Frank Siragusa

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Hello.

SADY SULLIVAN: Hello, Mr. Siragusa. This is Sady from the Historical Society.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Yes, hello Sady.

SADY SULLIVAN: Hi, how are you?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Okay, good.

SADY SULLIVAN: Um, so, I am recording this conversation so that we can include it in the Navy Yard's archives and the Historical Society's archives. Do I have your permission to do that?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Yes you do.

SADY SULLIVAN: Okay, great, thank you. Um, and so, I will formally start the interview. Um, today is June 24th, 2008. And I am Sady Sullivan from the Brooklyn Historical Society. Um, I am speaking with Frank Siragusa. And if you 1:00would, um, introduce yourself to the recording however you'd like?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Can I ask you a question regarding the uh Yard?

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, sure.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Yeah it's, uh, closed down I would assume.

SADY SULLIVAN: The Yard was decommissioned um and right now they have a lot of, um, of tenants. They have a big film studio --

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Oh they have --

SADY SULLIVAN: -- Steiner Studios.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Oh I see. That's in -- so that's being changed into a residential area.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah, it's being changed into more of a business area. There's a big film studio there. Um, and actually the -- this oral history project is, um, because -- well, it's going to be part -- they're building, uh, a history center --

FRANK SIRAGUSA: That's great.

SADY SULLIVAN: -- in one of the, um, in one of the buildings that they're going to, um, they're going to renovate one of the older buildings, turn it into a history center, and this archive will be part of that.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Okay, um, let's see. Okay, uh, see I -- I had -- 1944 I -- uh, I 2:00asked my father, you know, to sign me into the Navy. I was only sixteen. But he wouldn't do it. So I did the next best thing. I worked -- I -- I quit school and -- and, uh, went down and applied to the Navy Yard to work, so I could work, you know, with, uh -- on the ships, uh, meet the sailors, etc., etc. Now the kind of work they gave me, uh, was, um, painting. And, uh, I, uh, I realized -- they told me to be very careful. I remember that. And wear gloves, because it, uh, it was lead paint.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, goodness.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Yeah. And, uh, I didn't think anything of it. I'll tell you, I belonged to an athletic club where I lived. And I lived up, uh, uptown New York, 3:00Manhattan, on 106th Street, and I used to take the subway from 103rd, uh, to, uh, to -- to get to the Brooklyn Navy -- Navy Yard. I think it was just one train trip, which was nice. You know?

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Yeah. But I had dropped out of, uh, school at ninth grade -- after I graduated from ninth grade, because I was upset, and I did -- I wanted to do this kind of thing. Anyway, uh, ahem, I had calluses on my hands and sometimes the calluses with, oh -- so, um, what had happened, I got some kind of infection, uh, after a couple of months doing that. Because I -- first I would do it all below the ship, you know, uh, the, uh, the hull. And then I would -- 4:00or I would do it, uh, around, uh, you know the -- the, uh, the bow and so on all the way to the, uh, stern with this paint. And I was pretty good. I was a good worker. Because they commented about that. But these calluses opened and my right -- uh, left hand blew up. You know it got very infected. So I had to go to the hospital. And what was interesting, I hadn't realized, but in the hospital they would -- when they tore open -- you know they cut, the, uh, where in between the fingers there where the real infection was, they didn't close it. What they did is they were draining my, uh, hand from the whole week. They would -- every day they would drain for a couple hours with hot water to drain whatever lead poisoning I had. And after a couple weeks I went back to work. But 5:00this time they -- they sent me, uh, to someone who was a trompe l'oeil, uh, painter.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Because in the -- uh, on the bridge, uh, on the ships, uh, I guess the captains would ask for some kind of fancy, uh, woodlike, uh, painting. That's what trompe l'oeil is. I guess it wasn't called trompe l'oeil at that time. But my wife is an artist so she would -- and that's how I've learned it. And my daughter also. So I learned about trompe l'oeil. And then I remember that's what I was doing. I would put in the flat coats or whatever else he asked me to do, and then he would do the fancy stuff on the bridge. And we would tint 6:00it. And I worked at the Brooklyn Navy Yard, let's see, six months. I think it was up until 1945. And then I, uh, I think I -- I kept bothering my father. And he said no, no, no, but then when the European -- uh, when Germany surrendered, then he said okay, we'll -- we'll do it. You know he -- then he decided, well, half the war was over. So he'll sign me in. Because at that point I was -- I was becoming seventeen. You know what I mean?

SADY SULLIVAN: Right. So you were --

FRANK SIRAGUSA: I still had to be signed in.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: So that's, uh -- so I volunteered in the Navy for four years and, uh, anyway that's the story. I lived, uh, with my parents down 106th Street. I had two younger sisters. My, uh, brother was the youngest one and he, 7:00uh, was born I think in nineteen -- yeah, 1943. So he was very young when I worked at the Borough -- at the Brooklyn Yard. Now that's about as much I can remember. Oh, yeah I did the -- I also paint, uh, painted the pipes. A little -- I didn't realize pipes had the, uh, asbestos coating.

SADY SULLIVAN: Right.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Oh God. And I used to be up on, uh, either on, uh, ladders or on the bunks where [inaudible] -- I'd just continue a pipe all the way as far as it can go, you know?

SADY SULLIVAN: This was on the ships?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Yeah on the ships.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Yeah. And that -- that's the story. I can't remember too much more.

SADY SULLIVAN: So when you were in the hospital was -- was that the, the hospital that's in the Navy Yards?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: No.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh okay.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: It was, uh, Mount Sinai.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh okay.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Right, close -- you know it was -- Mount Sinai I think was on Fifth Avenue on 105th Street or something. So it was relatively close.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Huh? Flower? Uh Park? Uh no, uh, Fifth Avenue. What was that house? What? Oh that's the flower, Fifth Avenue. Uh Fifth Avenue hospital? Okay. Anyway that's the story. Yeah that's where I was, ahem, for a couple of weeks. I was in a ward with child -- uh, mostly children who had, uh, rheumatoid arthritis or, uh, diabetes, I don't know, so it was interesting.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. And when we spoke earlier you said that, um, that you -- that there was some longer-term results from that infection.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Well yes, um, when I was about 72, 73, which is about eight -- seven, eight years ago, because I'm 80 now, uh, the, ahem -- I had a balance problem and I wanted a neurologist and he said "that's interesting." Uh uh heavy metals would do it.I lost -- I -- I had a balance, I couldn't stay on my feet. It was much worse than it is now uh because I've been doing a lot trying to improve the situation. So I don't end up in a wheelchair, you know?

