Milton Wurtzel

MILTON WURTZEL: And, ahem, like I was starting to tell you before, that my Navy life was very interesting also aboard ship.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: One of our re, uh, -- our -- our aircraft carriers at Guadalcanal, they had a killer squad out to get all the German submarines they can get.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And they didn't know where they were because the Germans were -- were actually... They were murdering, ahem, uh, trains -- uh, transports and everything, blowing up -- as fast as they got out in the ocean, that's how quick they blew them up and torpedoed them.

SADY SULLIVAN: Um.

MILTON WURTZEL: And that's -- and -- and the food and the materials and the ammunition and the -- and the, uh, coming from the United States never got there. They -- hundreds of thousands and -- hundreds of thousands of tons of shipping was sunk by them --

SADY SULLIVAN: Hmm.

MILTON WURTZEL: -- in the end, they didn't know whether they -- they didn't know whether... They couldn't locate the -- the German submarine, uh, pack. There 1:00were packs, you know. Anyway, uh, finally, the Guadalcanal had their -- they call it the killer squad of, uh, ahem, of pilots that were out every single day, every hour of the day, every, uh, hour of the night. They were out on reconnaissance where they -- they took in areas, different areas to find out if and where they could find the pack. They never found the pack, but they did find a couple of strays, like -- like two, three guys out. One, two... And -- and what happened one day was there were two submarines, German submarines. They didn't know what -- what it was at first, but they got -- they made contact. They made contact and -- and, uh -- and, and then they realized that that could, 2:00ahem -- where the war at -- at that time, that could be the only thing. It can't be any obstruction. The water was very deep and, and stuff like that and when they -- when they figured out where they were, they said, "It must be submarines." So they followed the odd -- the noises on the radar an, uhd -- and -- and they got to a point where the noise got very loud and -- and the, uh, -- the, uh, distance from the surface of the water to the -- to the, uh, ground was getting -- getting close -- narrowing down to -- as far as the -- how many feet -- how -- how deep was it at that point. And -- and when they got that, uh, information, they said they're going to challenge and they challenged the, the 3:00-- the subs and they... Just through their speakers. And, uh, the --

SADY SULLIVAN: How did they do that? What do you mean?

MILTON WURTZEL: They have... They -- they... They didn't challenge them, uh... The -- the planes go -- got their, uh, their contact with the, uh, aircraft carrier.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: The aircraft carrier was doing all the work of trying to get the subs, you know, to --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: -- you know. Ahem. Anyway, um, what happened was the -- no response. They wouldn't -- wouldn't answer back. So the -- the aircraft carrier took it upon themselves, according to whatever -- they figured they -- they -- that the sounds are coming from, throw the depth chargers. They threw their depth chargers, and, uh, the two subs that were there, one got away and the 4:00other one suffered depth charge bo -- uh, bombing.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: It, it, it -- it ruined their -- their, uh, navigation system. Where they -- their -- their rudders and everything were -- the propellers were messed up and they couldn't go anywhere.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: So either they're going to stay down there and just get blown up or they're going to come to the surface, become prisoners of war.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And, uh, and that's what they chose to do. They opted to do that. Uh...

SADY SULLIVAN: To come to the surface?

MILTON WURTZEL: Come to the surface. The, uh... The advice they got from the commander of the Guadalcanal was that... And they -- they -- at this time, he was already on speaking terms with the -- the German submarine commander.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And, uh, and -- and he himself is very interesting. You know, it's a story. It's two human beings, you know, different nationalities and -- 5:00and -- and they're going to -- like killing each other, you know. It's a crazy, crazy kind of a thing. But yet this is what the situation was.

SADY SULLIVAN: Um-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: The submarine out there damaging whatever they could find. Anything that looked like a ship they blew up.

