James Smith

SADY SULLIVAN:All right. So, this is rolling. And I'm just going to adjust your mic. So you can sit where you're comfortable --

JAMES SMITH:Okay.

SADY SULLIVAN:-- and this -- this will pick you up. It's a sensitive mic.

JAMES SMITH:Fine.

SADY SULLIVAN:So, um --

JAMES SMITH:Uh, I don't know how many questions of these I'm -- I'm going to be able to answer, but...

SADY SULLIVAN:That's fine. That's fine.

JAMES SMITH:We'll do what we can.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And, you know, I have questions. If there's stuff I don't think to ask, um, and, and any kind of -- like, don't be worried about tangents, and stuff that's not related to the -- like those things are great. Like any details and --

JAMES SMITH:Yeah. Mm-hmm.

SADY SULLIVAN:-- you know. So, um -- So I will, to officially start, today is June 27th, 2008, and I'm Sady Sullivan with the Brooklyn Historical Society, and this interview is part of the Brooklyn Navy Yard's oral history project. I'm here in Sayville, New York with James Smith. So if you would introduce yourself to the recording however you'd like to.

JAMES SMITH:OK. My name is, uh, James Smith. Usually go by the name of Jim Smith, and I live out here in Sayville for the past forty-five years -- probably longer, I guess.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:And what's your -- just for the archives, what's your date of birth?

JAMES SMITH:[date redacted for privacy]-27.

SADY SULLIVAN:And where were you born?

JAMES SMITH:Canarsie.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Um, and --

JAMES SMITH:You, you've heard of that before? Canarsie?

SADY SULLIVAN:Oh yeah.

JAMES SMITH:Oh yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:Of course. [laughter]

JAMES SMITH:[laughter] Eh, being a New York City girl, you should know that, right?

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Okay.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Um, and were your parents from Brooklyn also?

JAMES SMITH:Yes.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:Where were they born?

JAMES SMITH:Uh, I know my dad was born in Manhattan, and my mother -- I honestly don't know where she was born.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:I don't know.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:But they're -- they're both American citizens. They're -- they're like maybe -- I think my father was a second generation, and my mother was third 2:00generation, I think.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. And where -- what's their ethnic background?

JAMES SMITH:Uh, my father was 100% Irish, and my mother was, uh, German.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so did you grow up in Canarsie?

JAMES SMITH:Yes. We did. Yup.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Uh, we lived there 'til I was, I guess, about seventeen years, or about that, and, uh, my dad wanted to retire from the [laughter] -- we call it the street cleaning department. Back then that's what the, uh, sanitation department was called, Str -- Department of Street Cleaning. And he wanted to retire, and I was still working at the Brooklyn Navy Yard, and, um, my parents and I took a ride out to Long Island here, out to the woods, and you know, dirt roads and all. And we found a little -- a house in a town called Medford, which is just maybe six miles east of here. And, um, they bought the house, and, uh, I had to quit the Brooklyn Navy Yard to come out there, and, uh -- and here we are.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:But it was a journey that, uh, you know, uh -- dad wanted it -- he wanted to retire from that. In fact, it's the old fashioned story where I want to retire, and open up a gas station, which is exactly what he did.

SADY SULLIVAN:Very nice.

JAMES SMITH:Yeah. My mother worked across the street, uh, for Wonder -- Wonder Bread Bakery. So she got out of the side door, walked across the street, and went to work, and my father went out the house, and went to work at the gas station.

SADY SULLIVAN:Oh nice.

JAMES SMITH:Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:So that must have smelled good living across the street from the Wonder Bread.

JAMES SMITH:Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:It was good.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:It was a good life. I enjoyed it.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Um, so tell me how you came to work at the Navy Yards?

JAMES SMITH:Well, what had happened, I was, um, declared 4-F by the, uh -- the Army.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:So I couldn't get in the service. So, um, I thought, "Why don't I 4:00get the next best thing?" I went down to the Navy Yard, applied for a job, and I got hired. [laughter] Just like that. Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Mm-hmm.

SADY SULLIVAN:What was the job that you applied for?

JAMES SMITH:Uh, I don't know what I applied for, but I wound up being an outside machinist.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Uh, and, uh, we were working on installations on, I think, the f -- one of the -- one of the boats I remember is the, uh, uh, it was a cargo vessel, and they were doing an overhaul on it, and it was in a dry dock, and, uh, we were installing machinery. And at my age, I was like a gofer.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH: You know?

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:[laughter] The older guys would give me a tool check. I'd run down to get to the tool crib to get their structural tools for them, and, uh, helped them where ever I could. I was like, uh, an apprentice trainee, and, um, that's what I did.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. So had -- did you have work experience before -- before 5:00getting this job?

JAMES SMITH:Uh, no. I don't believe so.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:No. I was fairly young.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Yeah. What year was that?

JAMES SMITH:Uh, '44.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:I worked there '44 and '45.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. And so do you remember, um, who you applied with, or any of that?

JAMES SMITH:No. It's -- it's quite a while. I can remember no names at all.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:But I do have some memories. Like one I could offer -- I believe it was a -- a subway train, and, uh, I'm walking down the sidewalk to the entrance of the Navy Yard where the particular entrance was that I needed.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:And, uh, they had turnstiles where you'd have to walk through to get into gates, but in front of each turnstile was a Marine guard. And what you had to do, was open up your lunch box, and they would examine the con -- contents inside the lunch box, and if you had a thermos bottle, you had to actually 6:00uncork the thermos bottle and hand it to the Marine, and he would smell it -- make sure it wasn't alcohol or whatever -- cork it back up again, and give it to you. After your day's work, you'd come back, went through the gate, you opened up your lunch box, make sure there was no contraband hiding in there, and you went home. You did this thing day after day.

SADY SULLIVAN:Wow. How did that -- how did that feel, to be searched coming and going?

JAMES SMITH:Didn't bother me at all.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:No.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:I was an innocent kid.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:[laughter] Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Um, and so that was the process that everybody went through --

JAMES SMITH:Yes.

SADY SULLIVAN:-- coming in and out.

JAMES SMITH:Yeah. Mm-hmm.

SADY SULLIVAN:Wow. Um, and then did you have IDs, or anything like that?

JAMES SMITH:Yeah. And in fact, uh, we had our -- I think that the laminated pass was issued by their Co -- the USA Coast Guard.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:It had your picture on it, and you were standing in front of a, uh, uh, a height chart, so they would give you -- well, you're standing there, you 7:00took your picture, and it automatically gave you your height --

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:-- then they asked your weight. And, uh, other pertinent information.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:And that was your pass to get in. Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:Was there uniforms?

JAMES SMITH:No.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:No.

SADY SULLIVAN:So would you, um -- would you work in the clothes that you came to work in, or would you change into anything once you're there?

JAMES SMITH:Well, it would really depend on what you were doing. I mean, most of the time I would work in my pants that I came in. You know?

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:But if it was real -- that you really had, uh, some dirty job, you would scrounge up a pair of, uh, coveralls from someplace, or somebody, and, uh --

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:-- put them on.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Yup.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Um, and the train -- you said that you took the subway to get to work.

JAMES SMITH:I -- I think so. I'm not sure. Uh, I remember the 14th Street, uh, 8:00BM -- BMT, it, uh -- the train -- the last stop on the train was Canarsie -- Rockaway Parkway, in Canarsie.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:So I walked from my house to that tr-- train station, and from there, you know, I -- I don't remember the routes we took.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:But was it a -- was it a pretty easy commute to Brooklyn?

JAMES SMITH:Oh, yeah. Yeah. It was no big deal.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:If it was, I don't remember complaining about it.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:You did what you had to do.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Um, and who, in -- in terms of the -- the line to get in the gates, do you remember the atmosphere of the other people?

JAMES SMITH:Well, everybody was busy talking, and talking about what they did last night, or what they might be doing to work at, uh -- the next day, um. "Where are you working?" "Oh, I'm over here on dock 14." "Oh, I got to go to 34, or something." You know, just generally talking.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Nothing in particular.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. And what was the mix of people that were working in the Yards that you would see?