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: I -- I just didn't want to, uh, be in a wheelchair. I use it to go around the property because I live -- I have an acre and a half down here, uh, almost. And I -- when working on the property I use the, uh, chair --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRABK SIRAGUSA: -- to get around because it, uh, because there, uh, you know, I 10:00might fall. Because there's -- nothing is level on the property. Goes up and down. Anyway, ahem, um, he had said that it was probably the result of heavy metals. But also he said "I al -- why is it that most of my veterans have this problem." They have low thyroid, which I have, a low thyroid, and they also have this. So -- and they're veterans so, uh, he said either was a chemical poisoning, uh, maybe from the shots or the gases that I was, uh, uh, you know I was exposed to, you know, during training, you know, where you had to go through mustard gas and different kind of gases to get to know what the smell was --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: --- to know how to protect ourselves. So -- so that's uh, so, it was interesting and I was with this doctor until he retired. He said it was -- it was the kind of thing that was just going to get worse. But I -- I -- I think I've been doing pretty well. I use the trampoline a lot.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh that's great.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Yeah I exercise on the trampoline. And I got to the point where I can almost, uh, I can uh jog on the trampoline while holding on to a rope from the ceiling.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow, that's great.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Yeah but, uh, that's -- that's what I do to stay on my feet.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: But I want you to know also that I, uh, it's a real job staying on my feet, especially when I go out. I have a walker when I go anywhere. I also have one of those, uh, uh, forearm canes because it's not only where you grip 12:00the cane at a handle but also uh has a uh support at the elbow.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh yes I know those kind.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: You know what they are. Yeah. So if I'm going shopping, because I -- I'm the shopper, because I'm the cook. [laughter] Because I'm a vegetarian, uh, by the way.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh how long have you been a vegetarian?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: That's -- yeah. 38 years, uh, early '70s.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh wow.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Not -- not because of health by the way.

SADY SULLIVAN: For moral reasons?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: I was a -- no, I -- I was a teacher, a high school teacher --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: -- music, by the way.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Um, and we used to -- we used to, uh, watch films that were, uh, prewatched --you know so the kids -- uh, so if it wasn't right for the kids we didn't show it. One time I walked in on, uh, one of the filming and I saw how 13:00the chickens, uh, produce eggs .

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Under 24-hour fluorescent lights, assembly line that went around and around and around. The -- and they were injected --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm- Mm-hm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: -- hormones, fatten them up. The other thing is they had no beaks. So I asked what happened, what happened to their beaks. And the, uh, teacher turned around, one of the teachers turned around and told me "well they're afraid" they would, uh -- the, uh, the owners would -- they were afraid the chickens would peck themselves to death, they were so unhappy. Well, after that I couldn't eat another chicken. And then it was just chicken, and I still 14:00ate meat and so on. Then I, uh, I began to think well maybe I should go the, you know, go the whole way. I decided to go the whole way. But I didn't like it. So I went back to fish.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: So in a sense I'm not a true vegan, you know what I mean?

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. That's actually -- that's my -- I -- I too am a vegetarian but I eat fish also. So pescatarian or whatever they want to call it.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Isn't that interesting?

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Is it true what they say that, uh, when they get caught, how the fish get caught, is it true that they don't feel the pain of the hook?

SADY SULLIVAN: I don't know. That's a good question. I don't know.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Okay. You know what? We have a pond here that we supplied with some fish. But I want you to know we got all kinds of fish in there, and they're huge, and we don't know where the hell they came from.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Happens is the gulls come and drop the, uh, the eggs. You know what I mean?

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: All right. Let me tell you something. I, uh -- the kids want to 15:00fish, want to fish. So I got poles and I used to put paperclips rather than hooks with -- and I'd put piece -- we'd put bread or crackers and so on. Do you know those fish jumped out of the water for the bread?

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

FRANK SIRAGUSA: But they didn't get caught.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Isn't that nice?

SADY SULLIVAN: That is. That is very nice.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: So paperclip is what did it. And they -- they were having a ball. They didn't care. They didn't even think about a hook or anything.

SADY SULLIVAN: Right. They just want to see the fish probably.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: See the fish and then let it jump. Oh they love the idea of it jumping out of the water real fast and everything else. But we also have snakes. So, uh, and you can see where the snakes are. They were hiding because they love the fish too.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Anyway it's, uh, and that's -- by the way here I'm giving you a whole story of -- and everything. See, I went -- I, uh, uh, after I came out of 16:00the service I went, uh, I had the opportunity of GI Bill of Rights, you know?

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: I went back to school to finish my education. When I was up, uh, when I was up in Alaska doing -- when I was in the Navy I finished my high school --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: -- equivalency. I took the test and passed. Uh, so when I came out I was able to go to, uh -- because I wrote music. I played and I wrote. So while I was in the Navy too, you know? And, uh, on that basis, uh, they accepted me at school. But they wanted me to take a number of courses at the New York College of Music before I went into the Manhattan School of Music for my degrees.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: And then I became a -- a teacher. First I was a musician but I didn't like it. I got married and I decided that we -- I should do something with more, uh, you know, substance to it. And I love -- I enjoy teaching. So I 17:00taught. And I was, uh, a band director for many years.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh. And so what instrument did you start playing?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: What?

SADY SULLIVAN: What instrument did you play firs,t or growing up? What got you interested in music?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Uh. Uh, piano.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: But off and on. I had no teachers until I was in the service.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Isn't that interesting? And then I took up the, uh, ahem, wind instruments. I was a flutist. Uh, I played in symphonies and so on, orchestras. And then I played clarinet and saxophone and I played in pit -- pit bands, you know, uh, stage bands, you know what I mean?

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: In other words, so, when I became a teacher, ahem, there were many times that people had shows in different places on Long Island and, uh, they didn't have enough students. They would always call teachers to come in to 18:00fill in, you know?

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh yeah.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: So if they had a musical that the students would be putting on they'd want to make sure they had ringers in the, uh, what, uh, in the music. So I played everything from bass fiddle to oboe.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, that's amazing, that's great. Do you still play music?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Now?

SADY SULLIVAN: Do you still play music now?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: I, uh, I -- see I got -- when I retired I said, no, I'd just started to teach. I mean, you know, privately.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: But uh I -- I -- I was determined to get an organ to play Bach.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Because I love Bach. And I got the organ, played Bach, oh, but until we moved down here, I couldn't take the organ with me. So I played on the piano. But off and on. There's six months I go, play the piano, Bach, Bach, I have Pachelbel, and you know who I'm talking about, Pachelbel?