SADY SULLIVAN: Um-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Ahem, and, uh, now this commander said to the German commander, to... Incidentally, the U-boat -- the U-boat was U-boat, uh, submarine U-boat five. The U-5 is what they called it. And I have -- I have a magazine here that has the pictures of our -- uh, of course, they called us from Casablanca to come out to tow this -- this submarine into the United States. Ah, we weren't able to do it. We did it. We didn't take it to the United States, though. We took it in tow and we -- all -- that, that's a different part of the story --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: -- but it's very interesting. But anyway, what I wanted to tell 6:00you was the first part. Uh, they -- they had found out, uh... Well, I was at the point where the commander said, "If you come... If you -- if you surrender, ahem, and bring your -- bring your sub to the surface and you all jump overboard, we'll pick you up. No one will be hurt. You will be prisoners of war and you will not be hurt and you -- you will be treated like the Geneva Conference quotes."

SADY SULLIVAN: Um-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: So they agreed to do that. So they waited and -- and -- and the sub surfaced. The conning tower opened up. One sailor came out of the conning tower and ran forward on the submarine where there was a machine gun, and he was going to machine gun the aircraft carrier. All right. That's kind of stupid.

SADY SULLIVAN: Um-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Well, he didn't last long. That was his -- the only casualty. Only casualty. Everybody else jumped overboard and the Guadalcanal picked them up. They -- they took care of them. They -- they -- they doctored them if anybody need -- needed that.

SADY SULLIVAN: Um-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Um, they -- they, uh, took care of them so that they won't get sick and die because of the -- of the cold water at the time.

SADY SULLIVAN: Um-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: We were in the North Atlantic. That water was oh, freezing like anything.

SADY SULLIVAN: Um-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And, uh, so they took -- they took them aboard. Now we're going to get back to where... Uh, oh. Oh. And -- and -- and -- and the ship was -- the ship was afloat now.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Afloat. But we didn't know what was on that submarine, what kind of booby traps, what kind of problems we may have.

SADY SULLIVAN: Um-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And so therefore, I was on my boat, on my ship, and my ship was 8:00in Casablanca at the time.

SADY SULLIVAN: Um-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And I was -- my first leave I had to go ashore because my captain said I was indispensable. That if I wanted to leave, I -- I couldn't -- I could not leave. I'd have to stay. I -- if I had to be forced to stay, I have to stay and I'll tell you why that was. Um, so, uh, I'm coming back down -- coming back to the ship from leave. I'm walking on -- on -- we're tied up here in -- in Casablanca at a pier and, uh, and I come back and I see there's a -- a tremendous truck right in front of our ship. I said, "I wonder what that's for." Only I knew, 'cause I -- I was by myself. So when I -- as I'm -- as I'm walking and getting closer, I see the men, uh, bringing material out of the truck and 9:00then they -- they were bringing out a ho -- a hawser -- a hawser line. They call it a hawser in Navy language. It was -- it was about eight inches in diameter. Well woven -- real woven -- a tow line.

SADY SULLIVAN: It's a rope but it's that thick?

MILTON WURTZEL: It's rope. Rope.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow.

MILTON WURTZEL: And it's made from, uh, polyester. It's -- it's so strong it -- it's a tow line. It's going to pull the ship --

SADY SULLIVAN: Um-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: -- in heavy waters and stuff like that.

SADY SULLIVAN: Um-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: So -- but uh, I -- I didn't understand why they would want that. So, uh, uh, I had, uh... I had, uh, a division officer at that time. He was a warrant officer but he -- he was rated -- a rated officer and he was a heck of a nice guy. And when he saw me coming up to the -- to the gangway --