JAMES SMITH:Uh, to tell you the honest truth, all I ever saw was men.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:I don't remember any woman.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:They probably were there, but I didn't see 'em.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And what about, um, in terms of ethnicity, and...?

JAMES SMITH:Uh, I really don't know, but I would probably say there were 90% -- 99% white people.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:You know, I really don't recall any particular other color sticking out in my mind.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:I know the group that I worked with, uh -- my gang was all white people -- white men.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And of any particular background?

JAMES SMITH:No. Not that I can recall.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:It was just you went in. You had probably say a gang of five of six men, or seven men, with a leader. And, uh, you lined up. They told you what to do that day, and we just went to the boat you were assigned to, and you did your job.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And were most of the people you were -- If -- You were just about seventeen, so were most of the people older than you?

JAMES SMITH:Oh, yes. Definitely.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Yeah. Mm-hmm.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. And did you get a sense -- so you had -- you were a 4-F, um -- did you get a sense of -- of other people -- why they were at the Navy Yards in, in terms of --

JAMES SMITH:No. I think --

SADY SULLIVAN:-- the draft.

JAMES SMITH:-- I think it because, um, uh, probably do -- for -- at that time of -- of the -- of the war, I think working at the Navy Yard was probably considered an essential war effort job --

SADY SULLIVAN:Yeah.

JAMES SMITH:-- so you were not drafted, or -- or -- you could volunteer if you wanted to, but you weren't subject to the draft.

SADY SULLIVAN:Oh, okay. Okay.

JAMES SMITH:Mm hmm.

SADY SULLIVAN:So people who were working there previously wouldn't have been subject to the draft?

JAMES SMITH:Right.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Mm-hmm.

SADY SULLIVAN:Um, and do you remember what -- what building, or area that you worked in?

JAMES SMITH:No.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. And, uh, we were sort of looking at the map. Do you remember -- does one of the gates seem familiar in terms of -- there's Cumberland, or Sand Street--

JAMES SMITH:You know, to be very honest, we're going back about seventy years, sixty-five years.

SADY SULLIVAN:Yeah. [laughter]

JAMES SMITH:No way. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN:[laughter]

JAMES SMITH:If I would have known this was going to happen, I would make some notes way back then.

SADY SULLIVAN:[laughter] Yes. Was there a shop number, or a union?

JAMES SMITH:There was no union.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:No.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, so tell me what -- what you remember of the -- of the work that you were doing.

JAMES SMITH:Like I said, we did a lot of installations, uh, mostly, uh, heavy machinery. They might be, uh, generators, or even engines, or parts of engines, and we'd make their, uh -- sometimes, uh, we would do overhauls where they would 12:00actually remove the machinery from the ship, replace it with something new, and meanwhile they would build -- rebuild the old one. And that would go onto another ship that it needed to be done.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So most of the work that you were doing was in the dry docks?

JAMES SMITH:Mm, yes.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Yeah. Mm-hmm.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. So do you remember these -- I'll move the mic actually, so --

JAMES SMITH:You know, I would only be guessing --

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:I would only be guessing. I remember walking past a dry dock, and the keel was being laid for the aircraft carrier Roosevelt.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mmm. Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:And I remember walking past that dock, and looking at that, and watching it grow little by little while they were working there. But I don't know what dock, dry dock, that was built --

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:-- in. But it was in the area where I worked. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Tell me more about that. Just describe what it looked like, to, to see the aircraft carrier being built.

JAMES SMITH:Well, it was something that you thought about the war effort, ahem, and what it's going to be when this boat is done probably in three years. You know, they'd take -- it probably took that long, if not longer to build it, but it was, uh, kind of exciting to go to work every day, and turn around, and look at the progress they've made, you know -- and week by week, you can see it's -- the hull is starting to take shape.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:Was there -- did you get a sense for, er -- and did you feel this: was there a sense of patriotism in the work that you were doing?

JAMES SMITH:Oh, definitely.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Definitely.

SADY SULLIVAN:Can you describe that environment? The...?

JAMES SMITH:Well, the thing was I think -- well, with any big project like the Navy Yard, uh, there are people extremely dedicated, and there are other people that are fairly dedicated.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:You know. But everything we did was doing it for the good of the 14:00country. We -- we realized the problems we had, and my being a 4-F made me be a little bit more conscious of trying to help --

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:-- and do other things.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Um, and, so going back to the work, it's not something that I know very much about, so I -- it's hard for me to ask questions about the machinery, but I would love to hear about some of the things that you were doing.

JAMES SMITH:Well, for instance, if, uh, ahem, if we had to pull a massive generator out of a hull in there, uh, you naturally have very experienced people doing the work. Like I said, I was only sixteen, seventeen years old, so I was a gofer. Okay? "Hey Jim, I need, you know, a spanner wrench, or something." "Well, give me a tool check and I'll run down to the tool shed, and I'll pick it up for you, and I'll come back," and hand him the tool, and that's the end of [inaudible], or -- I'd, uh, going for coffee in the morning. You know? 15:00[laughter] Making the coffee. I was a gofer.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:And, see -- and once a while, I was allowed to actually participate in the actual work day as far as, uh, doing mechanical stuff. I was actually learning. I was an apprentice, you know, but they also used me for everything else. You know. You know that story about going out and finding a gallon of striped paint. [laughter] You know.

SADY SULLIVAN:What's that? What do you mean?

JAMES SMITH:Uh, if I asked you, uh -- go down, uh -- I need some paint. Get m-- get me a str -- a can of striped paint.

SADY SULLIVAN:[laughter]

JAMES SMITH:You know. And there is no such thing as striped paint, but being a kid, you know, without knowing it -- but I never got caught on it, but I've heard of things like that happen. You go around to the tool shed -- "Oh, I need a can of striped paint." "Well, what color do you want?" "Oh, blue and red." "Oh, you can't go here. You have to go down to the next building, and say..." -- see, and they'd send you for a good -- for you'd be gone for three hours looking for striped paint.

SADY SULLIVAN:[laughter]

JAMES SMITH:You went from point A to point B to point C. You know.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Uh --

SADY SULLIVAN:Was there other people your age who were in different departments maybe, or...?

JAMES SMITH:I'm sure there probably was, but, uh, I don't remember them.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Um, and who was -- who was the supervisor? Who were you apprenticing with?

JAMES SMITH:You want a name?

SADY SULLIVAN:Oh, no. I mean, if you --

JAMES SMITH:[laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN:-- if you could remember a name, but I don't expect that, but --

JAMES SMITH:No.

SADY SULLIVAN:-- can you describe him?

JAMES SMITH:Uh, well, as far as I could remember, the guy was fairly middle-aged, and, uh, very intelligent, you know -- as far as his work, he was well qualified. But we never had a problem. We never did anything that was drastic as far as making a big mistake, you know, and causing time delays, which is very important, you know, all these ships are in on scheduling. And you can't really afford to screw up on a time. So we had a pretty good gang. Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:I do remember that, um, when you were working, or if you were, for 17:00instance, uh, you were waiting for a certain part to come in, and you were stuck at that point, you couldn't go any further. Everybody's looking out for Navy officers, that was in the Navy, and probably assigned to this particular ship, and then you had to make believe you were working, so the Navy didn't say, "Hey. We're paying you's guys for screwin' up?" You know? "Screwing off." So whenever you saw somebody in the Navy come down, you did something to look busy.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:Was there other -- what was interaction between the Navy, and the civilian people?

JAMES SMITH:I never had any direct, um, contact with the people.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:No.

SADY SULLIVAN:You'd just see --

JAMES SMITH:But I did --

SADY SULLIVAN:-- them around.

JAMES SMITH:-- But I -- Yeah. But I -- I think it was a -- a more or less a -- a cooperation deal, because the Navy realized there was people that were doing the best we can for the war effort. Get the ships out, bring them in, get 'em outta here. So, um, I guess they were pretty tolerant of the fact that, uh, there were 18:00delays beyond our help. You know.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:And this went on all over the country, not only in Brooklyn Navy Yard.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:Was there a sense, being at the -- at the Yards -- I mean, definitely you were doing work that was important for the war effort. Was there a sense of security in the Yards?