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: You know who he is, right?

SADY SULLIVAN: Yes.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Yeah, all right.

SADY SULLIVAN: Pachelbel's Canon yeah.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: And well, I do love Bach. I -- I -- I've gotten all the way to the Partita, uh, Partitas. I love them. You know the Partitas?

SADY SULLIVAN: No, I don't.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: They're very -- the -- like the -- they're like English and French suites with only a little more difficult.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Because I went through the English suites and the French suites. I love the English suites. They're very nice. But the Partitas are the best. To me they're -- I love playing them. I can never -- every day I go from one to the other, one to the other, one to the -- I love playing it.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: And then, then I drop out for a year. I don't play again because my wife's the artist so I help her and I do a lot of stuff around the house and on the grounds. And, uh, ahem, and, uh, let's see, oh yeah, so I drop out and I 20:00don't play the piano for a while. Then all of a sudden I go back. I say you know I should look over some of my music and see, maybe I want to, uh, uh, redo them, you know, and I -- I -- I start getting hooked on that. Then all of a sudden I'm back -- back to first Pachelbel because they're, they're -- they're beautifully beautiful simple things. Or like early Bach but, uh, simpler and very characteristic of, uh, Pachelbel if you know his music.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Uh, these are the organ works. Uh, and I -- I only play them on the piano. And -- oh there we got off on that whole thing.

SADY SULLIVAN: That's fine. That's fine. Yeah actually let's go -- I have some -- I have some background questions. Um, so first let me just make sure I have your -- so for our records and stuff, um, that I have your name spelled right. 21:00It's S-I-R-A-G-U-S-A?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: That's right.

SADY SULLIVAN: Okay. And what's your --

FRANK SIRAGUSA: By the way when I taught I changed the, uh, G to a C.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh how do you mean -- oh wait, when you -- ?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: You know why? Because I was teased unmercifully in the Navy. I decided when I go into teaching I wasn't going -- I wasn't going to be a Gusa.

SADY SULLIVAN: Why? I don't -- I don't understand.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Well, you know because of the G. If you think of my name Siragusa --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: -- you know, uh, and they, uh, the southerners gave me a lot of trouble when I was in the service.

SADY SULLIVAN: Really? Why? I don't -- I still don't get it.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Gusa.

SADY SULLIVAN: What does Gusa mean?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Goosing somebody.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Ha!

SADY SULLIVAN: Okay.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: You're -- you're still young.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Anyway I decided to change the C to uh -- the G to a C so I went 22:00into teaching, it was fine.

SADY SULLIVAN: I see.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Never got teased. Because there are cities named after -- uh, Syracuse, New York, Syracuse, uh, Sicily, you know what I mean?

SADY SULLIVAN: Right. So how -- when you were teaching how did you spell your last name?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: With a C.

SADY SULLIVAN: S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Yes.

SADY SULLIVAN: Okay. Um, and then -- but now you're back to the G?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: I wrote a book and I put the G back.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: I wrote a book, uh, because I was into, uh, Buddhism at one time, you know?

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: I was so impressed with it that I, uh, wrote a book about it. Uh, poems.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Not about it, but about certain people, uh, that I came across in Buddhism.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh wow. What's the name of that --

FRANK SIRAGUSA: And then I graduated to Krishnamurti.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: He is -- he is the best.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Because he -- in other words he takes off from Buddhism and he goes.

SADY SULLIVAN: Um, and --

FRANK SIRAGUSA: I discovered him when I was -- in the 1950s.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh wow.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: You know who he is?

SADY SULLIVAN: Yes I do, um --

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Unbelievable.

SADY SULLIVAN: And so when did you discover Buddhism?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: I have -- by the way I have all his tapes and all his books.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Yeah. Anyway so I wrote, uh, these books and I wrote a number of, uh, novels and books and poetry and so on, you know?

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh wow. Um so -- so going back just to -- to background stuff, and then we'll -- we'll move forward from that, um, what is your -- what's your date of birth?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Uh, okay, uh, [date redacted for privacy], 1928.

SADY SULLIVAN: My birthday is [date redacted for privacy].

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Huh. My wife's is -- birthday is [date redacted for privacy].

SADY SULLIVAN: AH.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Yeah, so anyway what else would you like to know?

SADY SULLIVAN: Um, and so where were you born?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: New York City.

SADY SULLIVAN: In -- in Manhattan?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Yes.

SADY SULLIVAN: And you said before you lived on 106th.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: When I was working for the uh Brooklyn Navy Yard yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. So where did you -- is that where you grew up, on 106th Street?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: No. We lived, uh, we lived in Brooklyn, we lived, uh, Lower East Side I remember Tenth Street, and then we lived on, uh, 105th Street, and then we went to 108th Street and then went to 106th Street.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. On the East Side or West Side?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: East Side.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: That's when I, uh, when I left for the Navy. We lived on 106th Street.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Um, and where were your parents born?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Oh my mother was born in Ribera, Sicily.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: And my father was born in Lercara Friddi, Sicily.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: They met here --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: -- in the United States. They came before the First World War.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: And my father couldn't serve because he was the only breadwinner. He was working, uh, on custom shoes and the -- the -- all his, uh, brothers and -- uh, brother and sisters were all young and, uh, his mother, uh, my grandmother had passed away and my grandfather didn't work.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: So he was the only work. So he, uh, they didn't call him into the service in the First World War.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So he -- so he came over -- both your mom and dad came over to the States when they were quite young.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Yes.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, and so -- so in 1944 you were -- you were sixteen?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Mm-hmm. That's when I wo -- started with the Brooklyn Navy Yard.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeahm and so tell me about why you were -- you were -- you wanted to join the Navy. Tell me why.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: I guess I wanted to get away.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: That's part of it. I didn't give you the, uh, yeah it was pretty brutal sometimes at home when the -- when your mother and father are fighting all the time

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Uh, it just drove me out of the house.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: [inaudible] And, uh, that was the, uh, that was the best way. Rather than just -- because I -- I ran away a number of times --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: -- from home and, uh, police would pick me up in Jersey or wherever I was and bring me back.

SADY SULLIVAN: Um, and so, but your -- but your parents wouldn't -- they -- why 27:00wouldn't your dad sign -- let you sign on to the --

FRANK SIRAGUSA: He didn't, he didn't -- well, he said he didn't want me dead.