SADY SULLIVAN: Um-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: -- to come back aboard ship, uh, he -- he -- he, uh, he saw me 10:00standing there. He says, "Hey, Wurtzel, come aboard." So I come aboard and -- and I said, "What's going on here?" He, he says, "I can't tell you anything now because, you know, ears everywhere and we don't know where they may be or who or what will hear what we have to say. But when we leave, everybody will know. The entire crew will know where we're going and what we're going to do." But in the meantime, they -- all this stuff was being loaded on my -- on my ship. Uh, different kinds of cable, wire, and instruments, and -- I -- I couldn't fathom what it was. I -- I -- I tried to think what it may be. I had an idea what it may be but I didn't know for why. So anyway, when I got aboard ship, I said, "Mr. McPherson," that was his name. He was an, an Irish guy, the nicest guy you 11:00want to meet. The, the -- actually, he was the only one that I really ever liked on the ship, because everybody was showing their power, you know. They wanted to show off how big they were and how great they were and what they were doing. And I'm not going to talk them down.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: They're doing their job whichever way they wanted to do it. So -- so I come aboard and -- and, uh -- I'll call him McPherson for short. McPherson said, "I can only tell you this much. That you're standing right in front of me and I'm looking into your face, so I can tell you that we're leaving at midnight and we're going out to -- Guadalcanal's out there. They made a German sub surface and we're supposed to tow it into Bermuda." Oh. How could we -- we were sea -- a seaplane tender. We carried... I -- I'll, I'll tell you, 12:00100,000 gallons of high octane gasoline on our ship. We refueled PBMs and PBYs out at sea. They would pull up --

SADY SULLIVAN: What are -- what are PBMs?

MILTON WURTZEL: A PBM is a, uh, uh, uh... It's a flying boat.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, okay.

MILTON WURTZEL: So flying boats. So one that could fly and boat and could go on land, too.

SADY SULLIVAN: Um-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And, uh, and a PBM is practically the same thing. A, uh, uh, a floating... They -- they were reconnaissance planes. They would go out day and night. They were out searching... The submarines that were smashing our -- our stuff to -- to heck. I mean, uh, we couldn't get anything over that. The Germans didn't know it was -- it was --it was going.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And -- and so our orders were... McPherson says, "Our orders are to bring a commander, a pyrotechnic commander that they've already notified. 13:00He's going to be coming to the dock here and -- and we're going to take him and he's going to go on the boat before we even go on it and he's going to check the -- check the boat for booby traps and things like that. We don't want to put a crew on and blow them up." And that's what he did. He found a few booby traps that he dismantled, took care of that when we got there.

SADY SULLIVAN: Um-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: It, it took us, uh, better than a day to get there where they were, you know, where the Guadalcanal was.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And -- and there was only... And one day is not far for -- when you're... When you're only, uh doing like, uh, 18 knots. Uh, my -- my ship was able to do 20, 22 knots, uh, uh, uh, an hour like, you know.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: So not to get lost in the discussion. Uh, hee told -- he told me that -- that they raised a sub. The other one got away but this one got damaged 14:00and was circling around, you know, and he couldn't go anywhere, so either he was going to get blown up down there or -- or if you're going to fight, they were going to just get him -- mess him up until he's gone.

SADY SULLIVAN: Um-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Ahem, but this is -- so I told you what they told him, to come up. Jump. You know, you jump in the water, save your lives, be prisoners of war.

SADY SULLIVAN: Um-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: He was a good captain to, to say that, a good -- good commander of that ship.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yes.

MILTON WURTZEL: He really gave -- he didn't -- he wasn't there to kill people, he was there to save them if he could and he -- and he was human, a human being.

SADY SULLIVAN: Right.

MILTON WURTZEL: So... So what happened was we, uh... The, the commander came. The commander we were waiting for came aboard and truck drove away when he came aboard and we shoved off about... It was about 11:30 we shoved off. We untied --untied out the lines and we went out and, uh, we were out maybe six or seven 15:00hours and then we get the word over loudspeaker. "Now, hear this." Captain. "Now, here this. This is -- this is the captain. Uh, we have some news here that has to be spread only to people on this -- on our ship. And, uh, we want you to know that you're -- you're going to do something that may be dangerous. Uh, we..." Well, he also -- he took his time before he told us why, you know, but he -- he laid out the points that, that it was -- it's going to be an exciting thing and everybody be prepared. And, uh, everybody do their job and everything's going to be fine. He made us feel like we're going to be fired at or something, like, you know.

