And they lived on, uh, uh -- what's the name of the street?

B. SCHWARTZ: Remsen? Where'd they live? I don't know --

E. SCHWARTZ: Where our Synagogue --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- where they lived.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- is now.

B. SCHWARTZ: Remsen, Remsen.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: I don't know. You know, they are both gone.

E. SCHWARTZ: I -- I -- but I know where they lived: diagonally across where the synagogue --

B. SCHWARTZ: No --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- is --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- no.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- now.

B. SCHWARTZ: I don't know. I've never been there.

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. It -- but she was very -- later on, she -- his -- his wife, uh -- wh- what -- uh, what was her name?

B. SCHWARTZ: Sadie. After she got --

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

B. SCHWARTZ: -- after she got elderly, she, uh, became very active in our --

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

B. SCHWARTZ: -- Synagogue because, uh --

E. SCHWARTZ: It was --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- she couldn't travel to her old --

E. SCHWARTZ: It was --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- one.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- nearby.

B. SCHWARTZ: You know?

E. SCHWARTZ: And --

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- and she was --

B. SCHWARTZ: So that's -- that -- that happened to a lot of --

E. SCHWARTZ: She was --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- people.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- very active, and contributed very much as well.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm. Um, so tell me about some of those other people who were involved from the beginning.

E. SCHWARTZ: Oh. Yeah, there was, uh, a Milton M- Dr. Milton Myers [phonetic] from the area -- very good -- and Terri Myers [phonetic], his wife, um, uh, led the, uh, Women's --

B. SCHWARTZ: The Sisterhood.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- Auxiliary or whatever it --

B. SCHWARTZ: Sisterhood.

E. SCHWARTZ: Sisterhood.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: And they were very, very instrumental in holding -- and serious in holding the Synagogue together. Our -- our, uh, fir- our first, uh, experiences were very difficult. It was -- we couldn't -- had to find the -- the Jews. We didn't know if -- were any Jews in the area. Everybody else, we would walk down 29:00the street and "That's" -- we would say, "That's a Jewish couple!" Now, we don't know!

SULLIVAN: [laughter]

E. SCHWARTZ: And no -- there were no -- no synagogues, and you had no way of knowing what the Jewish population was.

B. SCHWARTZ: Let me -- let me tell you a funny story about that.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: Um, we -- and this was w- when we were -- got started. And we decided to have a wine and cheese, uh, party for 75 Henry Street, and use their, um, uh, social room. And 75 Henry Street I guess had -- had kind of just been built, uh, you know, uh, maybe a -- a year or two.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: And, um, so we got the names of everybody who -- who [laughter] lived in that house, and we picked out the people who we thought were Jewish. And, uh, I re- I'll never forget, uh, uh, this huge wheel of cheese --

SULLIVAN: [laughter]

B. SCHWARTZ: -- that we had. And, um, uh, so a few people came, just a few. And one of them was a Black lady, and she says, "Thank you very much [laughter] for inviting me."

SULLIVAN: Um, I'm assuming she was not Jewish.

B. SCHWARTZ: No, no!

SULLIVAN: [laughter]

B. SCHWARTZ: But she had kind of a Jewish name!

SULLIVAN: Yeah.

B. SCHWARTZ: So-- [laughter] That was so funny.

SULLIVAN: [laughter]

B. SCHWARTZ: Anyway, that -- that was one story. OK. Sorry.

SULLIVAN: No, that was wonderful. [laughter]

B. SCHWARTZ: A funny --

E. SCHWARTZ: And then --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- story.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- there was a -- another --

B. SCHWARTZ: Nobody came.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- there was an ori- another originator. Her name was Doctor -- it was Goldstein. They had the, uh -- the --

B. SCHWARTZ: Drugstore.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- drugstore on the corner of Pierrepont and --

B. SCHWARTZ: Not Mon-

E. SCHWARTZ: -- and Montague.

SULLIVAN: Oh!

B. SCHWARTZ: No, Montague.

E. SCHWARTZ: Not Montague?

B. SCHWARTZ: Montague --

E. SCHWARTZ: Not --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- and Hicks.

E. SCHWARTZ: Hicks. Hicks Street. Right.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: Montague and Hicks.

E. SCHWARTZ: On our corner --

B. SCHWARTZ: We had a --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- our --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- café, um, uh, the --

E. SCHWARTZ: Right?

B. SCHWARTZ: -- café where the restaurant is now.

SULLIVAN: Right! Yes.

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah--

B. SCHWARTZ: You know what I'm talking about?

SULLIVAN: I do.

B. SCHWARTZ: Yes.

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. That was a drug-

B. SCHWARTZ: That was a --

E. SCHWARTZ: -store.

B. SCHWARTZ: -- drugstore. And he even had a lunch counter.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. And he was one of the originals. And as a matter of fact, uh, he, uh, I think was -- was responsible mainly, on paper, for recruiting us. But he, uh -- and he got me -- I was -- I became a recruiter, and, uh -- and were --

B. SCHWARTZ: We all did.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- we -- we had just a -- a real problem finding people, and interesting them. Because they all lived their own lives where they were.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: And without --

B. SCHWARTZ: And it was --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- with- without religion.

B. SCHWARTZ: -- it -- right. And it was a time --

E. SCHWARTZ: And they were --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- when people our age were not interested in religion.

E. SCHWARTZ: And there were no families. Most had at -- the most they had was 32:00one --

B. SCHWARTZ: You know?

E. SCHWARTZ: -- child, because of the neighborhood.

B. SCHWARTZ: Then, when they had two children, they left.

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

B. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

E. SCHWARTZ: And so --

B. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- if they pressure, if there's some pressure, they would join if -- with a child. So we -- we struggled along -- long for about ten or 12 years, and we didn't have a place to stay. The Unitarian, uh -- I was going to say "Unitarian Hospital" -- the U- Unitarian, uh --

B. SCHWARTZ: Church.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- Church let us use that small, uh, one-room, uh, addition they had on, uh -- what street was that?

B. SCHWARTZ: Oh, uh, um --

E. SCHWARTZ: Marion [phonetic] Street?

B. SCHWARTZ: Was it Pierrepont?

E. SCHWARTZ: Pierrepont.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: Right, uh, be- between, uh, uh, the t- first two blocks, which were Court Street and -- what's the next street name?

B. SCHWARTZ: You -- I --

SULLIVAN: Clinton?

B. SCHWARTZ: You -- uh, it -- it's opposite that, um, um, government building.

SULLIVAN: Uh, between Court and Clinton?

B. SCHWARTZ: It --

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

B. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: I -- I guess.

E. SCHWARTZ: And we're -- they were very kind to us, uh, Unitarian Church. And we stayed there for a while because we couldn't find a place.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: A place. Eventually, Gene Hurkin, uh, one of the members of our Synagogue, uh, an attorney, and -- and his mother --

B. SCHWARTZ: who was in real --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- was in real --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- estate--

E. SCHWARTZ: -- estate found a pl- a -- an apartment, um, in a house on, uh, uh --

B. SCHWARTZ: Remsen.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- Remsen Street.

SULLIVAN: Who was that? What was that person's name? I --

B. SCHWARTZ: Eugene Hurkin.

SULLIVAN: Oh, OK.