SADY SULLIVAN: Right.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: He was very upset about it.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: He didn't. Although I -- I felt the Navy would be a lot safer. But I was wrong. I thought it was -- but I didn't want to be in a foxhole.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: I said if I was going to be somewhere let me be aboard ship. If it's going to happen let it happen there, uh, why should it be in a ditch somewhere, you know? I didn't like that.

SADY SULLIVAN: Right, right. And so how did you hear about, um, how did you -- when, you know, when you couldn't join the Navy because you were too young and your dad wouldn't sign for you, how did you come up with the idea of going to work at the Navy Yards?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Um, that's a good question. You know something? I can't remember whether somebody had, uh, gave me the information or maybe the school did.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: I'm not quite sure.

SADY SULLIVAN: And what -- what school were you -- were you going to then?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Well, at that time I was at junior high school, 108th Street, went to the -- went to the ninth grade. And when I finished -- I finished the ninth grade and they had just built, uh, uh, Benjamin Franklin High School on 116th Street.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Very low -- very near the East River, you know?

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Beautiful school but I didn't -- I didn't want it. I didn't like school. But I loved it later.

SADY SULLIVAN: And so do you remember, um, how you -- like coming down to the Navy Yard to apply or -- or however -- how you did that?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: No.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Well I -- apparently I could read and write.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: So I was able to do that and they accepted me as an apprentice because I -- I had no other skills.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: You know what I mean?

SADY SULLIVAN: Right. You were young.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Well yeah. I worked after school, like I worked in drugstores 29:00delivering, uh, and I worked in grocery stores uh you know what I mean?

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Uh, for a few hours, u,h like three, four hours just to earn some money, because we were pretty down. I went through the Depression and it was pretty bad.

SADY SULLIVAN: Right.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: You know I remember being on a home relief line for food.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: You know, with my mother.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: And my father was breaking his chops, uh, working on the, uh, road gangs with, uh, New York City. You know?

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: That was with WPA.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Until his asthma got him. Then he had to stop.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: So --

SADY SULLIVAN: What did he do after that?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: So -- glad that I was working. You know least, uh -- I was the oldest in the family so I could earn a little. And believe me, a buck went a long way at that time.

SADY SULLIVAN: Right.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: You know, I used to shine shoes on Saturday morning or Sunday morning and earn a buck, buck and a half, uh, spend a few hours there, and, uh, bring it home.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Did you, um, did you have to turn over your wages to your family?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: I did. Sure.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: I didn't -- I wasn't, uh, a big one for money you know. Uh, and my mother would always give me a quarter or something, uh, so I can -- for the whole week, and I was able to go to the movies, I'd be able to buy some things and so on and so forth.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Um do you remember what you were paid at the Navy Yard?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: No, I have -- I can't even remember that.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Might go through the records.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: I don't know if they have records or not. I have no idea what I was paid. That was a long time ago. I --

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh I understand. Um, so who were the people that you were working with?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Oh, the uh -- I was an apprentice to these painters.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Real professional, they were very good.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: They taught me everything, uh, which I didn't listen to, especially with the gloves.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: I -- well I think it was that the paint got on the gloves and then I -- I would remove the gloves and get it on my hand which I cleaned it off and I never did it that, uh, you know, that well a job.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, and who was your supervisor?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: I couldn't -- I can't remember. All I know is that, uh, the one person that made an impression on me was the trompe l'oeil, uh, professional.

SADY SULLIVAN: Right.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: He was the one that did the decorations on the bridge, you know, made, uh, uh, the wall, uh, which was iron look like wood.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh that's so neat.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: I can't remember his name, and who he was and so on. All I know 32:00is he did that kind of work, and that was a special kind of work, which intrigued me, but I was still -- I had -- the ocean was calling.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Was that something that they did on all ships? They would make -- paint the bridge?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: I think it was only if it was requested.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: That was the thing that I remember. If they did -- he said no uh it was only if it was requested because uh I guess some people didn't go in for it. You know? A ship is a ship; a bridge has to look like a bridge.

SADY SULLIVAN: Right, right. Um, and do you remember -- so you were working on the ships. Was there like a building or an area that was also part of your workplace?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Uh, yeah there was a locker where I'd change, uh, clothes.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: And, uh -- where -- etcetera. So it was one of the piers. And then I -- you know, I can't even remember what the Brooklyn Navy Yard looked 33:00like. I know there was a place where we had put our stuff and then changed into our clothes and get the other -- the -- the gloves and so on and then, uh, they would get, uh -- tell you where to go and give the equipment and -- and you would go and do it.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Do you remember coming in the gates?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Yes. I had to show passes, yes.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: With a picture. I think I had a picture and a pass.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Mm-hmm. And, uh, it was a long walk to get to wherever I had to go.

SADY SULLIVAN: Because you were taking -- you took the subway there.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Oh, the subway, and then I would run.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: I would run to the subway. It's interesting. And then when I got there I would run to the Yard.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

FRANK SIRAGUSA: That was, uh -- well, I was young.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah, yeah. Um, was there a shop number or a union number that you were part of?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Oh I can't even remember. No I didn't belong to a union.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, and did you notice -- what was the -- what was the mix of people that you were working with in terms of race and ethnicity?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Well you know something? There were very few apprentices like myself.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: I can't even remember any of them but I know there were a few. Mostly adults.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: That's where I worked. And when I was aboard the ship, uh, on the pipes and so -- inside, you know, I got acquainted with the sailors. But -- but only while they were there.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Then, uh, when the ship was finished it left.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: And, uh, that was the thing that, uh, thrilled me. Uh, I was very intrigued by the whole idea of, uh, ships.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: I'll tell you I got sick. When I got, uh, when I got in the Navy and -- and went on the ocean, I had no idea. And I -- you know what -- well the 35:00two things that hit me like a ton of bricks was the fact that I can -- that my bal -- I, I can get sick aboard ship number one, number two, how can they say the world was flat --

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

FRANK SIRAGUSA: -- when it was round, the horizon?

SADY SULLIVAN: It looked round to you?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Abso -- I could be on top of the bridge, you know, being on watch, and there was a ring! The horizon was a ring that went all the way around!

SADY SULLIVAN: Right, right.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: And -- and any time land came, it came up. Another ship came, first you saw the smokestack, and then you saw the ship. It had to be round!

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: How could they say it was flat?

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

FRANK SIRAGUSA: That -- that's the kind of thing that struck me. Then when up, uh -- we were up in the Aleutian Islands. I -- I saw the lights up there, you 36:00know, Northern Lights?