SADY SULLIVAN: Um-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: But -- but not so. It's the way -- we all took it that way. We were so anxious to know what it was all about.

SADY SULLIVAN: Um-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And then -- and then he came across, he said, "We have -- we have surfaced a German submarine, and which the com -- the commander of -- of the Guadalcanal wants for a trophy." [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

MILTON WURTZEL: He wants it as a trophy and we're elected to bring that submarine, as long as -- we were going back to the States at that time.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Uh, to -- to bring, to bring the, uh, submarine to Bermuda, where from Bermuda, it'll be inspected and sent to the United States, and what they're going to do with that is, uh, a very good idea. They're going to take the -- the ship, the sub, and put it on display. I didn't know where they were going to put it on display. And -- and, uh, they're going to use it to raise money. They're going to sell safety bonds on that ship.

SADY SULLIVAN: Hmm...

MILTON WURTZEL: In the U-boat. So [laughter] it was thrilling but it was scary, you know. I said -- and -- "And we're going to have to tow this? 100,000 gallons of high octane gasoline," and I'm spending my days down there because I was sent to inert gas school to make the -- the inert gas that would protect the gasoline that's on that ship.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, wow.

MILTON WURTZEL: To -- I -- I -- I manufactured the gasoline from a little Ford motor, but it was sufficient. It did the job. And I -- I -- and that gas had to be less than -- less than one percent of oxygen in it.

SADY SULLIVAN: Um-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And so it -- it could not ignite anything, you know. It was not -- not enough oxygen. For fire you need oxygen.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And it was not enough oxygen there to -- to -- to, uh, create any prob -- problem. Ahem. So, so now I lost the story a little bit. I -- I -- I 18:00was gonna... Every time I have to explain something, something happens.

SADY SULLIVAN: Um-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: I was, uh...

SADY SULLIVAN: Well, I have a question about the gas. So that was -- when you're -- when the ship was carrying that fuel, it wasn't -- it -- you had to -- there was upkeep that needed to be done? You couldn't just put the fuel on and take it out?

MILTON WURTZEL: No. I'll -- I'll try to explain that.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: The fuel goes into a gas tank.

SADY SULLIVAN: Um-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And it's surrounded by what we call in Navy language a cuff dam, which is another tank just outside of that tank attached to that tank.

SADY SULLIVAN: Um-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And anything that flows out of the gas tank will -- any -- even fumes, whatever --

SADY SULLIVAN: Um-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: -- will go into that tank and not get out into the air.

SADY SULLIVAN: Um-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: So once it's not in the air or the cook is cooking and lights a fire, it could blow us up.

SADY SULLIVAN: Right.

MILTON WURTZEL: You know what I mean? So we're -- that's -- that's what -- why I 19:00was indispensable --

SADY SULLIVAN: Right.

MILTON WURTZEL: -- 'cause save everybody's life on the ship.

SADY SULLIVAN: From a big explosion.

MILTON WURTZEL: And -- and I -- I lost -- I lost twenty-four pounds in a couple of months just doing the job down there because I was near a -- sitting next to a hot motor manufacturing this gas and -- and testing, testing, testing to see that the amount of oxygen that was going in or -- or remaining in the gas wouldn't hurt the gasoline situation.

SADY SULLIVAN: Um-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And then after I ma -- manufactured this gas, I had valves that are opened up to the different tanks in the different areas where they're located and allow this gas to fill into the cuff dams.

SADY SULLIVAN: Um-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And then I had to go around and I had to check the cuff dams to see that they're not losing the gas.

SADY SULLIVAN: Um-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: So I -- I had a very indispensable kind of, uh, uh, job.

SADY SULLIVAN: Um-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And -- and so I was very happy to do it. I mean, I had a job that was -- was necessary.