JAMES SMITH:Hmm. Well, I think the security came as you walked in the gate. I mean, everybody had identification badges that they had to wear outside. And, uh, they had, if I -- I do remember now that they had Marine guards posted, uh, on every ship up the gangway.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mmm.

JAMES SMITH:So when you came on, you know, you had your lunch box, and your thermos, and when you came off, that's all you better have in your hand. [laughter] You know?

SADY SULLIVAN:Right.

JAMES SMITH:Uh, I do remember one time unfortunately [laughter] I was too dumb 19:00to realize. Well, I was fortunate. Uh, they were loading this cargo ship, and they had a cargo net, and a load of, uh, high top boots on there. Well, before that net hit the deck [laughter]the boots were gone.

SADY SULLIVAN:All of them?

JAMES SMITH:Just about all of them. Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:Wow.

JAMES SMITH:And then the first thing they'd do, they'd go down and -- and they'd get some oil or grease, and put it all over their shoes so they looked like they were new shoes, and they'd throw their -- hide their old ones away. But that's, you know -- I don't know what the motive was, but, uh, uh, it did stand out in my mind.

SADY SULLIVAN:Yeah. Yeah.

JAMES SMITH:You know.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:Um, was there -- what about getting news of the war, um, of what was going on in -- in Europe, and elsewhere.

JAMES SMITH:Well, at that time, um, uh, it was -- yeah, it was probably before television. Uh, I don't -- I don't know. I don't remember. But, uh, I wasn't 20:00interested in the progress of the -- of the war, per se. I just knew I went to work every day, and did my job, and came home, and played with the neighbors, you know, and, and that was about it. You don't --

SADY SULLIVAN:Hmm.

JAMES SMITH:-- You went to work the next day again.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Yeah. I don't think the progress or lack of progress, uh -- I wasn't really -- at this time, I can think, I wasn't really aware of it.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:You know.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Were, um -- were your friends back home and things like that -- were people interested in the work that you were doing at the Navy Yard?

JAMES SMITH:Uh, no, because most of my friends were already in the service.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mmm.

JAMES SMITH:And, uh, that really bothered me quite a bit.

SADY SULLIVAN:Oh, how did --

JAMES SMITH:That they were there.

SADY SULLIVAN:Tell me more. What do you mean?

JAMES SMITH:Well, in fact, this is an honest to true God story --

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:-- I was very upset that I was 4-F.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Okay? And, uh, my mother said to me, "You know. It's about time I 21:00think we took you to the priest, and have him talk to you about this, because you're very upset." So, okay. So I went to the priest, and told him what happened. He says, "You know", he said, "God works in mysterious ways. This is really true. If you were to go into the service, and God forbid you should have got killed, that's the end of your life."

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:"Maybe he has something in store, and plans for you later on at some time or another that he needs you."

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:And I firmly believed that happened, because in, uh -- probably thirty years ago, ahem, I was, uh -- I joined the Coast Guard auxiliary --

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:-- and I was on patr-- just getting ready to go on patrol with three other fellas, and I get a call on the radio that, uh, there was a boat sinking right off Browns River in Sayville. So my crew and I were just about ready to go. I was -- I was coxswain on the boat, and we found the boat, and we pulled 22:00two people out of the water, and towed the boat to shore. And we're just cleaning up, and I get another mayday call out in Patchogue. There's a boat sinking. We got there, and as soon as we pulled up, every -- there was seven people on board -- they all jumped overboard, and started coming to my boat. So we pull seven people, plus the two we had before -- it was nine people. And then toward the evening, there was another boat tied up at the dock. The guy just pulled in, and tied up, and he says, "My boat's sinking. My boat's sinking. I need some help." So we sent a crew over, and, uh, the guy broke a water hose, and didn't have enough of sense to shut the engine off, and the water kept coming in. So we saved three boats, and nine people that day, and I got a notor-- meritorious award from the Coast Guard. So maybe that was the day. I don't know.

SADY SULLIVAN:Yeah. Yeah. Oh.

JAMES SMITH:Yeah. It might have been. Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:Amazing.

JAMES SMITH:Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:[laughter]

JAMES SMITH:[laughter] Yup. And, and that was, uh, on a, uh -- I'll never forget the day. It was July 28th, which happened to be my, uh -- Elsie and I's anniversary. But every year on July 28th, the -- the Coast Guard made sure I had the patrol that day. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN:[laughter]

JAMES SMITH:Yeah. So I'll say it -- it -- this has nothing to do with the Navy Yard, but it's just the idea of being 4-F, and maybe that was why. You never know.

SADY SULLIVAN:Right.

JAMES SMITH:You just don't know.

SADY SULLIVAN:Right.

JAMES SMITH:Yup.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, oh, so well that -- what did you do that -- that sort of leads to this question. What -- what did you do after -- so in -- you left the Navy Yard because your family was moving out here?

JAMES SMITH:That's correct.

SADY SULLIVAN:Yeah. Um, and so what was your feeling about leaving the Navy Yard?

JAMES SMITH:I didn't want to go.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. You were --

JAMES SMITH:I did -- I did -- I was at home in the Navy Yard. That was my job. It was during the war, and I did not want to go, but I had no choice.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:You know.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:I would have became an orphan on the street corner. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN:[laughter] Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Um, but, uh -- no, I, uh -- I enjoyed the work. It was hard work, and it was a learning experience. Believe me, it was very, you know -- a very informative -- you got to integrate with more people than you would have ordinarily, you know. Different types of people. Good guys, bad guys, in-between guys. You know.

SADY SULLIVAN:Oh, tell me more about the people. I'm curious about the social...

JAMES SMITH:Well, during lunch hour, I mean -- everybody would sit around, you know -- on -- on the dock, or find a place on the -- on the ship someplace, and your gang usually hung out together. So you had your sandwiches, and your coffee, or whatever was in a thermos. And you talked maybe sometimes about a jo-- about the job. And there -- there was, "What did you do last night?" "What are you going to do tonight?" You know. "How the kids are doing?" "How's your wife doing?" and all that stuff. And it was a good social mixture.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Yup.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. What did people -- so people brought their lunches. Um, was there any kind of, um -- if you didn't bring a lunch, was there like a lunch truck, or something like that?

JAMES SMITH:Uh, I don't remember.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:I really don't. There probably was, but I -- I don't remember in particular.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:And what did -- so what did people tend to be eating for lunch?

JAMES SMITH:Bologna sandwiches. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:You know. [chuckles] And -- and most people had, uh, coffee in a thermos. I always had milk.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:And whatever sandwiches my mother made me. I -- I don't remember any particular kind.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:And so the guards checking for alcohol, were people really going to be bringing alcohol in?

JAMES SMITH:I don't know if they would dare to bring it in. I don't know. And if they did, I'm sure they would have been denied access to the Navy Yard. At that particular time, they would have got sent home.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Uh, and I don't know any other reason why they would do this. You 26:00know. I mean, there -- you -- you're dealing with thousands of people. They're going to find a couple of alcoholics within that bunch somewhere. You know.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:So this is a way of protecting that person, and protecting the government property.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:You know.

SADY SULLIVAN:So when you would find -- you say you would find a spot for eating lunch on the boats or something, like where would you -- where would you be on the ships?

JAMES SMITH:Well, probably on the deck. You know. Or maybe -- might go down on dockside to sit along the dock. You know, dangle your feet over the side.

SADY SULLIVAN:Nice.

JAMES SMITH:Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:That's a ni-- that -- it's such a neat area, with such great views.

JAMES SMITH:Yes. It is. Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Um, what about, uh -- I've heard a lot about Sand Street, um, as a place where a lot of the sailors would hang out. Did you ever hang out along Sand Street where there...JAMES SMITH:I was only a kid. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN:[laughter]

JAMES SMITH:I wasn't allowed to do -- you know. I don't know. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN:[laughter] Too young for the bars. That's good.

JAMES SMITH:Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Um, so was there -- was there gossip, um, in the Yard about, you know, different areas, or different things going on, or, social--

JAMES SMITH:I couldn't say anything in particular. I mean, I -- I don't remember anything in particular that would stand out in my mind --

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:-- about that. You know. I'm sure there was, because everybody was interested in the war -- the progress we were making, you know, and so forth.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:What about accidents? Was there accidents?