B. SCHWARTZ: H-U-R-K-I-N.

E. SCHWARTZ: I think he's -- he's an active attorney in the area. His son is a judge --

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- at this point.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: And his mother owned a lot of property.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

B. SCHWARTZ: And she was in real estate.

E. SCHWARTZ: And --

B. SCHWARTZ: And --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- he was --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- uh, this was when -- you know, after we got started. And, uh, so they called to meet- uh, she -- she presented a brownstone on Remsen Street --

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: -- that was owned by a union. Oh, I can't think of what union--

E. SCHWARTZ: Electronic union.

B. SCHWARTZ: Electrical.

E. SCHWARTZ: Union.

SULLIVAN: Oh!

B. SCHWARTZ: It was the electri- elec- electri- oh, I don't know. Something to do with electric.

SULLIVAN: Uh-huh.

B. SCHWARTZ: And they owned this brownstone, and their organization was falling apart, so they couldn't keep up with this brownstone. So it was for sale, and Rose Hurkin had it. And, uh, we went to a meeting in the building. Uh, um, Margaret Levin [phonetic] and, uh, the Cohens, uh, Marian and Jack Cohen --

SULLIVAN: Uh-huh.

B. SCHWARTZ: -- Marion just died.

SULLIVAN: I heard, yes.

B. SCHWARTZ: She was a very dear friend of mine.

E. SCHWARTZ: She was a leader in the Synagogue.

B. SCHWARTZ: She was.

E. SCHWARTZ: She was a cantor. We had no cantor --

B. SCHWARTZ: She sang.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- and she sang for us for maybe seven or eight years.

SULLIVAN: Oh, wow.

E. SCHWARTZ: And -- and m- you know --

B. SCHWARTZ: Yes.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- without any --

B. SCHWARTZ: Yes.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- charge. And she -- and -- and --

B. SCHWARTZ: She was the --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- and sh-

B. SCHWARTZ: -- secretary at a certain point.

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, and she --

B. SCHWARTZ: She did everything.

E. SCHWARTZ: She ran the rummage s- uh, uh, rummage sale.

B. SCHWARTZ: Oh, we had rummage sales.

E. SCHWARTZ: Rummage?

B. SCHWARTZ: This is Sisterhood.

SULLIVAN: Right.

E. SCHWARTZ: And --

B. SCHWARTZ: We -- uh, we were very in-

E. SCHWARTZ: She belonged to --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- uh, involved.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- the, uh -- the flower society. What is that?

B. SCHWARTZ: Well, that has nothing to do with --

E. SCHWARTZ: No, I just want to say what -- what -- she was a very enterprising woman.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: And, uh -- and the Cohens, uh, he is still -- I just spoke --

B. SCHWARTZ: We --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- to him.

B. SCHWARTZ: Last night, yeah.

E. SCHWARTZ: But he was presi- and I ran --

B. SCHWARTZ: She was one of my best friends.

E. SCHWARTZ: We introduced them to the Synagogue. They might not even remember 36:00that -- or he might not. But, uh, uh, they -- they think they are charter members, but they -- they weren't. We were -- we weren't even --

B. SCHWARTZ: No --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- charter --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- we were charter members.

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

B. SCHWARTZ: And sh-

E. SCHWARTZ: They --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- they --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- came in after.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: Yes. Um --

E. SCHWARTZ: But they told --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- they --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- the --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- um -- they were not founding -- she -- and she used to claim she was a founding member, and I -- look, I -- she is gone, and let her be a founding member; I don't care.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: You know? I --

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but they --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- can't -- I'm --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- they --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- very [overlapping dialogue; inaudible] --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- contributed so much --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- and very upset.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- they contributed so much to the Synagogue.

B. SCHWARTZ: Yes.

E. SCHWARTZ: And --

B. SCHWARTZ: She did.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- and Jack is -- is my age and he is still very virile [pronounced "viral"]. He is a -- he's is, uh --

B. SCHWARTZ: "Viral?"

E. SCHWARTZ: -- virile.

B. SCHWARTZ: [laughter]

E. SCHWARTZ: Well, he --

B. SCHWARTZ: "Vital?"

E. SCHWARTZ: Vital. Vital.

B. SCHWARTZ: Right.

SULLIVAN: [laughter]

E. SCHWARTZ: I have just been reading his -- [laughter] his story in the [New York] Times.

SULLIVAN: Oh, yeah!

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. Did you read it?

SULLIVAN: No, no I haven't.

B. SCHWARTZ: What story?

E. SCHWARTZ: Well, that's interesting. They -- they, uh--

B. SCHWARTZ: All right. We -- we're --

E. SCHWARTZ: All right.

B. SCHWARTZ: -- we're interrupting. All right. So, um, uh, uh, the -- the -- all of us got together. And there was a president, and he was afraid to buy the building.

SULLIVAN: Is this 117 Remsen? Is it--

B. SCHWARTZ: Yes.

SULLIVAN: OK. Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: And he was afraid.

SULLIVAN: Why?

B. SCHWARTZ: Because of money.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: And you know, those were different years --

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: -- you have to realize.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: You know what year we're talking about?

SULLIVAN: Uh, I -- I'm not sure what year.

B. SCHWARTZ: Uh, l- uh, l- let's see.

E. SCHWARTZ: 50 years ago!

B. SCHWARTZ: 50 years ago.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: OK. Uh, or maybe a little less, because we were in business already.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: Um, anyway. So he -- the president was so afraid to buy it, and the rest of us wanted to buy it. "You gotta take a chance!" And people were taking 38:00off their [laughter] shoes and -- and -- and, uh, banging on the tables.

SULLIVAN: [gasps]

B. SCHWARTZ: Uh, that "you've got to buy it! This is an opportunity!" And so they did.

E. SCHWARTZ: Up to that point, we were a floating synagogue.

B. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, we were --

E. SCHWARTZ: We had no property.

B. SCHWARTZ: -- all over. We -- we, uh, had --

E. SCHWARTZ: We just -- just --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- services --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- had a will, and, uh -- and -- and nothing to show for it.

B. SCHWARTZ: We -- we, uh, uh, uh, worshipped in, uh, uh, Trinity. You know what Trinity Church [157 Montague] is?

SULLIVAN: Yes.

B. SCHWARTZ: Spencer [Church on Remsen St and Clinton St].

SULLIVAN: Yes.

B. SCHWARTZ: Spencer.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: You know Spencer Church?

SULLIVAN: I do. Yeah.

B. SCHWARTZ: It was where --

E. SCHWARTZ: She knows --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- with --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- every church, right?

B. SCHWARTZ: -- with the apartments.

E. SCHWARTZ: She's right in the middle of them!

B. SCHWARTZ: But it's not the church -- it's apartments.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: Right. So we were there for a while. We were there for a long time. And, um, then I don't -- I don't know what happened. I -- I really don't know. And, um, where else? I don't remember.

E. SCHWARTZ: I -- I don't know which --

SULLIVAN: How --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- is --

SULLIVAN: -- how did it change things when the Synagogue had permanent space?