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh yeah.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Oh wow, fascinating. I kept calling an officer, say, "what's that, what's that, what's that," when we were first up there. And they would laugh and tell me what it was, because I had no idea.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh that's so neat.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: Um --

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Because we -- we patrolled the Aleutian Islands. I was on a seagoing tugboat and, uh, we only had three-inch gun and -- and antiaircraft and so on. But nothing was up there.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: They just wanted to make sure nobody gained a foothold, so we would go back and forth, back and forth on the Aleutian Islands.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. So tell me that part actually. So after you left the Navy Yards you -- it -- you were still not quite old enough for the Navy, right?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Yeah. Right.

SADY SULLIVAN: So then what did you do?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Well, I worked. Uh, let's see. I worked -- cheese factory.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, where was that?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Of course I love -- oh, somewhere in New York. I can't remember. Because I love cheese. [laughter] Uh, although I don't eat, eat it as much anymore. Anyway, uh, and then I worked, uh, one other place. In a dye place. This was a friend of a friend of a friend that needed help. Young man. Learned the business. So I said okay maybe okay who knows. So I went there. So it was just the two places that I can remember.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. And then, um, you -- then when you turned seventeen?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Mm-hmm.

SADY SULLIVAN: Or did you have to be eighteen?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: What? No, no, I turned -- I, I, -- bothering my father again. And he said okay.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Um, so you enlisted in the --

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Navy.

SADY SULLIVAN: In the Navy.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Four years.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh wow, four years.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Yeah, oh yeah, you couldn't enlist for two and whatever.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: By that time the, uh, the war was -- was drawing to a close already and -- and, uh -- you know?

SADY SULLIVAN: Right.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: And, uh -- because they didn't call me right away. They called me like a month or so, two months later. I can't remember exactly.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: I think they called me in July. Anyway --

SADY SULLIVAN: Um --

FRANK SIRAGUSA: -- anything else you'd like to know?

SADY SULLIVAN: Yes. So in terms of -- were there -- did you see any of the women who were working in the Yard?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Not a one.

SADY SULLIVAN: Really?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Well they worked in the offices and I -- unless I was going up there because, uh, uh, to fill out applications and so on I -- I saw women.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So you didn't see any of the -- of the women welders, the Rosie the Riveter, that --

FRANK SIRAGUSA: I'm sorry. I -- I missed what you said.

SADY SULLIVAN: You didn't see any of the women who were welders and working on the ships?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: No, be -- for the simple reason uh I would assume that was the building of ships. Repairing ships, it wasn't that bad. I think it was after they repaired them and then they brought them over to where the, uh, uh, the people who did the painting, I guess they moved them around. You know what I mean?

SADY SULLIVAN: I see. So you were -- the ships that you were painting weren't new ships, they were ships that had come in for repair.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Right. But they were already repaired with the welders and so on.

SADY SULLIVAN: I see. So the -- the painting was kind of the final touch.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Right.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: That I remember.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. What colors were the paint?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Gray, uh, like a, like a blue and gray and, uh, white. You know ship, uh, World War II camouflage --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: -- to make it look more like the ocean I guess.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Didn't work.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. [laughter]

FRANK SIRAGUSA: But, uh, but that's -- that's what they asked for, yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, and, so can you tell me again how -- how long? You were just there for about six months when your hands became infected.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: I would say six months or so yeah, because my -- my family was a little -- you know my hand, uh, took a long time to heal and also, uh, if I'm going to spill paint on-- I -- I remember I think I was asking to do something else. Oh! I remember doing something else.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: I worked also for the Hotel New Yorker. I was an electric -- oh before that, yeah, I was an electrician's help -- helper. You remember when the plane hit the, uh, Empire State?

SADY SULLIVAN: Yes.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Well, I was in the New Yorker and I went up on the roof to see. But it was such a foggy day I was only able to see the smoke.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh wow.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Because it's rather close. And -- it was kind of interesting, isn't it?

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: And I -- but I -- but I learned a lot about electricity, you know, like, being an electrician and so, uh, anyway, yeah. Yeah, so I remember that. Anyway yeah go ahead. Anything else?

SADY SULLIVAN: Um, and so, what are your -- your memories of the Yard in terms of the physical experience? The sights, smells, sounds?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Cranes -- the cranes, uh, the -- the, uh, the welding on the other side or wherever and -- you know, never where I was. You know the sparks where you paint. I guess they didn't want that kind of thing.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: You know?

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Uh, the water and, uh, ships and the Navy, uh, submarines, yeah. 42:00And mostly the workers, you know? That's -- that's the only thing I can remember. And the ships. Small. Uh, even destroyers. No -- I can't remember any battleships or anything like that, or aircraft carriers. Them I don't remember.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: It might have been a different place they went to. I don't -- I have no idea.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Uh, what about in terms of people? Like the social atmosphere? Eating lunch? Going out after work?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: You mean having lunch?

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: I think I took my lunch with me.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Yeah. So I would eat right there.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Wash my -- wash up and -- and eat.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: And that was it. But no, I, I -- there wasn't too much. As far 43:00as the adults, they didn't want us kids around.

SADY SULLIVAN: Right, right. You were -- you must have been so much younger than most of them.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Yeah and also I was -- I -- I weighed -- look, when I went into the Navy I was only about 118-19 pounds.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh wow.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Although I was five-eight-and-a-half, nine.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: I was very thin.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, so what would you say was one of your, um, your worst and best experiences at the Yard?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Well the worst was, uh, the infection.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Yeah, because that bothered me. You know it, it -- it hurt. And the best experience I had was -- well I, I would say working for the professional painter trompe l'oeil. He -- he was very funny too. We -- we talked a lot.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Philosophy. That's -- that's when I got very interested in philosophy and spirituality.

SADY SULLIVAN: Really?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Yeah from -- yes he would talk. Because I wasn't a -- I wasn't a -- even with my -- I would go to church, Catholic Church, only because I wanted to see how every -- how the girls dressed and, you know. [laughter] Yeah. But, uh, that, I was not a good Catholic, because I had questions the priest couldn't answer.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And -- and tell me more about this -- the trompe l'oeil artist. Where -- what was his background and why -- how did -- ?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: I have no -- no -- you know if he told me I can't remember. And I -- and I'm sorry I don't remember those periods. You know you -- you just think too late. When you want to go back to think about the way times -- I can remember the Depression more than I can remember the -- my experience in the, uh, the Navy Yard. Because it was just a job to carry me over until I was old enough to go into the service. And then I would learn. And I -- I thought it 45:00would help me when I was in the Navy. And I -- I was wrong. Heh.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh I see. So you thought you would pick up some -- some sort of naval skills.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Yeah, [inaudible] seamen, that's all, because, uh, I didn't play, uh -- interesting, I -- I had mentioned I played the piano and so on. But they didn't pick up on it and they didn't need, uh, I just said piano, I didn't say anything else, you know?