JAMES SMITH:Oh, I'm sure there was. I don't remember any in particular, but it's the kind of, um, work environment that would be very conductive to accidents.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:You know. Especially when you're moving around heavy, uh, heavy machinery, you know -- you could step in the wrong place, or somebody with a crane swing something the wrong way, and you happen to be there. You know.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:It's, um -- yeah, I would say there was -- there was quite a bit. 28:00You know. They had, um, plenty of first aid stations, I remember, uh, throughout the area.

SADY SULLIVAN:Oh, what were those like?

JAMES SMITH:Well, you know, they had a nurse usually in charge, and, oh, suppose you got hit in the head with something, uh -- you wanted to -- or you got a headache, or you cut your finger, which is not uncommon. So you'd walk down to the first aid. They'd look at it. Clean it. Put a band aid on it. Take down your information. Go back to work.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:You know. So they were very conscious about, you know, your safety, too.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:And those first aid stations, would those be staffed by Navy people?

JAMES SMITH:I don't believe so.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:I don't think so.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's interesting. Um, and -- oh! So what did you do after? So when you moved here with your family, then what did you do for work 29:00when you move -- when you moved out?

JAMES SMITH:I worked at the gas station with my father.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And is that --

JAMES SMITH:Pumping gas.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. And did you do that, um -- what did you...

JAMES SMITH:Well, um, I started to work, uh, for Grumman Aerospace --

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:-- in Bethpage, New York. [29:24]

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:I put thirty-nine years in that company.

SADY SULLIVAN:Wow.

JAMES SMITH:And right now I'm retired over eighteen years.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Yup. I started in 1951, and I retired in 1990.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Yup.

SADY SULLIVAN:And so what did you do at, um, Grumman Aerospace?

JAMES SMITH:Well, it's a lot easier to say what I didn't do, but...

SADY SULLIVAN:[laughter]

JAMES SMITH:[laughter] But basically, um, I did, um, flight testing on the, uh -- the important jobs were -- well, every, everybody's job was important, but, 30:00uh, I worked -- they opened -- the Navy opened at Calverton, which is a jet testing station, and they started flight testing the F-14.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:So, uh, I started working, uh, on first flight of the F-14. And then I gradually moved around, and I wound up down in Patuxent River, Maryland on the, uh, F-14 flight test carrier sortability program, which meant that we -- we were assigned to one F-14, and we did an envelope of different air frame changes, or power changes. Then they flew it. And, uh, they had a, uh, a, a -- yeah. An ejection -- Not an ejection, a -- a catapult built in down there, so we would work up the F-14 to maximum load, then shoot her off the cat. And when 31:00that was approved by the Navy -- I'm cutting this story very short, because it could go on.

SADY SULLIVAN:No. Take your time.

JAMES SMITH:You know?

SADY SULLIVAN:Take your time, because this is -- there's definitely parallels between the work that you did for thirty-nine years, and --

JAMES SMITH:Yeah. Well --

SADY SULLIVAN:-- your work at the Navy Yard.

JAMES SMITH:Yeah. And actually, uh, when I went in 1951, I went into Bethpage to get a job, because I was going to get married, and I didn't have a job.

SADY SULLIVAN:[laughter]

JAMES SMITH:So, um, I was sitting in, uh, in a bar one night, and a friend of mine was there. So I said, "You know, I got to go down to Republic, and get a job. I'm getting married in a couple weeks, I don't have a job." "Don't go to Republic. Go to Grumman. Republic is a union outfit, and you're going to get laid off, and go to -- go to Grumman, and they'll treat you right." "Okay." I walk in the appointment and says, "Well, I'd like a job." "All right. What kind of a job do you want?" "What do you have?" [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN:[laughter]

JAMES SMITH:"Okay. We have two openings. You can either be, uh -- work in the sheet metal department, or be a riveter." So my inner mind says, "Sheet metal. Hmm. A three by four heavy piece of sheet metal", you know. "I don't think so. Rosie the Riveter -- a little tiny gun. I'll take the riveting job."

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:And, uh, I gradually worked my way up. And then when they opened Calverton, we were -- I was out there in '53, I think, and it didn't officially open until 1954. And I worked on a flight line, and we did first flights. And, uh, I moved around a little bit. I was on the crash crew for a while.

SADY SULLIVAN:What does that mean?

JAMES SMITH:The, uh -- Well, the crash crew is, uh, when an aircraft has problems, and they want to land, or they can't land, or they crash, or they're -- usually most of the emergency we had was radio failure.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:So we'd use -- [inaudible] science class. It was like a -- a big 33:00fire department. You know. How would have these great big immense trucks.

SADY SULLIVAN:Oh, so you would actually respond to the --

JAMES SMITH:The emergency.

SADY SULLIVAN:-- the crash.

JAMES SMITH:Yeah. Mm-hmm.

SADY SULLIVAN:Oh, wow.

JAMES SMITH:Yeah. So, uh, this was just before the F-14 really stated to go into heavy production. And, uh, word came out that if you had any production experience on air craft, no matter you were doing, including white collar work, you were going to back into the factory, and start working on the F-14. So I didn't like that.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:So, uh, I asked her -- I knew a lot of people, being there for a quite few years, and, uh, I got a job in the crash crew, uh, 'cause then I came back, I had to go into production, but I went into first flight, which meant that the physical airplane was built, and ready for flying, and we were doing what we -- in flight development, we were doing experimental work. And, uh, I 34:00used to work the flight line. And one day I'm reading a book, uh, an, a manual on certain, um, parts of the airplane, and the plant superintendent come over, and said, "Jim, what are you doing?" And I said, "Well, I got to make an installation on this particular aircraft, and I'm just reviewing how it's done by the book, and what I need." "Okay", he said. "When you're finished doing this", he says, um -- "I want you to get the -- another book out, and read all about slinging, and the hoisting of an -- of an aircraft aboard, uh, the aircraft carrier from the deck." "Okay." So I read all about the slings, and the hoists, and the procedures, and all, and went back to him, he says, "Okay." He says, "Friday night you're leaving to go down to Norfolk, and you're going to be in charge of hoisting the first F-14 from the dock, onto the hanger deck, out to the aircraft carrier deck."

SADY SULLIVAN:Wow!

JAMES SMITH:So [laughter] I'm sitting there, I said, "Okay." So, um, we get on 35:00top of the airplane. We take all the covers off, and start hooking up the sling, and I said to somebody down there -- I mean, eh, there was a crowd around the place, there was, because this is an F-14 going up on -- so I said to someone, which I thought was one of my crew, I says, "Come on up here. I need some more help." So this guy gets up here, and I didn't say nothing to him, because he didn't look familiar to me. Anyway we get it all -- this thing all hooked up, and we get off the aircraft, then the, uh, Navy people take over with the crane, and I start hoisting the F-14 onboard the deck. So meanwhile the crew and I were running down the deck, and we get onto the carrier, and we're making out way up to the deck, and there's the airplane sitting there, so now we got to un-sling it. So I said to one of the fellows, I said, "Jim", I says, "Who is that guy there?" "I don't know. I never saw him." I said to the guy, I says, "Do you work for Grumman?" He says, "No." I said, "You in the Navy?" "No." "Then what are you 36:00doing here?" He said, "Well, my father's a captain, and I'm just coming home from school on my bicycle, and I saw this big crowd, and I come over, and I heard you ask for help, and here I am." [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN:[laughter]

JAMES SMITH:I says, "Do me a favor. Get off this ship as fast as you can." [laughter] We're on this super military aircraft, you know -- highly classified, and there's this kid right up there with me. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN:[laughter]

JAMES SMITH:Oh, god.