B. SCHWARTZ: Oh. Um --

E. SCHWARTZ: It's --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- how did --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- it began to expand.

B. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

E. SCHWARTZ: And, uh, eventually, we had a rabbi. I -- I don't know his name. I didn't -- I didn't particularly like him, but everybody loved him. He was --

B. SCHWARTZ: Oh, that was a long time later. Gene --

E. SCHWARTZ: Well, whatever.

B. SCHWARTZ: Oh!

E. SCHWARTZ: But you -- uh, he was a --

B. SCHWARTZ: No, no.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- he was an expert in -- what was he? A dancer, or a performer? What?

SULLIVAN: Uh --

B. SCHWARTZ: I know --

SULLIVAN: -- is that Rabbi Jacobs?

B. SCHWARTZ: Y- yeah. Yeah.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: Oh, you know --

B. SCHWARTZ: And --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- about him?

B. SCHWARTZ: -- that was much later.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: That was --

E. SCHWARTZ: But he -- well, let me say he was much later, but he was very instrumental, and he brought a lot of people into --

B. SCHWARTZ: Bringing --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- the Synagogue --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- people in.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- because of his attitude and, uh, his availability for children.

SULLIVAN: Mmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: And, uh, I didn't particularly like him. He's a bright enough guy, but w- we didn't hit it off together.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: Uh, but there -- when we got, uh, uh, Rabbi Lippe--

B. SCHWARTZ: He is marvelous.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- he is the greatest individual I ever met, and probably would -- well -- well, I don't have many m- more years to meet anybody. But he is, uh, s- so proficient in any area you can talk about.

B. SCHWARTZ: Yes.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: His experience and --

B. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- his intellect, h- he is just a --

B. SCHWARTZ: Yes.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- tremendous individual.

B. SCHWARTZ: Yes.

E. SCHWARTZ: Not -- it has nothing to do with religion.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: I -- although he knows every --

B. SCHWARTZ: Oh, everything.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- every, uh --

B. SCHWARTZ: Yes.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- nook and cran- cranny of religion. He just --

B. SCHWARTZ: Yes.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- when you talk to him, you will see that he is a --

B. SCHWARTZ: Have you spoken with him yet?

SULLIVAN: Yes, briefly, but I -- not an --

B. SCHWARTZ: Yes.

SULLIVAN: -- interview, yeah.

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

B. SCHWARTZ: Oh, he is a -- he is a fantastic --

E. SCHWARTZ: Well --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- person --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- somebody --

B. SCHWARTZ: [overlapping dialogue; inaudible]

E. SCHWARTZ: -- had read -- when we engaged him, somebody had c- come to speak to him, and -- and he spoke exactly like I'm speaking today. And I said, "How can you believe that? This guy sounds like God himself."

SULLIVAN: Mmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: And -- and, uh, he is. He is the most terrific guy --

B. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- I ever met, although I'm not that friendly with him.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: I just -- as an appraisal.

B. SCHWARTZ: Yes.

E. SCHWARTZ: And I met a lot of people in my lifetime, selling insurance. And I recognize that this man is the greatest.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: Yes. Yeah.

E. SCHWARTZ: Next to my father.

B. SCHWARTZ: [laughter]

SULLIVAN: Wonderful!

B. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. Yeah. He -- you know, uh, we spoke to Jack Cohen last night.

SULLIVAN: Mmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: Jack told me that the rabbi calls him every day.

SULLIVAN: Oh, that's --

B. SCHWARTZ: Can you imagine?

SULLIVAN: -- really good. Yeah.

B. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, yeah.

SULLIVAN: That's wonderful.

B. SCHWARTZ: So, yeah. He --

E. SCHWARTZ: I --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- he --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- I --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- is a terrific guy.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- I didn't have too much to do with the Synagogue when he came in. We were fading, sort of. But Marian and Jack --

B. SCHWARTZ: It was too hard for us --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- were -- were very --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- to walk.

E. SCHWARTZ: --steadfast, and they spent the whole 50 years a- as strong 42:00proponents --

B. SCHWARTZ: Right.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- of the Synagogue.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: Right.

E. SCHWARTZ: They're terrific --

B. SCHWARTZ: But we -- we were -- we --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- terr-

B. SCHWARTZ: -- really, um, were not active.

E. SCHWARTZ: When?

B. SCHWARTZ: Uh --

E. SCHWARTZ: Because certainly in the last ten years -- I mean, we're -- we're here ten years now. So, uh, starting 20 years ago --

B. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- we were -- was --

B. SCHWARTZ: Fading, um --

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. And --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- uh--

E. SCHWARTZ: -- we had our own -- we had a problem where -- where --

B. SCHWARTZ: OK.

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

B. SCHWARTZ: That -- that's enough.

E. SCHWARTZ: I can't talk about it.

B. SCHWARTZ: All right.

SULLIVAN: OK. That's fine.

B. SCHWARTZ: Uh, um, we --

SULLIVAN: Um --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- um--

SULLIVAN: -- I have a question, which is, in the beginning, you said that -- um, that in the beginning of the Synagogue that it was a -- it was a time when, uh, not a lot of people your age were interested in religion.

B. SCHWARTZ: Oh --

E. SCHWARTZ: Oh.

SULLIVAN: Can you tell me --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- right.

SULLIVAN: -- more about that?

B. SCHWARTZ: Well, I --

E. SCHWARTZ: We struggled --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- uh --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- with it.

B. SCHWARTZ: -- it -- it -- it's they weren't interested. Uh, they -- they didn't feel their children needed any --

E. SCHWARTZ: They didn't have any children.

B. SCHWARTZ: Yes, yes. They had chil-

E. SCHWARTZ: Well, a few --

B. SCHWARTZ: I --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- of them.

B. SCHWARTZ: -- I used to, you know --

E. SCHWARTZ: When we --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- have --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- had --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- have all these ladies I'd meet in the playground, and walking 43:00with the baby carriage, and, you know, uh, uh, in schools. You know, my son, at that point, was five years old.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: And, um, uh, the -- the -- so the school connections. And, um, um, uh, it was, uh -- it -- they weren't interested, although we invited the whole community to a, um, uh -- a, um, um -- what's, um, uh, uh, the-- the one where you give the presents? I -- you know, I can't think. Um, what's the holiday, Gene?

SULLIVAN: Purim?

B. SCHWARTZ: Yes -- no. Not Purim. That's now. No. Um, uh, Christmas.

SULLIVAN: Oh, OK.

B. SCHWARTZ: Hanukkah. Hanukkah!

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: We h- Marian and I, we used to run all these things. Um, um, uh, 44:00uh, for the whole community, a Hanukkah party, and we had it at the church, um -- I'll tell you where. Uh, I can't think of the name of the church. The one on Henry Street. What's that one?

SULLIVAN: Um--

B. SCHWARTZ: Not -- not the Lutheran --

SULLIVAN: And is it --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- this one.

SULLIVAN: -- an E- Episcopal church?

B. SCHWARTZ: I don't know.

SULLIVAN: I can -- that's fine. I can look that up, because I have --

B. SCHWARTZ: Uh, uh --

SULLIVAN: -- a list of some of the places that --

B. SCHWARTZ: Uh --

SULLIVAN: -- um --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- well, th--

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm?