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um did you hang out with the sailors outside of the Navy Yard?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: No. Because they were older.

SADY SULLIVAN: Right.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Many of them were older.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. And do you know what they were up to?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: I'm sorry?

SADY SULLIVAN: Do you know where they would go to hang out? Like on Sands Street or --

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Yeah, the bars. There were bars around. Or -- or, uh -- I, I remember that some of them visited uh their friends' homes because a lot of them 46:00lived in New York.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, okay.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Manhattan, Brooklyn, Staten Island, you know, Queens, uh, Long Island, whatever. So the, uh -- because the ships I would say were relatively empty except for certain personnel that had to be there, you know?

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, so when the ships were coming in for repair, um, were the sailors on leave?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Yes. I would say they were on leave or they had different groups, uh, who would stand by. You know what I mean? They'd have a group, like, uh, uh, uh -- that would stand by in the event, I don't know, defending the Yard or whatever.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: And the rest would go and then they would come back and the others would go.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: I think that's it. You know I don't even remember how long each ship was in the Yard.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: I have no idea. My mind wasn't there.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Sorry to say.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Um, so back to the trompe l'oeil artist. I'm -- I'm curious about him. So how did your conversations about philosophy start?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Well, that's -- he got me on the, uh, kick of reading.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Because, uh, so -- and he would suggest certain works, uh, books and, uh, I would go out and get them and read them. And like, uh, famous sayings by famous people all through history. That was, uh, delightful and so on. And, uh, I wasn't a big one for history but I told you, uh, after I started reading then I -- I got very interested in history, you know?

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: I -- I was -- I got very upset the way we treated the American Indians. Uh, so when people say, you know, I'm -- we -- you're fighting for your 48:00country, I says "I'm not. I'm fighting for me and my family."

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Uh, maybe the country. But look what we did.

SADY SULLIVAN: Right.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: I didn't like that. Yeah like I -- I'll give you a for instance. Uh, my parents, uh, registered at Ellis Island, you know?

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: My brother -- I don't go there. My brother goes there because he's a big one into that. But I just saw a movie having to do with Sicilians coming over to the United States in 1913. Now this is -- this is around the time that my father and mother came. At different -- two different times, but much earlier.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: I want to tell you: it was brutal.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: It was not a happy time. You know, if you couldn't do certain intelligence tests they sent you back.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm

FRANK SIRAGUSA: If you couldn't read you had to prove you had some, uh, intelligence.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: How many people -- ? Everybody worked in the mines! My father worked in the sulfur mines. But fortunately he had good uncles over there and they taught, you know, taught him to read and write. So when he came here he could read and write, you know?

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: So -- and I remember because I took my father back. I hope you don't mind these side stories.

SADY SULLIVAN: No, not at all.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: I took my father back to the old country.

SADY SULLIVAN: To Sicily?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: In 1970s.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Only he and I went. My mother didn't want to go.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: So we went to the -- first we went to the town where he had relatives. Then we went to the town where he was born. I -- we found the place -- the shack he was born in. It was still up.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: It was a shack. Let me tell you.

SADY SULLIVAN: Was anybody living in it at that time?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: No it was a -- became like a warehouse or something.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Anyway then -- then we went to where my mother was born and we -- I -- I -- I saw my grandfa -- grandmother's brother. Looked just like my grandmother. And then when we were in Palermo, interesting enough -- now you got to remember he wasn't there for sixty years, okay? He hadn't been back to the old country in sixty years.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: We were long -- walking along the street and we're trying to figure out how we're going to find his relatives. Cousins and so on -- uncles and aunts. And he sees a woman across the street. Their streets are, are relatively narrower than what it is over here. And he stops, and I turn around 51:00and say what's the matter. Says, "it's my cousin", and he runs across the street and they embrace. He hadn't seen her since they were children and he recognized her.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh my goodness.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: So she naturally took us to her parents and so on. And they were way in the mountains, uh, because they -- they worked for the railroad in, uh, Palermo, Sicily, you know? So pretty well-to-do. So they had a mountain house of some -- they lived in Palermo but they had a place outside --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: -- where they would go. It was kind -- it was very interest -- and I got story -- that -- that story is really great. Uh, even in Lacan -- where he was born, we met his cousins there. That we -- we talked to a policeman and he immediately guided us to a relative. And Ribera, the same thing. Uh, a 52:00policeman. We -- we would go to the police station or we'd see the policeman. And he was a cousin of my grand -- my, my mother.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Like a distant cousin. There you go, you see? Isn't that funny?

SADY SULLIVAN: That's nice.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: So that was a great experience. Anyway, I don't know how I got off on that one. But, uh, that was the story of that.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: I thought it would be interesting. He remembering somebody sixty years. Here I can't even remember -- if I saw that, the professional painter on the street I probably wouldn't recognize him.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah. Yeah. Um, the -- the professional painter, was he -- was he in the Navy or was he a civilian?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: He was a civilian.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Oh yeah, no. I only worked for civilians --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: -- who worked for the Yard like I did. Now I was an apprentice. 53:00That's it. They had these professional people, you know.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: They -- they were real painters. I mean they worked hard, fast, you know?

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Do you know where most of them -- from -- from Brooklyn?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: The -- I -- most of them from Brooklyn and Manhattan.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: I don't remember anybody from Long Island or Queens.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Bronx maybe.

SADY SULLIVAN: Did they tend to be of any certain ethnicity or location?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Well yeah this, uh, professional painter was an Italian.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Not Sicilian but an Italian.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Because he would curse at me because I -- I couldn't speak to him in -- in Italian. I said well I understand Sicilian better than I understand Italian.

SADY SULLIVAN: Right, right, all the dialects.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Yeah, because my mother and father would only talk in Sicilian if they didn't want me to know what -- what was going on.

SADY SULLIVAN: O,h so you didn't -- you didn't grow up speaking --

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Except for, uh, when I was, uh, uh, when I was in, uh -- when I 54:00went back to college I took it.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh wow.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Yeah. See, my father could speak both dialects. So when we were in Italy he spoke Italian. But when we were in Sicily he spoke Sicilian.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: I'll tell you, Sicily was some place. I -- I -- I enjoyed Italy, but I loved Sicily.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: More Europeans visited and vacationed in Sicily than they did Italy it looked like --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: -- because more mountains, caves and whatnot, you know?