SADY SULLIVAN:[laughter]

JAMES SMITH:So, then, um, they were getting ready for a flight testing out of Patuxent Navel Air Station, uh, test, uh, test on it, where they had the catapults, and we had to work it up to the catapult area. So, uh, for, we had a contract with the Navy where they would have, uh, a Grumman Gulfstream waiting for us in Bethpage at six o'clock on a Monday morning, and they -- there was a 37:00crew of ten of us. We were on our first, one, only aircraft down there. They flew us down on a Monday -- Monday morning, uh -- during -- we went to work during our lunch hour -- we went to the town. We had, uh, hotel reservations, and we stayed there until Thursday night. Friday morning we came to work, and Friday afternoon at three o'clock, the Gulf -- the Gulfstream was out -- outside the hanger ready to take us back to Bethpage again. We did this for a year, and then they said, you know, there, we're not getting the contract anymore, and we're going to be getting more airplanes, so you better make plans, uh, to move your family down here. Because you want to be here.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mmm.

JAMES SMITH:So I came home one Than-- Thanksgiving, and they said to Elsie -- and we were just newly married, not that long, okay? And she has three children. I have four. But we don't have any.

SADY SULLIVAN:Ohh, OK.

JAMES SMITH:[laughter] So anyway, I say, "Here's the deal. I -- You know, I got to be down there, and you have to come." Well, she was all for it, but the kids were yelling, and screaming, you know. They were thirteen to fourteen years old. And so, well, I said, "You got 'til when I come back on Christmas time. If you don't come down Christmas time and stay here, I don't know when I'm going to come home." So we got it agreed. I mean, well, I had found a house to move in. Grumman paid all the bills. And, uh, we were there for about four years, and then in the meantime, I had got transferred to, uh, aircraft carrier as a flight safety officer. So I was there on and off aircraft carriers wherever the F-14 was.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:And when I got off my last tour, uh, I found out that, uh, Grumman didn't have the maintenance contract anymore. They lost the maintenance contract. So, um, either I had to go back to New York, or go to work for this 39:00other company, and I didn't want to go to work for the other company, and I knew sooner or later I would have to go back to New York. So back we came.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:And I went to, uh, a -- a program for the F-14. It was called, uh, CLAMP, for short. It was a Closed Loop Aeronautical Management Program.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:It was a desk job, where the -- the -- the Navy at the fleet would send in a black box, and we'd, uh, check it in, you know -- log, well, we would log it into the system, and then we would send it to the shop, and they would tear it down, and repair it. In the meantime, they would take one off the shelf, and send it out, and then they'd fix this one, and put it on the shelf 'til they needed it again. Well, I worked my way up to a, uh, a manager, uh -- thirty-two people working for me, and then the time came when, you know -- I says, "This is 40:00not..." [laughter] "This is not for me anymore."

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:And I was in -- in my six-- sixty-three I think it was, and, ahem,I was getting a, not a hard time from management, but I was a kind of a guy, hey, if you work for me, then you started at 7:30. I expect you to be at your car -- at your desk at 7:30.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Well, twenty to eight, you know -- 7:35, they'd come strolling into the coffee pot. The woman with the filing the nails, on the telephone. And when it got time for a rev, review, I would give them a fair review. And then I got called up on the carpet. How come these people are getting fair reviews instead of excellent. I was trying to explain it to them. "Well, we think it's your fault, because you're not training them right." I said, "Oh, it's my fault now. Okay!" Go back to my desk, and now I'm steaming. Okay.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:So I picked up the telephone. I called my manager into anoth -- 41:00another building. I says, "I'm taking the rest of the day off. I'll be in tomorrow." I went down, got in the car, drove to Huntington to Social Security Office. I said, "How much you going to pay me for social security? Okay!" Went to the Grumman retirement board. "How much are you going to pay me? Okay." Hmm. This is doable. It's doable, but I have to cut down a little bit. Well, I don't have to buy suits, and ties, and shirts, and shoes. I don't have to use the car as much. I'm not going to be able to buy bonds like I'm buying now, and, uh, I'm not going to be able to put money away, but it's doable. "That's it guys. Goodbye." [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN:Nice. [laughter]

JAMES SMITH:And up 'til the day I retired, my boss says, "You know. You don't have to go. You could still stay here. You know. You have your old job back. You don't have to --" "Nope. Sorry. That's it."

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:That's it. And that was eighteen years ago, and I'm still here.

SADY SULLIVAN:Nice. Oh --

JAMES SMITH:Yup.

SADY SULLIVAN:-- that's good. That's good.

JAMES SMITH:So.

SADY SULLIVAN:So when you were working -- so it sounds like you had a lot of interaction with the Navy throughout your career, and I wonder --

JAMES SMITH:Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:-- did you talk ever about the -- your work in the Brooklyn Navy Yard?

JAMES SMITH:Uh, I don't believe so.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:I don't think so.

SADY SULLIVAN:Would you hear stuff about the Navy Yard?

JAMES SMITH:Well, we always knew that -- that it existed, and then there's -- there was a time when I believe they actually closed down.

SADY SULLIVAN:Yeah. It was decommissioned. Yeah. In '60.

JAMES SMITH:Yeah. And I used to brag about, "Oh, I worked there. You know? Yeah. I was only a kid. I was sixteen, seventeen years old." But yeah. Now it's a shame. They lose that. Boy, that's bad news.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:So I was aware of the fact that it did close, and, uh --

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:-- not only an economic crisis, you know -- all these people thrown out of work.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:It was terrible.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:Yeah. A large number of people unemployed.

JAMES SMITH:Yup.

SADY SULLIVAN:Um, so going back to the Yard, um, I wonder if you could describe the -- the physical experience. So things that -- sights that stand out in your 43:00memory, smells, sounds--

JAMES SMITH:Well, the -- the -- the -- the most important thing that impressed me was the size of these ships. You know, I'm a Brooklyn kid at the time, you know. We used to go down to Canarsie ready to go swimming, you know, in the dirty water. But, uh, seeing ships that close, and knowing you're working on them was simply amazing. I was never, uh -- I was always in awe of the ships, you know, and thinking to myself, "Boy. It's going to leave here, and it's going to go to Europe." You know. "And I'm here on a deck, and I couldn't get in the Navy, or I couldn't get in the Army, but I'm here, and I'm going to watch the ships go out." And especially when, you know -- when they launched the ships, I was -- always made sure I was -- find the time somewhere that there's a -- watch these ships get launched.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Yup.

SADY SULLIVAN:Can you describe what it looks like to me, because I don't have -- 44:00I don't have an -- an under-- I've only seen photographs, so I actually don't have an understanding of how big those ships are when you're standing there.

JAMES SMITH:Whew, they're, I'll tell you -- they're, they're immense. Okay, from -- the cargo ships were probably the, one of the smaller ships, but they had, uh -- I don't remember if they had a battle ship in there or not. I don't really remember. But I do remember an aircraft carrier, you know, and these things -- It's like, um, uh, Gulliver's Travels, you know. For instance, uh, the little tiny kids, and the great big giant, and you're looking at that, and you're walking up the gangway, "Man, I'm walking on a Navy ship, you know? This is great!"

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:And then you, invariably, the first week or so, you always got lost. You know. You could, heh, not find your --

SADY SULLIVAN:On the ship?

JAMES SMITH:-- on the ship. Yeah. You would always get lost.

SADY SULLIVAN:Oh wow.

JAMES SMITH:Because you would -- somebody would take you to your work station, 45:00and then go about your business, and you're just following this person. I have no idea where you went, you know. Then how do I get off. How do I get out of the ship? And this, until you got used to working in that area, you know. Then you knew the shortcuts.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:But --

SADY SULLIVAN:Would there be maps and things, or...?

JAMES SMITH:No. No.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Nope. Just memory.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:That's all.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:You go in the gate, you walk down two -- two docks, and you make a left-hand turn. You know? "Oh, there's my ship. Okay."

SADY SULLIVAN:[laughter]

JAMES SMITH:"Now let's see, which way do I turn now?"

SADY SULLIVAN:Yeah.

JAMES SMITH:You know?

SADY SULLIVAN:Was there ever -- was -- did you ever find yourself in an area that you weren't supposed to be?

JAMES SMITH:Not in the Navy Yard, but I did that in Grumman, though.

SADY SULLIVAN:Oh. [laughter]

JAMES SMITH:On an aircraft carrier. Yeah. And these things are so big, they are -- like on the Enterprise, they had over three thousand men on a ship. You know?