B. SCHWARTZ: -- this was right on Pi- on, um -- what street did I say?

SULLIVAN: Henry?

E. SCHWARTZ: Pierrepont.

B. SCHWARTZ: Henry Street.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: And, um, uh, they allowed us to have the party there. And we thought, "Oh, we'll get a lot of kids, you know, to belong to the Synagogue."

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: Nah! We didn't. [laughter] We didn't. We knocked our brains out how we're --

E. SCHWARTZ: Well --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- giving them a Hanukkah party --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- and -- and let me just --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- and -- and -- and, uh, all -- all k- all the kids from the neighborhood came, um, and not one -- I don't think one of them joined.

SULLIVAN: Oh!

B. SCHWARTZ: It -- it was very discouraging, you know?

E. SCHWARTZ: Oh, for years --

B. SCHWARTZ: But --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- we --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- for years --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- struggled. And Bob -- Bob Huffman, uh, uh, he -- uh, he, uh, held everything together. He was quite a man. His -- personality-wise, you couldn't recognize it, because, uh, he didn't speak that well, although as an attorney, uh, he, uh --

B. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- uh, he -- I don't --

B. SCHWARTZ: He was --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- know.

B. SCHWARTZ: -- not of -- a -- a public speaker.

E. SCHWARTZ: No.

SULLIVAN: Uh-huh.

B. SCHWARTZ: No. But --

E. SCHWARTZ: But Har- you --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- but he'd -- [laughter] he'd get up and speak!

E. SCHWARTZ: Oh, yeah. And Harvey Strelzin -- do you know him? Of him?

SULLIVAN: No, I don't.

B. SCHWARTZ: Oh.

E. SCHWARTZ: Well, Strelzin --

SULLIVAN: Actually, I do recognize his name from reading -- I read newsletters. But I -- I haven't --

B. SCHWARTZ: Yes.

SULLIVAN: -- I don't know him. Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: Yes. Well, he's dead, too.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: Oh, yeah.

E. SCHWARTZ: He and his wife --

B. SCHWARTZ: He was one of the first to die --

E. SCHWARTZ: And he was -- was --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- as a matter of fact.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- and -- and, uh, he -- in -- in -- in -- in politics, they called him a "man with the silken voice."

SULLIVAN: Oh!

E. SCHWARTZ: He was, uh, very active, I think, in Albany.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: But, uh--

B. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. He was a-- a legislator for a while.

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

B. SCHWARTZ: And -- yeah.

E. SCHWARTZ: State --

B. SCHWARTZ: One --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- leg-

B. SCHWARTZ: -- one term. Yeah. O- one term.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: Um, what else do you want to know?

SULLIVAN: Um, I'm -- I guess I'm still -- I'm still curious about why --

B. SCHWARTZ: It --

SULLIVAN: -- why people -- why was there some --

B. SCHWARTZ: Well --

SULLIVAN: -- people who were interested in starting a synagogue, and other people who --

B. SCHWARTZ: Right.

SULLIVAN: -- then weren't interested --

B. SCHWARTZ: Well --

SULLIVAN: -- in joining, even.

B. SCHWARTZ: Right.

E. SCHWARTZ: Well --

B. SCHWARTZ: Right.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- you -- you've got to understand --

B. SCHWARTZ: Right.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- why. The people who were living in Brooklyn Heights --

B. SCHWARTZ: [inaudible]

E. SCHWARTZ: -- were not concerned with religion ma- anyway, in any way. They were in a gentile community.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: And they, uh, learned to a- to be gentiles --

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- so to speak.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: I'm sure they -- a lot of them went to church, the Jewish people.

B. SCHWARTZ: No.

E. SCHWARTZ: Well, you --

B. SCHWARTZ: No. The thing is that -- th- that's a -- it's a long time ago, and, um, um -- let's see. Uh, um, my son was, um, uh, um -- [laughter] well, hold -- let me get this straight. Uh, he -- he was f- he was born in '54, and --

E. SCHWARTZ: Fifty-five, I think.

B. SCHWARTZ: Fifty-four, and he was five years old when we b- became, you know, involved.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: So what year is that?

E. SCHWARTZ: Fifty years ago!

SULLIVAN: Uh --

B. SCHWARTZ: [overlapping dialogue; inaudible]

SULLIVAN: --'59?

B. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, fif- 1959.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: And it -- you know, it -- it -- s- s- they were strange years. Uh, first of all, there were, uh, this enormous group who, as soon as they had their 48:00second child, they went to the suburbs.

SULLIVAN: Right.

B. SCHWARTZ: And, uh, even we had a -- a choice, um, a year later. We had a choice: either move to Great Neck [Long Island], or send our son to private school.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: You know? So we chose to stay in Brooklyn Heights and send him to private school.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: He went to Poly Prep.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: So that, you know, uh, we -- we had a choice. So -- but a lot, a lot of people left --

E. SCHWARTZ: Well, the pe-

B. SCHWARTZ: [overlapping dialogue; inaudible]

E. SCHWARTZ: -- the pe-

B. SCHWARTZ: -- as soon as they had a second child.

E. SCHWARTZ: The --

B. SCHWARTZ: The -- the apartments weren't big enough!

E. SCHWARTZ: Well --

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- the people that were --

B. SCHWARTZ: And the --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- li-

B. SCHWARTZ: -- schools weren't that marvelous.

E. SCHWARTZ: The -- and the --

SULLIVAN:Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- people that were living there were not, uh-- synagogue, uh, involved.

B. SCHWARTZ: Oh, I bet you when -- I disagree with you. I bet you that when they moved to the suburbs, they all joined.

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. Well --

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- they --

B. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- they --

B. SCHWARTZ: yeah.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- were living in the Heights, which, they had no pressures. That's where they wanted to be: close to Wall Street, or -- or downtown Brooklyn.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: These people were not fa- family-oriented. And e- eventually, they became so, at certain ages. But the young people that were -- at the beginning were business people. They were not that concerned with, uh, family and religion.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: No, and I think it was -- I don't know. It was more than that.

E. SCHWARTZ: Well --

B. SCHWARTZ: It was a philosophy.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- it's all conjecture.

B. SCHWARTZ: They -- y- yeah.

E. SCHWARTZ: We don't -- we --

B. SCHWARTZ: Yes.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- don't know.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: Well --

E. SCHWARTZ: That's what --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- yes.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- you can say. We --

B. SCHWARTZ: We --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- don't know why they were not interested.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: But they -- they just weren't. [laughter]

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: They were -- in other words, we had a real tough time for the first ten or 12 years.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: And then, uh, it blossomed.

E. SCHWARTZ: And --

B. SCHWARTZ: Now --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- what --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- they have thousands of -- well, hundreds of kids.

SULLIVAN: Yeah! And what-- what caused that change, do you think?

E. SCHWARTZ: Well, I'm telling you, the rabbi -- the dancer one; I forgot his name.

SULLIVAN: Rabbi Jacobs?