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Even went up to, uh, the volcano there. I went up to the top. My father didn't.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: It was -- what an experience, because it's still smoking and fire, you know?

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Interesting.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh amazing.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: I brought back something. I gave my children, uh, a lava ashtray. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Yeah. Anyway, I'm boring you.

SADY SULLIVAN: No not at all, not at all, these are great details. Um, I wonder if there's anything else about -- about the Yard that I didn't think to ask or --

FRANK SIRAGUSA: I -- I've tried to remember, I can't.

SADY SULLIVAN: Okay, well you've had lots of great memories and I'm -- I'm really particularly excited about the, um, the professional painter and -- and how he was the person who got you interested in these other philosophies. I think that's such a fascinating thing.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Right, right. Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Yeah that was it -- because even when I went into the service, every time we stopped somewhere I would raid the books, uh -- bookstores.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: And, uh, on philosophy.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. And when was it that you --

FRANK SIRAGUSA: That's why, when I came out of the service, I got very interested in Buddhism because I felt Buddha was the only one that understood 56:00what life was all about.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow. So that was really early on in terms of Buddhism in the States.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: On expectation.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: On attachment.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: I said there's nothing wrong with it, but if you're going to be attached, understand you're going to suffer.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: And if you're going to expect something and you don't get it you're going to be unhappy. Well, that's all right, but understand that's why the, uh -- that's why the unhappiness and suffering is there.

SADY SULLIVAN: Right, right.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: That opened up a whole new world.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow. And so what year was that around?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Well, I got out of the service in the early '50s.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow. So that's really --

FRANK SIRAGUSA: And, uh -- what?

SADY SULLIVAN: That's very early for Buddhism in the -- in the States.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Yes.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: And, uh, what -- well that's because I was reading a lot of it, not that I attended any Buddhist temples. There weren't any around.

SADY SULLIVAN: Right.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Uh, well although I -- I met and spoke to, uh, people, uh, in 57:00the Navy, uh, you know, who were into it. But very few people.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Um, let's see. So then I stayed home a whole year and then I applied to school.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: So I went to school. It took me a long time because I had to work, too. I worked on Wall Street. Oh there you go. I worked on the IBM machines in the mailroom on Wall Street in the '50s, uh, while I went to -- no, I worked at night, that's right. After the day was over on Wall Street I worked in the mailroom on the IBM machines and then during the day I went to college. And it took me seven years.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh wow.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: To get my, uh, master's.

SADY SULLIVAN: And that was a master's in -- in teaching or in music?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Music.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Oh.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Yes, so be, by -- by the time I went to work it was 1959 or something.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And where did you teach?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Uh, on Long Island. I was going to teach in New York City.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: But they were going to -- no instrumental, no band. So I said all right if -- but I said I -- I didn't say all right, right away. So what I did is I applied to Long Island, uh, for instruments. I -- I prefer the band, you know, rather than general music.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Because the, uh -- they already had a school for me on the West Side, Morningside Heights and so on, a public school.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: You know? Uh, and I wasn't crazy about it. Oh, they only did that I guess because I played piano well, you know what I mean?

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: So I could sing with the kids and so on.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: But I wanted the instruments, because I started to play the flute and, uh, I was getting around on the clarinet and so on when I was in the 59:00service. Uh, so what happened, this job on Long Island came around for the junior high, the band.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: And they were offering me more money for the -- than -- than New York City did.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: See, New York City at that time didn't have a union.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: So I -- I would have preferred to go stay in the -- in the city if they had given instruments or a band and a junior high. I didn't want -- although I would have taken junior, uh, elementary school band, you know, teaching. I wouldn't have minded that. But I didn't want the general music.

SADY SULLIVAN: Right, right. So did you end up having to move out to Long Island?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: I'm sorry?

SADY SULLIVAN: So then did you move out to Long Island?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: No. Um, no, the furthest that we moved was Rochdale.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: You know it, in Queens?

SADY SULLIVAN: Um--

FRANK SIRAGUSA: When it was first built.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: That's the first -- first we lived I think in Long Island City --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: -- uh, at a co-op there. Oh, Queensview West, that's what it was called. Right near the, uh, 59th Street Bridge on the Queens side.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: I -- that's where we lived in the early -- late '50s and '60s.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: And then we moved to Rochdale. And that's a -- I never went out to the Island.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. So where were your children raised?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Ahem, they were raised -- I'll tell you where. Oh, we also moved to Great Neck, that's right.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: So that's where the -- we -- Queensview West, the older ones, the child was born --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: -- uh, my older girl. And then Rochdale, uh-- No I -- that's 61:00right, Rochdale I think the other one was born. And then we moved to Great Neck.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Great Neck Estates. We were there for a while. Uh, for quite a while. We entered in the '50s.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: No, '60s. And that's where my, my children grew up, in Great Neck.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. And now where are you in Florida?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: We -- I -- it's called the Acreage.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Region is called the Acreage. It's right north of Royal Palm Beach.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. And how long have you lived there?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Ten years. Now the reason it's called the Acreage, it's the only, uh, it's --very few places in Florida that have land.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Everything is small.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: We wanted land because my wife, wife rescues animals, cats and dogs.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: You know? So we got this, uh, piece of land, uh, acre almost acre and a half, acre and a quarter plus. With a pond with fish and so on.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Built a pier and everything so the kids can go out there. With a gate so they don't fall.

SADY SULLIVAN: Right.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Over the -- you know, pond, that kind of thing, yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: Um, and do your -- do you have any family that still live in -- in Brooklyn or in the area?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: You know something? They all -- I would say in the past ten years they've all moved out.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Uh, my cousins moved to Jersey near Atlantic City and that family all moved. And the others moved to Long Island and eventually they all moved to Long Island.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: So, I have two aunts. My father's sisters. One lived to ninety-eight, ninety-nine.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: The other one now is getting close. She's ninety-seven or ninety-eight, I can't remember.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: My father lived to 95.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, that's great.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Yeah he was -- and my other -- my grandfather lived to ninety-seven.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh good genes.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: So I'm looking -- yeah but I have diabetes so I got to watch it.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah, yeah.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: My sister and I were the only ones that got diabetes.

SADY SULLIVAN: Huh.

FRANK SIRAGUSA. She got it before me. She died at seventy -- seventy-four.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: She was the younger sister.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: I was two years older than she.