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:And they -- they -- they give you, uh -- I was considered, as a 46:00flight safety officer, I had a, uh, like a civilian rank of Lieutenant Commander, so we had our three men to a room. We weren't slung up in bunks. And they -- they label everything, uh, uh -- each bulkhead they close -- stations they've measured from a certain point. Like, uh, bulkhead 239 would be like 239 inches from a certain point. Then they would have levels of decks, and I'm walking, all of a sudden I said, "I know I'm not supposed to be here. I know it." And I see two Marine guards standing outside this door, you know -- with their rifles at -- at rest. And not know -- I opened the door, and there was this big huge table with all the Navy brass, and I says, "This is not where I belong."

SADY SULLIVAN:[laughter]

JAMES SMITH:[laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN:They had a meeting going on. I show up and everybody turned their head, and I said, "Uh oh!"

JAMES SMITH:[laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN:[laughter] So, uh --

JAMES SMITH:Mm-hmm

SADY SULLIVAN:-- yeah. But I found, uh, when I worked through Grumman, uh, we were very close to the Navy people.

JAMES SMITH:Mm-hmm.

SADY SULLIVAN:They were real good.

JAMES SMITH:Mm-hmm.

SADY SULLIVAN:Real good.

JAMES SMITH:Mm-hmm.

SADY SULLIVAN:Yup.

JAMES SMITH:Um, what about at the Yards, did you -- You said that they would come by and stuff. Did you see the officers?

SADY SULLIVAN:Yeah. Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Mm-hmm.

SADY SULLIVAN:Yeah.

JAMES SMITH:Mm-hmm.

SADY SULLIVAN:Yeah.

JAMES SMITH:And what about the sailors who were on the ships that you were working on? What would -- what would they be doing?

SADY SULLIVAN:I don't -- I think they were probably assigned someplace else, because I don't remember any particular fellas in their fatigues. You know, their blue coveralls, and their blue shirts. Mm, I don't remember seeing them too much.

JAMES SMITH:Mm-hmm.

SADY SULLIVAN:Yeah. The -- the officers I think were still assigned to that ship.

JAMES SMITH:Mm-hmm.

SADY SULLIVAN:During war time, maybe they took the crew and sent them someplace else on another boat. I don't know.

JAMES SMITH:Mm-hmm.

SADY SULLIVAN:You know.

JAMES SMITH:Mm-hmm.

SADY SULLIVAN:Yup.

JAMES SMITH:Mm-hmm.

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON:Could I get you something to drink, hon? Do you want coffee, tea, soda, water?

SADY SULLIVAN:Um, some water would be great. Yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON:Okay.

SADY SULLIVAN:Thank you.

SADY SULLIVAN:Um, so in terms of the other, um, people that were -- that were walking around the yard, did everybody -- what was the sense of, like when you would pass people that you didn't know, was there--

JAMES SMITH:Oh, there was always an -- an eye recognition, or a how, how you doin', you know?

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Yeah. You would never -- I shouldn't say never. Well, you know, they're -- everybody's human. Some people are friendly. Some people are deep in thought when they're walking around, you know? Heh, they could be walking off the edge of a plank and not realize it, you know?

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:So, um...

UNIDENTIFED PERSON:Can I fix you a sandwich yet honey?

JAMES SMITH:Can you wait 'till we get done?

SADY SULLIVAN:Oh, I'm fine. Thank you.

UNIDENTIFED PERSON:Are you sure?

SADY SULLIVAN:Yeah. Yeah.

UNIDENTIFED PERSON:Would you like a piece of --

JAMES SMITH:Els', let's finish up here --

UNIDENTIFED PERSON:-- coffee cake?

JAMES SMITH:-- and then --

UNIDENTIFED PERSON:Oh, all right. OK.

JAMES SMITH:-- and then I'm sure --

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:-- we'll want something.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Um, can you describe some of the -- the boat launches that you saw?

JAMES SMITH:Well, it was generally like, uh, the word would get out that, hey, 49:00tomorrow they're going to launch, uh, the ship number, whatever it was -- 543, or something like that, and everybody would sort of edge away, uh, down -- they'd work their way down there, and it was always crowded, you know -- and they'd have the platform up there like you'd see, uh, in the movies or newspaper --

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:-- and it was, uh, very exciting. Everybody yelling, and screaming, and clapping. Then you snuck your way back to your, heh, to your job. Uh --

SADY SULLIVAN:So you weren't there -- it wasn't -- you weren't given, like, official time off to go to the launch, or --

JAMES SMITH:No.

SADY SULLIVAN:-- anything?

JAMES SMITH:No. A couple of guys, uh, uh, they would sneak out, and nobody really yelled at them, or, you know, disciplined them. Of course it was something to really see, and we were part of the, the program.

SADY SULLIVAN:Right. Right.

JAMES SMITH:Yup.

SADY SULLIVAN:And would there be people from outside of the Yards there at the launch?

JAMES SMITH:The usual politicians. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN:Mmm.

JAMES SMITH:You know?

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Usual politicians. And the Mayor sometimes would be there. I think 50:00at that time it might have been LaGuardia. Fiorello LaGuardia.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:I think he was the Mayor at that time.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:But it was always a joyous occasion.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:You know.

SADY SULLIVAN:Um, and what did they -- so they would be going from dry into the water, or they would be...?

JAMES SMITH:No, uh, what they would do, um, they would us -- in -- on the dry docks, they would usually flood them --

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:-- and get the hull up, and then, uh, they'd, uh -- I'm trying to remember exactly which one it was, but when they flooded the dry docks, and then they just opened the gates, and the ship went out. There was other ones were, uh, built on, uh -- on the grounds itself.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:And, uh, they would have chalking, I guess, or supports underneath the hull --

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:-- and that's when they knocked out the supports, and it would slide 51:00down these long planks --

SADY SULLIVAN:Mmm!

JAMES SMITH:-- into the water.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mmm! How did they knock out the supports?

JAMES SMITH:They had guys with sledge hammers --

SADY SULLIVAN:Oh!

JAMES SMITH:-- down there. Yeah. Knocking them out. Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:Wow! Um, and I heard a funny story, and I'm not sure if it's true, that they used bananas to make the ramps --

JAMES SMITH:It could be.

SADY SULLIVAN:-- slippery.

JAMES SMITH:They could put oil down there, you know -- yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. So you weren't -- you're not sure what -- what they used?

JAMES SMITH:No.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Not really sure.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. What's the speed at which a big ship goes down like that?

JAMES SMITH:Fast. But I really didn't -- yeah. I really don't know in miles per hour, but I know it was fast.

SADY SULLIVAN:And so it looks -- it's something --

JAMES SMITH:Yeah. Real fast.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:And, uh, as soon as it -- like it would almost go to an, uh, like a forty-five degree angle when it hit the water, and then it would roll, and it'd come back up, and everybody would start clapping, and the, uh,the ship itself 52:00usually was flying flags -- signal -- either signal flags, or whatever they were.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Yeah. That was always good.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Yup.

SADY SULLIVAN:Was it scary at all, because I imagine, like, knocking the sa -- just anyway -- moving something so big.

JAMES SMITH:No. It wasn't scary, because you always, even today, I mean, I feel that people have experience of certain jobs, and they're professionals.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:So, I leave it to change that they are professionals. Nothing's going to happen.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Ahem, and of course launching the hull doesn't mean the boat is finished. It just means that it's able to float on its own.

SADY SULLIVAN:Oh!

JAMES SMITH:And now, you know, you'd have other crews come in, and start building the inside of the vessel, or putting the, heh, the rugs on the floor, you know, and stuff like that.

SADY SULLIVAN:I see, so it wasn't going off to sea right away.

JAMES SMITH:No. It would be good for a couple more months to get furnished, you know.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Yup.

SADY SULLIVAN:And did you ever work on the ships then, or your work was done mostly, um, it would be --

JAMES SMITH:In -- in the Yard itself. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:How did materials get around the Yard?

JAMES SMITH:Uh, they had tractors.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:-- with, uh, trailers. They had fork lift trucks, you know, would move the stuff around.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Uh, I remember a couple of times when we needed something, all of a sudden some guy would come in, "Hey, I got your stuff on the dock", you know, and they'd call a crane over, and they would lift it from the dock, onto the -- and they would somehow or other position it --

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm. Is that the hammer head crane that they would use?