E. SCHWARTZ: Is that his name?

B. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, that's his --

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

B. SCHWARTZ: -- name.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: Uh, yeah. He -- he attracted -- he started -- he broke, uh, the seal. I think they started coming when they knew that he was intellectually bright and had this aesthetic interest, and they were dancing on the street. He was dancing at some of the affairs on the street, and he attracted a lot of people. And that, uh -- and Rabbi Lippe, uh, came a little later, and it's -- that flow of people continued.

B. SCHWARTZ: And I think it be- it became fashionable.

E. SCHWARTZ: [coughing]

B. SCHWARTZ: I really do. I --

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: -- think it beca- especially Brooklyn Heights Synagogue --

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: -- I think it became fashionable to --

E. SCHWARTZ: To join.

B. SCHWARTZ: -- belong.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: And that's where, uh, you would have your socializing. That's 51:00what's going on now: socializing, and their kids are socializing and doing marvelous things.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: And, um, uh, it --

E. SCHWARTZ: They're --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- it --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- into --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- I -- I -- I think it became fashionable. And --

E. SCHWARTZ: They're into --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- when we started, it wasn't fashionable.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: And now they're interested in the, uh -- in the community and everything else. And it -- the thing is bubbling. It's a real profitable, uh, enterprise, in that it -- you don't have to solicit people -- they come on their own, which is --

B. SCHWARTZ: Right.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- a wonderful thing. But it -- it took 40 --

B. SCHWARTZ: They have so much to offer.

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. It took -- if -- have you seen their schedules at all?

SULLIVAN: Oh, yes. Yes.

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. So --

B. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- they got a lot of interesting pr- uh, projects going, and the kids are going with them. And it's -- it's become a very strong, movable force --

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- which we're -- uh, we wanted it; well, it came, but near- now, you see, Bernice and myself never really saw it. We just did the hard work, and the easy work --

B. SCHWARTZ: [laughter]

E. SCHWARTZ: -- now is done by somebody else.

SULLIVAN: Right! [laughter] That's true. Was there --

B. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

SULLIVAN: -- was there any worry when you were starting a synagogue, like, you know, about "What if -- what if we can't pay the -- the, you know, mortgage on the building?" Or, "What if people don't -- we don't get enough members?" Like was it a feeling of worry, or-- ?

B. SCHWARTZ: Oh, I had nothing to do with that.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: I'm sorry -- I didn't --

B. SCHWARTZ: He didn't --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- get what she --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- hear.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- said.

B. SCHWARTZ: Uh, uh, the -- uh, was there a feeling of worrying about financial --

E. SCHWARTZ: Oh, yes.

B. SCHWARTZ: Oh, yes?

E. SCHWARTZ: Always.

B. SCHWARTZ: Oh, I didn't --

E. SCHWARTZ: Sure.

B. SCHWARTZ: -- know. I --

E. SCHWARTZ: We had --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- I had --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- a very low --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- nothing to do with--

E. SCHWARTZ: -- we had a -- a big budget, and very little, uh, admission charge, very little membership charge. Now it's certainly th- three or four times that amount. Although we contributed from where we are. We are not active members.

B. SCHWARTZ: We are still members.

E. SCHWARTZ: We're still members. We contribute.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm. Mmm-hmm. Um, so can you tell me about a time -- is there -- is there a certain moment or event or -- or -- or --

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

SULLIVAN: -- something that stands out where you felt most connected to the Synagogue?

E. SCHWARTZ: I'm sorry -- I didn't hear that.

B. SCHWARTZ: Oh, oh. And you want -- i- is there a moment where you felt most connected to the Synagogue?

E. SCHWARTZ: I think we were connected -- hello?

SULLIVAN: Hello!

E. SCHWARTZ: And I think we were connected from the very -- very beginning.

B. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

E. SCHWARTZ: And, uh, Huffman, uh, the Huffmans and -- and the Cohens kept it -- our interest very -- very solidly.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: Very --

B. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- very --

B. SCHWARTZ: [overlapping dialogue; inaudible]

E. SCHWARTZ: -- very strong people, in that they were determined and they stayed that way.

B. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: No. I -- I --

E. SCHWARTZ: And everybody connected with the Synagogue during our period were 54:00very determined to keep it -- keep the Synagogue alive and floating because that's all we were -- we were a floating synagogue without a place.

B. SCHWARTZ: But then when we -- we got the building, we --

E. SCHWARTZ: Oh, we cele-

B. SCHWARTZ: -- Marian and I, uh, and a few others, we used to run rummage sales --

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

B. SCHWARTZ: -- every year. We just stopped it a couple of years ago. I -- see, I've lost track of time because I'm living here.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: But, uh, we had --

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. The rummage sales --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- fantastic --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- kept us alive.

B. SCHWARTZ: -- fantastic rummage sales.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: Uh, and we had a huge amount of people who were members of the Sisterhood.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: We had a big, uh, uh -- well, not huge: a hundred- I remember 140 was tops. But, uh, it was good. And th- this is an interesting, uh -- I don't know. Um, we had a very going Sisterhood.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: We don't have one anymore --

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: -- incidentally. Um, and one of the reasons why it doesn't exist: these women who would naturally belong to a Sisterhood work for the Synagogue.

SULLIVAN: Ah, yes.

B. SCHWARTZ: So we got bolted.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: That was the end of us --

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: -- because all these ladies of a certain age worked for the Synagogue. And the old ones, um, just couldn't walk there anymore, you know?

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm. So --

B. SCHWARTZ: And --

SULLIVAN: -- is --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- that was the end.

SULLIVAN: -- is that change --

E. SCHWARTZ: What was --

SULLIVAN: -- from --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- Stanley's wife's --

SULLIVAN: -- from the Sisterhood --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- name?

SULLIVAN: -- to -- to people working for the synagogue, is that because of changes --

E. SCHWARTZ: And what's his --

SULLIVAN: -- in, um --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- last name?

SULLIVAN: -- women's opportunities? Or is --

B. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. I think so.

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, wasn't it --

B. SCHWARTZ: And I -- I -- uh, you know, I'm not really -- all --

E. SCHWARTZ: [inaudible]

B. SCHWARTZ: -- I know is that these young women who joined the Synagogue, they were asked to be on this committee, that committee, and -- and that was it.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: That Sisterhood, uh, dissipated.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: That was the end of us.

SULLIVAN: So in the beginning, were -- was there a division, um, in that women would be part of the Sisterhood, but not part of other committees?

B. SCHWARTZ: Y- yes.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: Uh, in the beginning, uh, the Sisterhood, you didn't even have to be a member of the Synagogue.

SULLIVAN: Mmm!

B. SCHWARTZ: So for ten, $15, $10 a year, they became Sisterhood members.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: And I -- I -- they -- I guess they [laughter] thought they had a connection with Judaism that way.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: Or, so, um, uh -- and we'd do lunch and things -- oh, beautiful things.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: And, um, we -- we had, you know, these, um, ladies, uh, who were 57:00not members of the Synagogue.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: And they would come to Sisterhood.

SULLIVAN: Oh! And so was the -- what was the -- what were the goals of -- of the Sisterhood?

B. SCHWARTZ: To give the money to [laughter] the Synagogue!

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: That was the goal.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: We needed money terribly.