SADY SULLIVAN: Huh.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: So she, uh -- and you know what was strange? The -- my wife said I must have had it earlier. I was tested, had a blood test about two months before my sister died.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Because I went to a doctor, they did a lot of blood tests, and 64:00he never saw anything having to do with sugar.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: After my sister died two months later my urologist -- I went there because I was getting an infection.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SULLIVAN: Fungus.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: He said hey, you got ketones in your urine.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: What are you talking about? He said you got to have a doctor check your sugar.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: You have 1,000 milligrams of ketones in your -- oh my God. I went right, uh -- I was sent right to the hospital right away.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: I was what? Seventy-five? Isn't that interesting?

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Seventy-six, because I'm two years older. She died at seventy-four, so I was seventy-six.

SADY SULLIVAN: And did she -- did she know about the diabetes before she -- before she passed away?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Oh, she got it about -- she was young, about forty years old.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, wow.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: After she gave birth to -- I think to her son.

SADY SULLIVAN: I was going to say, sometimes, yeah, pregnancy can do that.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Mm-hmm.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: It, it's interesting, my daughter, my eldest daughter, after the last one had a sugar problem but then it went away.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: So that was good.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: I told the both of them, my two girls, I told them to watch, you know, because of me.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: You know, so, anything -- any other questions?

SADY SULLIVAN: No, I think that's it. Thank you so much. This has been wonderful talking with you.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Oh, it was really wonderful talking to you, and I -- I -- I -- I'd like to ask you more questions about the Historical, uh, group. You're a volunteer group?

SADY SULLIVAN: Um, no actually I -- well, um, before --

FRANK SIRAGUSA: It's a foundation?

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah, there is. I work for the Brooklyn Historical Society and the Navy Yard, there's now the Brooklyn Navy Yard Development Corporation.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Yes.

SADY SULLIVAN: And, um, they have an archivist named Daniella Romano. And Daniella is the person who is, um, working to bring together everything for this historic center that they're going to open in one of the, um, in one of the historic buildings on the -- on the Navy Yard.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Mm-hmm.

SADY SULLIVAN: Um, and that's going to be open to the public. Not for a couple of years. But, um, it'll be open to the public, have an exhibit about the Navy Yards, um, and all of the -- you know, the long history of the Navy Yards before they were decommissioned in the '60s and then other places in the Yards, um, are -- are being rented to different, um, different, uh -- mostly -- mostly businesses. So there's the, um, Steiner Studios, which is a movie production place. I think that they're having a postproduction movie place somewhere else in the Yards. Um, there are all kinds of businesses there. Um, so they're really trying to make it, um --

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Sure.

SADY SULLIVAN: Uh, a more --

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Convenient and everything.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah I mean it's a great location and so the historic center is -- is a project that's really exciting. It's going to be a really neat --

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Is it going to have a marina as well?

SADY SULLIVAN: Um, no -- for actual -- for ships?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Yeah for boats.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah, no, I don't think so. I don't think so. Although you know I might be wrong on that because I know that some of the dry docks are actually still functioning.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Yeah? Isn't that interesting?

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah, and so I think that the -- you know, it's no longer naval but, um, I think some of the dry docks are still being used, um, you know, for ship repair, privately. Yeah, which is really neat. Um, but I don't know too much about that. They -- basically, the Navy Yards came to the Historical Society here and said hey, you know, do you want to partner with us on this project and -- and help us with the archives and with collecting oral history. So that's what -- that's where I come in.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Yeah, listen, I wanted to -- uh, would you know how many people, 68:00uh, have you people, uh, recorded so far?

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, maybe seven or eight.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: That's it?

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Uh, do you have a lot of responses so far?

SADY SULLIVAN: Um, we got maybe ten -- from the -- did you see the ad in the paper?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: No, my brother did.

SADY SULLIVAN: Your brother saw the ad in the paper, yeah.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: He called me. He remembers.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: I worked there. That's -- so, you --

SADY SULLIVAN: That's great. I'm so glad that he spread the word, because that's the hard thing, is that since --

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Yeah, because people move away unfortunately.

SADY SULLIVAN: That's it. And since the Yard has been decommissioned.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: If you were able -- if you were able to you can -- should pick certain areas in the country and, uh, like California maybe --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: -- and then Florida especially.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: There are two big papers down here. Maybe you can put something in.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, tell me, yeah. Where -- which Florida papers?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Yeah the, uh, Palm Beach Post.

SADY SULLIVAN: Palm Beach Post.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Is one.

SADY SULLIVAN: Uh-huh.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: And the other one is the Sentinel.

SADY SULLIVAN: The Sentinel. The Florida Sentinel?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Yeah, I think it's something Sentinel. Oh. Uh, I'm sure it'd be no problem because Miami has a, uh, paper as well.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah, that's a great idea.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Broward County has a paper; the Sentinel I think is Broward County. Palm Beach Post is, uh, is Palm Beach.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: And there's a paper in Miami. I don't remember. Miami Tribune? I'm not quite sure.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah, that's a really good idea. And where's the other place -- you would suggest -- um, where else do you think that people maybe went to?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Uh, California.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Arizona!

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, Arizona.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: A lot -- a lot of retirees going to California because it's dry.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yup.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Okay?

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah that's a great idea.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: California, Arizona. Um, maybe New Mexico.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Florida and, uh -- oh, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: That's become -- although I don't know about those areas as of late.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm. What about -- do people read like the -- the AARP Magazine and things like that?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: That's a good -- although I don't belong to -- I don't like that organization.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah, but do you think some people do?

FRANK SIRAGUSA: I -- I would say a lot of people do.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah, okay.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: They, they are -- yeah. Anyway Miss Sull -- you Ms. or Miss?

SADY SULLIVAN: Ms.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Okay.

SADY SULLIVAN: Um, let me actually get your address, because I can send you a copy of this interview on CD.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Wonderful.

SADY SULLIVAN: Okay.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Okay, here it is.

SADY SULLIVAN: Okay.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: [address redacted for privacy]

SADY SULLIVAN: Excellent. Thank you so much. It was lovely speaking with you.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: And lovely, uh, being interviewed by you.

SADY SULLIVAN: Excellent. Good, I'm glad.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Good luck with the project.

SADY SULLIVAN: Thank you. Yeah and if you -- if you happen to meet anybody who also worked in the Yard send them our way.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Never met in my life, never came anywhere.

SADY SULLIVAN: Really.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Anybody. Isn't that interesting?

SADY SULLIVAN: It really is, yeah, you'd think it's such a big place.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Yeah, for years there, people worked.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow, wow.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Anyway good luck again.

SADY SULLIVAN: All right.

FRANK SIRAGUSA: Bye-bye.

SADY SULLIVAN: Bye.