JAMES SMITH:Yup.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Mm-hmm.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:Um, so what do you -- what would you consider your worst experience at the Navy Yard?

JAMES SMITH:My worst?

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Having to leave. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN:Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. It sounds like your time there was cut short.

JAMES SMITH:Yeah. Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:Yeah.

JAMES SMITH:No. I never had a bad experience.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Uh, you know if you did your job, and you were halfway smart dealing with people, it was great.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:You know? It's when, like in -- in -- in life, you know, uh, life treats you the way you treat life. If you're going to be a mean, nasty person, you ain't -- not going to have any friends, okay.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:If you're sociable, you'll make friends, and they'll take care of you.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:And it seems that everybody that I met, I never had a problem with. You know. I was never one to, um, to say no.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:You needed something? What's the big deal? Do it.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:You know. And, uh that always makes life easier. And so -- in fact, there were times I remember I would be looking forward to going to work.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm!

JAMES SMITH:Uh, I wanted to go to into work. Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:What is it that you liked about it?

JAMES SMITH:Just the general atmosphere, okay? It was knowing I was doing something worthwhile.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:You know. Not later on in life when I was pumping gasoline out here in, uh, in the hicks.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:It's -- you know. So it was, uh -- and you could see the results of your work.

SADY SULLIVAN:Right.

JAMES SMITH:You know. You'd make your installations, and, uh, you'd move on to something else. Maybe another boat, or maybe a section of the -- of the boat you were working on, you know, doing something else. Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Did boats that you had work on, um, would they ever leave, and then come back? Would you see the same ships sometimes?

JAMES SMITH:No. I don't think I was there long enough to do that --

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:-- to see that, okay.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Once they left, uh, uh, they probably went to a -- a replenishment, uh, place, where they would load up with whatever they needed --

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:-- and off they would go.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Did ships ever come in that had been, um, damaged by --

JAMES SMITH:Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:-- the war?

JAMES SMITH:Yeah. Mm-hmm.

SADY SULLIVAN:Oh. Can you tell me about that?

JAMES SMITH:Not very much.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:No. But I remember everybody gawking, or looking, and ooo-ing, and ah-ing, and, "Oh my God, look at that," you know.

SADY SULLIVAN:What were they seeing?

JAMES SMITH:Uh, battle damage.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:You know, holes, ripped up plates -- whatever.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:From what kind of battle would you say?

JAMES SMITH:Uh, I really couldn't say. It could have been from aircraft. It could have been from mines.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. And what was the sensation of, in terms of knowing that -- in terms seeing that kind of an effect?

JAMES SMITH:Well, the first thing you'd always wonder is how many people were killed, and wounded. You know? And you'd -- you'd think about that a little while. And then, uh, you put it out of your mind.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:Um, what was your best experience at the Yards?

JAMES SMITH:Hm. Actually, you know, it blended day, into day, and into day, and it became, uh, very routine more or less --

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:-- and I never had no outstanding experience that I can remember.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:You know, even though it was sort of -- it sounds like it was monotonous, but it really wasn't. I mean, you did things every other day, and the worst thing to do would be monotonous on a job, where you're waiting for a part, and you had to hide, and you had to make plea with doing that. That I didn't like, you know.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:But that was part of the job.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Um, so you would hide from when the Navy Officers came?

JAMES SMITH:You always make believe you were busy. You know.

SADY SULLIVAN:Right.

JAMES SMITH:Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:Right. What kind of stuff would you do?

JAMES SMITH:Well, you would probably be -- you would probably be standing or sitting where you -- where you were waiting for your part to come in, and you were right there to grab the part and put it in. But there's always tools 58:00around, so you'd grab a wrench or something, stick your head under it, and turn a couple of bolts, or make believe, or whatever.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:You know.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Yeah. "Is he gone yet?" [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN:[laughter]

JAMES SMITH:Uh --

SADY SULLIVAN:And what about hiding? You said you would hide. Was there spots that were, like --

JAMES SMITH:No. What I mean by hiding was, eh, maybe if -- if you had the chance, and you saw somebody coming, and you know -- Navy people, you would move behind something where they couldn't see you. You know. It was every -- you know, they were saying, "Hey. This is my boat. I don't want people standing around doing nothing."

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:You know.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:I want my boat finished, and out of the yard, and back into battle again --

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:-- so you tried not to aggravate these people, even though it was beyond your, uh, capability. You couldn't do anything because the part wasn't here. That's not your fault.

SADY SULLIVAN:Right.

JAMES SMITH:So you had to -- it was part of the job to live with it.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:You know? And I'm sure some of the Navy officers realized that, and 59:00others wanted to be hard ass about it.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, is there a person that you worked with that you remember particularly?

JAMES SMITH:No.

SADY SULLIVAN:No. Um, and what are some of your most vivid memories in terms of the visuals or anything?

JAMES SMITH:Hmm, well, it started actually when you got to the gate, you know --

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:-- and you went through the turnstiles,then you'd be walking, but you'd be looking around, "Wow. Look at this. Look at that boat. Look at..." You know, and you would just be aware of your surroundings.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:And when you got to your boat, you know, you passed the Marine Guard on -- on duty, on the deck, and you'd go to work. And the first thing, somebody would say, "I need this." "I need that." "Oh, nine o'clock, time for coffee." You know. And --

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:-- stuff like that. And that was good. That was all right.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:You know. Yup.

SADY SULLIVAN:Did you have time during the day to wander in the yards, and, 60:00like, explore?

JAMES SMITH:Well, yeah, because, you know, uh, being, like, the outside machinist, being an apprentice, if I went to the tool -- tool crib to get a certain tool, if I wanted to, I didn't have to walk directly to it, I could walk down to 45, and then come back again, you know?

SADY SULLIVAN:Right.

JAMES SMITH:Or wander around. "Where were you?" "Well, the line was long. I had to wait in line to get the tools," you know. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, tell me about -- describe the tool crib to me, because I -- I can't picture what that was like, that was where everybody was going --

JAMES SMITH:Uh, well, they had --

SADY SULLIVAN:-- to get stuff?

JAMES SMITH:-- they had probably hundreds of tool cribs, and they would specialize in -- in tools. You would say, for instance, a very large room with a cage, and shelves, and so forth, and, uh, they'd have equipment, uh, that wouldn't normally be, uh, accessible to you on your job. Okay? In other words, 61:00if you had a tool box, chances are you needed a special wrench to do something, and you didn't own that wrench, so you went to the po -- tool shop, and you borrowed it, and you had a -- a tool check, like a -- a brass ring, or something. You know?

SADY SULLIVAN:Oh!

JAMES SMITH:And you handed that in. And in order to get that back again, you had to return the tool.

SADY SULLIVAN:Oh.

JAMES SMITH:So if you had five of these magic things, uh, when you left, or whatever happened, you better have five when you returned.

SADY SULLIVAN:And would that be something that you did on a daily basis --

JAMES SMITH:Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:-- return the tools, or would --

JAMES SMITH:Yeah.

JAMES SMITH:-- could you keep it for...?

SADY SULLIVAN:Ah, you could -- no. You -- you returned it, and of course, you know, there was no place that you could keep it.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm.

JAMES SMITH:You know. If I remember right, they were working probably twenty-four hours a day, you know, so you didn't leave anything around, because it wouldn't be there tomorrow when you come back.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:You know. Mm-hmm.

SADY SULLIVAN:And so what -- describe these things again -- the...?

JAMES SMITH:Oh, they -- let's see, what'd they look like? You know, every tool check is -- different companies had different tool checks, but they would be like, um, uh, the size of a half a dollar, and it might have a hole in it, with a number on it --

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:-- stamped in.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:And, uh, that's what it was.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. And so who was monitoring the tool crib? Was that a Navy person?

JAMES SMITH:No. That was, uh -- a civilian employee. Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Yeah. Yeah. They'd stand there all day handing out tools. When you brought it back, they'd give you your, your check back again.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:This would go on as eight hour, ten hour shift.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:That's what you would do.