B. SCHWARTZ: So we -- we'd run fundraisers all the time.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: And the money was for the Synagogue.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: And that's what we did.

SULLIVAN: And so the women who were not members of the Synagogue but were --

B. SCHWARTZ: Yes.

SULLIVAN: -- members of the --

B. SCHWARTZ: Yes.

SULLIVAN: -- Sisterhood --

B. SCHWARTZ: Yes.

SULLIVAN: -- um, why were they participating that way?

B. SCHWARTZ: Oh, I think, uh, it was a social outlet.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: Uh, and -- and --

E. SCHWARTZ: Well, and, uh --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- there is a -- a -- a --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- it was not binding. You didn't have to be a member.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: And they, uh -- and maybe they thought -- as I said before, they're -- they had an attachment to Judaism by [laughter] being a Sisterhood member.

SULLIVAN: Right, right.

B. SCHWARTZ: [laughter] Yeah, yeah. Now, uh, uh, but, um, uh, it was socializing --

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: -- you know?

E. SCHWARTZ: Bernice, what's Stanley's --

B. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- last name?

B. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. Levenson.

E. SCHWARTZ: Huh?

B. SCHWARTZ: Levenson. There's a -- a --

E. SCHWARTZ: What is the last name?

B. SCHWARTZ: Levenson.

E. SCHWARTZ: Oh. Yeah. Stanley Levenson --

B. SCHWARTZ: He was --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- who, uh --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- one of the beginning --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- he was a pillar of, uh -- of -- of -- of the program. He was -- he and Bob Huffman, I would say, were the -- were the strongest of all.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: And -- and --

B. SCHWARTZ: His wife is --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- and his --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- still --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- his --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- around.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- his mother was a great participant for -- monetarily.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: And his, uh -- his wife is -- she is very ill now.

B. SCHWARTZ: She is.

E. SCHWARTZ: What's her name? Bernice?

B. SCHWARTZ: Ruth.

E. SCHWARTZ: Ruth.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: Her name is Ruth. She is a -- the last original member of the Synagogue.

SULLIVAN: Mmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: She -- or she --

B. SCHWARTZ: She was a founder.

E. SCHWARTZ: She was a founder.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: She is the oldest member of the Synagogue.

B. SCHWARTZ: And we are -- we are --

E. SCHWARTZ: Next.

B. SCHWARTZ: -- charter members.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: And that's -- and she is -- I -- and I think Eugene Hurkin, uh, he is probably considered a founder, too.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: I -- I'm not -- you -- you know, I -- I -- I think so.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: Well --

B. SCHWARTZ: As --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- in --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- I said --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- in --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- general -- in general, on reflecting, it was really our whole life during the growing up of our ch- child, and, uh, for, let's say, 15, the first 15 years of the Synagogue, we were quite active and interested. And, uh, uh, things turned, and we got more interested in, uh, the country --

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- and also -- and -- and --

B. SCHWARTZ: We --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- then --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- we --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- and then we had a place in Florida.

B. SCHWARTZ: And -- and we'd come -- go and come. And --

SULLIVAN: Right.

B. SCHWARTZ: -- we -- you know, we would -- Gene was --

E. SCHWARTZ: We were pi-

B. SCHWARTZ: -- still working, but we'd come and go to Florida a lot.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: So I -- I became, you know --

[Unidentified speaker]: Less active.

B. SCHWARTZ: -- less active.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm. How has being a member of the Synagogue affected your life?

B. SCHWARTZ: Um --

E. SCHWARTZ: Affected --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- in a --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- what?

B. SCHWARTZ: -- positive way.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: Uh --

E. SCHWARTZ: Excuse me -- affected what?

B. SCHWARTZ: Our lives.

E. SCHWARTZ: Oh!

B. SCHWARTZ: I -- I -- it was a positive.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

B. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

B. SCHWARTZ: It was --

E. SCHWARTZ: Of course --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- positive.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- as I say, those 15 years or so were very effective. We were very involved, and --

B. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- and, uh, it was that we think in terms of being involved, and we are not at this [laughter] point.

B. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

E. SCHWARTZ: It's left such a strong impression upon us.

B. SCHWARTZ: Yes.

SULLIVAN: Right, right. Well, you obviously --

B. SCHWARTZ: Yes.

SULLIVAN: -- are still involved. I mean, the -- the --

B. SCHWARTZ: Well --

SULLIVAN: -- you are --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- financially.

SULLIVAN: Well, and -- and --

B. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

SULLIVAN: -- you are very much -- um, people were interested in making sure that -- that they had your memories as part of this oral history --

B. SCHWARTZ: Oh.

SULLIVAN: -- collection, so--

B. SCHWARTZ: Uh-huh. Yeah.

SULLIVAN: Um --

B. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. Well, Gene, uh, you -- you know, try- used to remember a lot.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: Uh, so -- and I -- I -- I, of course, was very active in Sisterhood.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: I just --

B. SCHWARTZ: So [overlapping dialogue; inaudible]

E. SCHWARTZ: -- want to say something --

B. SCHWARTZ: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- of my roots in Brooklyn.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: My father was a founder of the -- what's called the -- the Ocean Parkway Jew- Jewish Center.

SULLIVAN: Oh, yes!

E. SCHWARTZ: Uh, but they were on, uh, Dahill and Ditmas. Do you -- are you familiar with the Bensonhurst area?

SULLIVAN: A little bit, yeah.

E. SCHWARTZ: Well, that's Benson- Dahill and Ditma- Dit- Ditmas you know. That's in -- that's in Flatbush. Runs all the way to Bensonhurst --

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- through -- but -- and, uh, uh, Ditmas and, uh, uh -- what's the [laughter] other one? I --

B. SCHWARTZ: I don't know.

SULLIVAN: Dahill --

E. SCHWARTZ: Dahill.

B. SCHWARTZ: It's Dahill.

SULLIVAN: -- did you say?

B. SCHWARTZ: It's Dahill.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: Dahill. And, uh, uh, my father, I said, was very instrumental in that synagogue -- a founder in it. But he, uh -- he got out of that synagogue. 62:00He didn't like some of the politics. He -- my father was a very straight shooter, and, uh, he just -- you know, uh, all these organizations have a lot of politics in them --

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- and -- and -- and he couldn't -- he couldn't stomach the politics.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: So he drew away from that particular synagogue.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: Although my sister was married here in -- let's see -- nine- 1929, she was married in at Ocean Parkway Jewish Center.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm. And so is your -- what was your religious upbringing like? I mean in terms of Reform, Conservative-- you know?

E. SCHWARTZ: Well, we were -- I -- I was, uh, [clears throat] not that involved. [coughs] Pardon me. [coughs] Since my father didn't influence me, uh, regarding, 63:00uh, Judaism.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: He just -- uh, he thought Judaism. He didn't teach it, or he -- you could see by his actions he was very honest and straight, and that's what was presented to me --

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- rather than religion somewhat.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: Although he -- he was ver- basically on his own very religious, but he didn't impose anything.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm. So you didn't -- did you grow up going to synagogue?