SADY SULLIVAN: Um-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: I mean, I didn't have to go out and kill people. I could have saved people by having this job and, uh, and, and -- and so, uh... And so anyway, getting back -- getting back to the ship --

SADY SULLIVAN: Um-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: -- we got -- we got to the ship and, uh, the commander went down. He -- he checked out the, uh, the, the ship and everything, found a few booby traps, uh, disarmed the booby traps. But -- but they -- they noticed that when they were on the ship, that the meters -- they're reading the meters there, and -- and the ship was beginning to -- to tilt a little bit.

SADY SULLIVAN: Hmm...

MILTON WURTZEL: That meant there was an op -- opening somewhere. That somebody opened a valve or -- or, uh, or a -- a -- a what do you call it? A window or --

SADY SULLIVAN: Um-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: -- and, uh, water was coming in to the boat. Actually, the 21:00commander had that done so that the boat would sink.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And they wouldn't -- ah, we, we -- if we didn't do all this here, we would have lost the boat while we were trail, trailing it into, uh, into the city.

SADY SULLIVAN: Um-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Into the States, United States. So -- so the commander... So a, a very important feature about this story is that the -- we... This commander searched the ship thoroughly and he found -- and I don't remember what they call this machine or whatever it was that had all the places where the submarines were located in the North Atlantic.

SADY SULLIVAN: Was on the ship that --

MILTON WURTZEL: It was in that recorder.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

MILTON WURTZEL: And, and he found it.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow.

MILTON WURTZEL: And -- and -- and he didn't know exactly where it was because it was in code --

SADY SULLIVAN: Um-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: -- and he had to get it decoded first before he -- we would know where all this was, you know.

SADY SULLIVAN: Um-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: They got -- they got the thing decoded and the United States Navy had a ball.

SADY SULLIVAN: That is a treasure to find. [laughter]

MILTON WURTZEL: What a treasure.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

MILTON WURTZEL: I don't know how many got away, but it was very little to do that much damage anymore.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And, uh, and they weren't even aware of it. They didn't know it was coming. But we knew exactly where they were.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And you know what? They were -- they were just off the coast of Casablanca --

SADY SULLIVAN: Hmm.

MILTON WURTZEL: -- about -- maybe seventy or eighty miles off the coast of 'Blanca -- Casablanca -- and, and to think that I made like about twenty-eight crossings back and forth and, uh, never got challenged by a sub when we went 23:00directly to Casablanca.

SADY SULLIVAN: Hmm.

MILTON WURTZEL: But when we had to go somewhere else, we left Cas -- Casablanca and we were somewhere else, we got challenged, you know. We -- they -- we -- we had to be on our toes every minute.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Uh, but we never went with a convoy. We always went by ourselves, so we were able to maneuver easily and get out of problems with -- and we saved ourselves a number of times. We watched the torpedoes go right past us. That they didn't get us-- I wouldn't be here telling you the story if they did.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow.

MILTON WURTZEL: It didn't take much. It -- all -- all it needed... Uh, when we -- when we refueled these PBMs and PBYs -- god, that's another story. I'll tell you about that.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Uh, anyway, the -- the Guadalcanal was a wonderful, wonderful story, and I have pictures of the submarines.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

MILTON WURTZEL: I got pictures of the German commander. I've got pictures of the -- of the Guadalcanal commander and -- and I didn't know what you do about pictures. Do you take pictures also?

SADY SULLIVAN: The Navy Yard will for sure, yeah. Um, we can talk about that afterwards --

MILTON WURTZEL: Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: -- because that's a whole...

MILTON WURTZEL: But I -- I think the -- I think the Navy has this information --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: -- already recorded.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And, uh -- but -- but I have it recorded.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yes.

MILTON WURTZEL: And -- and it's in a book and the Saturday Evening Post of that, of that -- of 1945. 1945.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow.

MILTON WURTZEL: That's...

SADY SULLIVAN: So the ship -- did you get the ship all the way to Bermuda?