SADY SULLIVAN:Was the -- was the welding equipment kept in that kind of a thing?

JAMES SMITH:Uh, I can't say, because I -- all I remember is, uh, learning how to weld at that time, but everything I needed was there. Now whether somebody else gathered, or what happened, all I remember was they were teaching me how to weld.

SADY SULLIVAN:Oh! So you got to learn how to weld when you were.. ?

JAMES SMITH:Yeah. Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:Oh, neat!

JAMES SMITH:Because I was an apprentice. Not only just a gofer. I mean, I had to be there looking over the guy's shoulder --

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:-- and he would teach me about different things.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:And, eh, again, various personalities. Some guys you worked with, you became partners, and you followed them around like a little puppy dog asking questions, and he'd let you do things.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Other guys, "Uh! I don't want to... Don't bother me!" You know?

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:So aside from that, yup.

SADY SULLIVAN:Was there -- was it, um, pretty consistent, the people that you worked with, or was there any kind of turnover?

JAMES SMITH:Oh, there's my lawn guy.

SADY SULLIVAN:[laughter]

JAMES SMITH:They do my lawns for me

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Uh, eh, uh -- was there any turn-- no. I don't remember. Uh, sometimes you got assigned to different, gangs, they call it, you know -- different people, you know, groups.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Yeah. Or maybe you were assigned to these five men, and the other 64:00five men, and maybe somebody was absent that day, or sick, and they'd borrow you to go over there with them.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. What was your work, um -- what was your work day -- just the timing of it? Do you remember the hours?

JAMES SMITH:No.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Do you remember how much you were paid?

JAMES SMITH:No.

SADY SULLIVAN:No. Do you know -- was it in -- Do you have a sense of -- of what people were paid in the Yards, um, compared to other jobs? I mean, was it like a good --

JAMES SMITH:Ahem

SADY SULLIVAN:-- were people making good money?

JAMES SMITH:No. I -- I really don't remember. All I know is I got paid, and, uh, I was happy I got that, and --

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:-- you know. There was never anything like, um, competition as far as pay. Maybe other people had it, you know -- "Oh, he's making, uh, eight dollars an hour, and I'm only making $7.50", you know.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:But no --

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:-- I never had anything like that.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. Um, and so what about the -- the going home commute, was that --- how was that?

JAMES SMITH:Well, it was always crowded, because almost everybody left at the same time --

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:So going out the gate, standing in line, and then everybody's cutting off toward the train station or whatever, you know.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:And it was always crowded. In the mornings, people sort of like staggered in at different times, you know. Some guys would be a half hour early. Some guys ten minutes early.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:So it was never much of a line getting into work.

SADY SULLIVAN:Oh, but there was a line. That must have been kind of frustrating when you're ready to go home, and you have to stand in a line.

JAMES SMITH:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. So how many -- how long would those lines be?

JAMES SMITH:Oh, we'd move right, uh, actually going home, it would move right, uh, right along.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:If you -- you would be prepared. You knew you had to open your lunch box, so you had your lunch box open. (

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Most of the time there wasn't in it, of course, you got rid of your -- if you didn't eat something, you threw it to the seagulls around there, you know, or, uh --

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:-- got rid of the paper in a trash barrel, or whatever. You had an -- an empty box, and that was it. So you had it open as you walked up the line --

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:-- and it was just going right through. It was not a problem.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:In the morning it was a little bit slower, because you had more to do.

SADY SULLIVAN:Right. Right.

JAMES SMITH:Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:Did you ever see anybody get stopped on their way in or out, because they were...?

JAMES SMITH:Nothing that I could recall. There's nothing that outstands me.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:You know.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Um.

SADY SULLIVAN:Did you keep in touch with any of the people that you worked with?

JAMES SMITH:No.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Nope.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:No. I couldn't tell you a name, or remember a face at all.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:All I know is I was very disappointed when I had to go to my boss, and tell him I had to leave, you know.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Ah, anyway. I, oh, I remember one thing. Everybody wanted to take me home so I wouldn't have to leave.

SADY SULLIVAN:Oh! [laughter]

JAMES SMITH:Yeah. "Oh, you could stay with me. Tell your mother and father we'll take care of you."

SADY SULLIVAN:[laughter]

JAMES SMITH:You now? [laughter] Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:I'm sure your parents weren't -- weren't ready to do that. [laughter]

JAMES SMITH:No. No. No.

SADY SULLIVAN:Yeah. Um, let's see, I think I've -- Well, actually, I would just 67:00like to ask as -- as a final question, just if you could describe again, um, what it was like to watch the aircraft carrier being built.

JAMES SMITH:Ahem, well, of course, it took, uh, quite a while before the hull was finally -- I just remember when they laid the keel, which was the very beginning --

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:-- you know, the main keel of the boat.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:And then, uh, gradually see the ribs go up before they actually covered the hull --

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:-- you know, in, uh, in metal --

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:-- or it was.

SADY SULLIVAN:So that would be in -- in dry dock, the...

JAMES SMITH:Yeah. In dry dock. Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Mm-hmm.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:Yup.

SADY SULLIVAN:Neat. So is there anything that I didn't think to ask about?

JAMES SMITH:No, I don't think so. We sort of got away from the Navy Yard for a while, there but...

SADY SULLIVAN:Oh, that's fine. That's good. Yeah.

JAMES SMITH:Yup. Yeah. When we, uh -- when we got the F-- uh, the first F-14 ready to, uh, go on board the carrier to do flight testing, and the carrier suitability, ahem, there was a point where I worked thirty-seven straight days, and no day was less than eighteen hours.

SADY SULLIVAN:Oh my goodness.

JAMES SMITH:Uh, and we just maxed out that airplane. Everything you could think of that was designed to go in an airplane, it went on the airplane. And somehow the, the Grumman people arranged it with the Navy to have the families come down and watch this launch. So Elsie and the kids came down. And, uh, I was, uh -- because I was a Flight Safety Officer, so my job was to, uh, check various parts of the aircraft. In fact, I would have to lay on my st-- stomach, and get underneath the auxiliary fuel tanks, and get up inside the middle of the airplane, and check all the electrical connections for the weapons system. And, 69:00uh, after I did that -- of course when they, uh, the plane was ready to -- to start up, and, and go, the whole ground would vibrate.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:You know. And it would shoot off. El' says, "Is this what you do everyday?"

SADY SULLIVAN:[laughter]

JAMES SMITH:I says, "Yeah. That's my job." It was good.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:So we went from one industry to another.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm. But I like -- it's neat. The, the overlaps are really -- that's --

JAMES SMITH:Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN:-- kind of cool. Um--

JAMES SMITH:In fact, one interesting was when I was out in Maryland, uh, a bunch, four of us were hanging around. They're -- like the first year or so was Grumman night at the hotel, you know. Thur -- every Thursday night, all the Grummans got together, and we had drinks at the bar, and so forth. The family was still home, yet. So one day somebody says, "You know, why don't we all take 70:00flying lessons?" So, heh, within two days or so, about four of us went down, and I eventually got my pilot's license down there.

SADY SULLIVAN:That's awesome. [laughter]

JAMES SMITH:Yeah. Yeah. Yup. In fact, I have to show you some of my stuff downstairs when you're on your way out.

SADY SULLIVAN:Mm-hmm.

JAMES SMITH:I got my little office down there with all the plaques, and awards I got.

SADY SULLIVAN:Oh, great.

JAMES SMITH:Yup.

SADY SULLIVAN:Great. Well, thank you so much. I'm going to -- this is the, um, a release form --

JAMES SMITH:Mm-hmm.

SADY SULLIVAN:-- um, and I might have another one, um, that -- to send by mail that's with the Navy Yard letterhead. I didn't have any of their letterhead, um, so I brought one from the Historical Society. But this will cover us for now. Um, so basically this just gives this interview to the Navy Yard's archive, and also to the Brooklyn Historical Society's archive --

JAMES SMITH:Right.

SADY SULLIVAN:-- um -- and of course we'll keep you up to date on what's going on with the Historic Center, and, um -- so yeah, if you could fill out that, and then sign down here.

JAMES SMITH:Okay. Sure.