E. SCHWARTZ: No. I --

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- didn't go -- go to -- I -- I didn't go to the synagogue at all.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: I just -- my very first years, 'til I was six or -- six or seven.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: But I knew I was Jewish --

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- because I had a tremendous exam- example in my father.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: But he didn't -- he didn't interfere, or didn't -- he didn't try to influence me or -- or whatever.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: So-- I grew up like, uh, Topsy. [laughter]

B. SCHWARTZ: [laughter]

SULLIVAN: Who is that?

B. SCHWARTZ: Topsy. It -- that's an expression. It means, um, uh, uh, no, um-- [laughter] what -- what does it mean? No rules.

SULLIVAN: Ah!

B. SCHWARTZ: You know, "do what you want" --

E. SCHWARTZ: No --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- kind of thing.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- regulations.

SULLIVAN: Uh-huh.

B. SCHWARTZ: No rules.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: I had wonderful parents. Uh, tremendous.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: I can't hear you.

SULLIVAN: Um, and so --

B. SCHWARTZ: Oh --

SULLIVAN: -- so you have --

E. SCHWARTZ: Uh, we can't hear now.

SULLIVAN: Hello?

B. SCHWARTZ: Yes.

E. SCHWARTZ: Wait a --

B. SCHWARTZ: I can --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- minute.

B. SCHWARTZ: -- hear.

SULLIVAN: OK. Um, well, this has been wonderful. Is there -- is there --

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

SULLIVAN: -- anything else that, um -- that -- that you can remember that you would like to have as part of this document that I haven't --

E. SCHWARTZ: Well --

SULLIVAN: -- asked about?

E. SCHWARTZ: -- well, except that I'm a dyed-in-the-wool Brooklynite -- Brooklynite.

SULLIVAN: Yes.

B. SCHWARTZ: [laughter]

E. SCHWARTZ: I still can't get the Brooklyn out of me.

SULLIVAN: [laughter] That's great.

B. SCHWARTZ: And me -- and me, too. I have an accent between Jersey City and Brooklyn.

SULLIVAN: Uh-huh. [laughter]

B. SCHWARTZ: [laughter]

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

B. SCHWARTZ: Down here --

E. SCHWARTZ: I -- I --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- down here, they --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- I think --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- make --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- one of --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- fun of me.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- the greatest accomplishments was getting her out of Jersey City.

SULLIVAN: [laughter]

B. SCHWARTZ: [laughter]

SULLIVAN: And so are there other Brooklynites in Florida?

B. SCHWARTZ: What is that?

SULLIVAN: Do you know other Brooklynites in Florida?

B. SCHWARTZ: No.

E. SCHWARTZ: No. Not really.

B. SCHWARTZ: No.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: Not really. No.

E. SCHWARTZ: Florida is -- is pretty desolate as far as we are concerned.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: We're old people --

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- and, uh --

B. SCHWARTZ: Oh, yes.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- people don't like old people.

SULLIVAN: Aww. [laughter]

B. SCHWARTZ: Yes.

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. You know who our -- our friends are? The doctors and the nurses. [laughter]

E. SCHWARTZ: They're all so great. We think so, because --

B. SCHWARTZ: [laughter]

E. SCHWARTZ: -- we have a very, uh, um, limited scope.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: You know, you get older, and you're -- I don't want to disillusion you; I -- I -- I don't mind being old. But you have a different attitude 66:00towards, uh, what's happening. Especially if you have all -- all your marbles, you can see what's going on and evaluate it, and -- and sort of enjoy it. But -- even though you're not involved with people, you -- you are watching. In other words, uh, watching with an open mind and a lot of experience.

SULLIVAN: Yeah. And wisdom.

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. Well, you know, uh, I -- I myself moved around plenty. I worked for the government in a place called Sidney near Birming- Bingham- Binghamton, New York.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: And then from there, I -- I was drafted in the Army, and, uh, I went through, uh, uh, also sort of, uh, different Army ca- A- Army ca- Air Force camps. Uh, and I ended up in, um -- where? Not -- not -- not Utica.

B. SCHWARTZ: Sidney. Sidney.

E. SCHWARTZ: No. Well --

B. SCHWARTZ: Oh.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- I worked for --

B. SCHWARTZ: I don't know

E. SCHWARTZ: -- the government in Sidney, a little town called Sidney.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: But the, uh -- but -- but -- but, uh, Mag- uh, Scintilla Magneto [Division of the Bendix Aviation Corp.] had a plant there, and that's where the government sent me. Then when I got into the service, I ended up in, uh, uh--

B. SCHWARTZ: Well -- well --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- oh, uh, in Alabama. Uh -- no, Georgia. In Georgia. And then from in -- in Georgia, I went to, um, uh--

B. SCHWARTZ: She is really not interested in --

E. SCHWARTZ: Wait a minute. I went to, uh -- where is the capital at? I [laughter] can't --

B. SCHWARTZ: Washington.

E. SCHWARTZ: Washington.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: [clears throat]

B. SCHWARTZ: All right.

E. SCHWARTZ: From there --

B. SCHWARTZ: That's enough.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- and from there, I -- no, I wanted to say. From there, I, uh, was shipped out, out, and I went to, uh, in New York state, uh, a- above, uh, Utica, 68:00whatever the first -- I can't think of the name.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: See, names are s- are starting to slip by me, and it's getting very annoying.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: I'm sorry to be this way.

SULLIVAN: Oh, it's -- I totally understand.

E. SCHWARTZ: And I -- I have too many senior moments like that.

SULLIVAN: [laughter]

E. SCHWARTZ: But, uh, and then I was shipped from there to Pari- uh, ten miles out of Paris. Would you believe it? I had a terrible Army experience doing all sorts of drudgery, and they ignored my college degree, and, uh, they just bypassed me [clears throat] because I came in late.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: And then when I got to, uh, a place, uh, ten miles out of Paris, uh, headquarters -- and the headquarters of the U.S. Army/Air Force, I was probably one of five enlisted men. All of them were -- were -- were officers, 69:00and they were demanding -- and in a nice way -- they couldn't do anything on their own without an enlisted man. So I was put in charge of their Jeeps, and also I -- I could go wherever I wanted, so I used to go to Paris every -- every week, as long as I took an officer with me.

SULLIVAN: Oh!

E. SCHWARTZ: I had a wonderful time after having a lousy time.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: And I was safe, in a way. We were right outside the battlefields. I -- I think I got a battle star, but it wasn't important. I wasn't involved too much. I was in headquarters' headquarters, which is a fantasy. You know, these people, the top officers in the -- in the Army, have all sorts of goodies presented to them.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: And they sh- they shared some of it. It was good.

B. SCHWARTZ: Let me ask you. Um, uh, did Jack Cohen agree to a -- an interview?

SULLIVAN: Well, yes, but, um, uh, sadly, it -- we -- as you probably remember, the letters went out, um, and then right when I was beginning to schedule with --

B. SCHWARTZ: Right.

SULLIVAN: -- people, that's when --

B. SCHWARTZ: Right.

SULLIVAN: -- Marian passed.

B. SCHWARTZ: Right.

SULLIVAN: And so, um, I haven't contacted him.

B. SCHWARTZ: Oh.

SULLIVAN: Um, but I -- I plan to, but I --

B. SCHWARTZ: OK.

SULLIVAN: -- figured in -- in, you know, a few weeks.

B. SCHWARTZ: Yes. Yeah.

E. SCHWARTZ: Well, he'll have a -- a pretty -- he has got a very good memory.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: Does he?

E. SCHWARTZ: And he is -- can talk beautifully.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: He was a salesman.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: And, uh, uh, he'll give you a pretty good scope of where we failed in telling -- he'll ma- he'll make up really -- he was --

B. SCHWARTZ: And -- and --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- he was a p- president of the -- I -- I had re- as a matter of fact, recommended him as president --

SULLIVAN: Oh!

E. SCHWARTZ: -- of the Synagogue. So he was the president for maybe two or three terms.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: And he was very -- along with me, we -- at the very beginning, we 71:00worked like dogs, just --

B. SCHWARTZ: Oh, yeah.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- we just --

B. SCHWARTZ: Oh, I'll --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- keep-

B. SCHWARTZ: -- give you a funny story --

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- keeping --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- talking --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- the Synagogue --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- about that.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- together.

B. SCHWARTZ: We ran these huge rummage sales, and we stupidly said, uh, "We -- we'll pick up your stuff."

E. SCHWARTZ: You know, Jack and I --

SULLIVAN: Uh-oh!

E. SCHWARTZ: -- said --

B. SCHWARTZ: Yes.

SULLIVAN: Uh-oh! [laughter]

B. SCHWARTZ: Uh-oh. And they -- those two went --

E. SCHWARTZ: And --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- into people's attics.

SULLIVAN: [laughter]

E. SCHWARTZ: Oh, and climbing --

B. SCHWARTZ: And -- and --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- to get there.

B. SCHWARTZ: -- climb- and -- and it was a terrible, terrible thing.

SULLIVAN: I can imagine that --

B. SCHWARTZ: Yes.

SULLIVAN: -- must have been --

B. SCHWARTZ: Yes.

SULLIVAN: -- a lot of work. [laughter]

B. SCHWARTZ: Yes. Yes, yes.

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

B. SCHWARTZ: And Jack and Gene used to do that.

E. SCHWARTZ: I was a pretty strong --

B. SCHWARTZ: [overlapping dialogue; inaudible]

E. SCHWARTZ: -- guy, and -- and Jack is quite an athlete.

B. SCHWARTZ: [laughter]

E. SCHWARTZ: So we got along pretty --

B. SCHWARTZ: Yes.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- good.

SULLIVAN: Uh-huh.

B. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. Ask him about that.

SULLIVAN: I will.

B. SCHWARTZ: Yes.

SULLIVAN: I definitely will.

B. SCHWARTZ: Yes.

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

B. SCHWARTZ: I forgot that story.

E. SCHWARTZ: That rummage, we needed so badly, we did anything to -- to get the rummage in.

SULLIVAN: [laughter]

B. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, yeah. It was -- it was very good. It was satisfying --

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: -- you know, for us.

SULLIVAN: Mmm-hmm.

B. SCHWARTZ: Yes. Well, nice talking to you. You don't need me anymore, right?

SULLIVAN: No, this has been --

E. SCHWARTZ: I --

SULLIVAN: -- great. So I just want to -- I'll let you know that I will be -- I will mail you, um, two release forms for you to sign --

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. Sure.

SULLIVAN: -- um, and so that this can be placed in the archives at the Synagogue, and also here at the Historical Society. And then I'll also send you -- when I get the release, I'll send you a copy of the interview for your own --

B. SCHWARTZ: Yes.

SULLIVAN: -- archives.

B. SCHWARTZ: That's what --

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

B. SCHWARTZ: -- I'd like.

E. SCHWARTZ: And --

B. SCHWARTZ: Uh --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- clean it up a little --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- uh, uh, uh -- yeah, [laughter] clean it.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- all my -- all my errors and -- and forgetfulness.

SULLIVAN: Oh, no! Don't worry about that. That's a -- this is -- that's -- I do interviews all the time, and that's always --

E. SCHWARTZ: I don't know what she's --

SULLIVAN: -- part of it.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- saying.

SULLIVAN: I mean, it's just a natural --

B. SCHWARTZ: Yes.

SULLIVAN: -- part of memory --

B. SCHWARTZ: OK.

SULLIVAN: -- you know?

B. SCHWARTZ: Oh --

SULLIVAN: So --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- all right.

SULLIVAN: -- don't worry --

B. SCHWARTZ: Yes.

SULLIVAN: -- about that at all.

B. SCHWARTZ: OK. Now, let me ask you something.

SULLIVAN: Sure.

B. SCHWARTZ: If I don't like something that, uh -- [phone hangs up]

SULLIVAN: Hello? Hello? Hello?

E. SCHWARTZ: Hello!

SULLIVAN: Hello! Oh, you dropped out. I didn't hear what you said.

E. SCHWARTZ: Uh --

B. SCHWARTZ: Oh.

E. SCHWARTZ: -- well, no -- that's Bernice.

B. SCHWARTZ: Uh, something pressed -- I don't know. Um, if -- if -- say we don't like something that we've said.

SULLIVAN: Yes.

B. SCHWARTZ: Can we tell you and you'll correct it?

SULLIVAN: Yes.

B. SCHWARTZ: OK.

SULLIVAN: Definitely. And if there is some part -- if you want the interview -- it -- it belongs to you, so if there is a part that you want --

B. SCHWARTZ: Yes.

SULLIVAN: -- to have closed, you know, like, "Please close this part of the interview until" --

B. SCHWARTZ: Yes.

SULLIVAN: -- you know, "this future date" or whatever --

B. SCHWARTZ: Oh?

SULLIVAN: -- um, we can do whatever you want.

B. SCHWARTZ: O- oh. OK.

SULLIVAN: Uh --

B. SCHWARTZ: All right.

SULLIVAN: -- but if there is a part that you want cut out or deleted --

B. SCHWARTZ: Yes.

SULLIVAN: -- or --

B. SCHWARTZ: Yes.

SULLIVAN: -- y- you know, added a little amendment or whatever --

B. SCHWARTZ: Yes.

SULLIVAN: -- anything that --

B. SCHWARTZ: Yes.

SULLIVAN: -- you want.

B. SCHWARTZ: Yes.

E. SCHWARTZ: You know, we can edit and s- and -- and send it back?

SULLIVAN: Yes.

E. SCHWARTZ: OK.

B. SCHWARTZ: Good enough. Thank you!

E. SCHWARTZ: A very, very lovely, uh, lady you are.

SULLIVAN: Well, thank you! It was wonderful --

E. SCHWARTZ: Uh-huh.

SULLIVAN: -- talking with you. Thank you so much for doing this interview.

B. SCHWARTZ: Yes.

E. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

B. SCHWARTZ: OK. It was --

E. SCHWARTZ: Thanks --

B. SCHWARTZ: -- our --

E. SCHWARTZ: -- a lot.

B. SCHWARTZ: -- pleasure. Thank you.

SULLIVAN: All right.

B. SCHWARTZ: Bye-bye.

SULLIVAN: Bye!