MILTON WURTZEL: No, no.

SADY SULLIVAN: The sub?

MILTON WURTZEL: The -- what happened -- what happened was that, uh, we tied on. We hooked on with them.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And we started to tow them.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And we towed them for one whole day and like part of a night. 25:00And I -- I can't say this and I don't want to say it publicly --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: -- because it -- it will reflect on -- on -- on the commander of my ship.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: He was not going to lose his ship or his men.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: By trailing a bomb.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And he made it known. He says, "I'm going to see if I can get some kind of help from somewhere, that they'll take this thing off our hands."

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Because what was happening... We were -- we were -- we were being slowed down by trailing this submarine.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: This submarine because it -- it had a problem with its... They couldn't set the, the rudder where it would be straight.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

MILTON WURTZEL: They couldn't set it. It was crooked.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: So it just wanted to go around the circle.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

MILTON WURTZEL: But we didn't want to --

SADY SULLIVAN: So it would hit your ship.

MILTON WURTZEL: Well, no. Uh, it wouldn't hit our ship because we had it far 26:00enough in back of us --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: -- that in case something was forgotten and it was on a timing and it was going to blow up, we didn't want it, want it to be too close to us to blow up, you know.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: I mean, that's thinking. I mean, I -- I had a -- a very wonderful commander. He was so great.

SADY SULLIVAN: And that was McPherson or is that someone else?

MILTON WURTZEL: No, no. McPherson was Army. He was an officer. [inaudible officer on the deck and all these guy -- all these officers... I got a picture of this, maybe on the -- on the watch. See it?

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, yeah.

MILTON WURTZEL: That's me on watch when I got my, uh, my, uh, third, uh, class rating. I -- I -- I was able to stand watches like that. Before that, I was, uh, just a plain ordinary seaman, can't stand those watches. You have to -- you had to be, uh, someone -- a rated man to do it.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And when I got my rated man, boy, they gave me that, and I had 27:00this, and I had that, and I had this. And -- and everything was piling up on me. It was getting to be too -- too much but can't do nothing about it. You got to do it, you know. And, uh... And so where did I leave off? I -- I -- I...

SADY SULLIVAN: So he -- the commander said that he didn't want to be pulling a bomb?

MILTON WURTZEL: He -- he did... Yeah. He didn't want to be pulling a bomb.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And he didn't... He -- he didn't want to lose his ship.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: He didn't want to lose his men, first.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Secondly, he didn't want to lose his ship. And he -- he -- he's going to call Air Nave [phonetic] -- that's the main Navy, uh, department.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And ask them if they could at all possibly -- and we know that Bermuda has a beautiful, beautiful tug, ocean going tug.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: I've seen that. I've seen that, uh, uh, be -- because before the war -- I, I, I was in Bermuda before the war, so I -- I knew that tug. I -- I 28:00said, "My god, they call that tug out." The -- the tug was like -- you know what a little tug looks like?

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: This is a big tug. It's the same thing. Spit shiny, the brass -- everything shine because they were always busy working on it.

SADY SULLIVAN: Ah.

MILTON WURTZEL: So one -- one of those guys came out and we waited two days for them to come and they took it over. So we... [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughed]

MILTON WURTZEL: We, we sighed with a breath of relief because it was really... We were towing... We were towing our own destruction.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And -- and, uh, it -- it -- it was just... The guy upstairs was looking out for us.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And so we didn't -- we didn't have a problem with it. But then, was another story I wanted to tell you about. Uh... What was I going to tell you 29:00about? I...

SADY SULLIVAN: Do you want to -- do -- would you be more comfortable in -- in that chair? Do you want to move over, because I can move the microphones if you'd like.

MILTON WURTZEL: Oh, I guess I could sit there.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

MILTON WURTZEL: Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: Why don't you do that?

MILTON WURTZEL: Yeah, okay.

[Interview Interrupted.]

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter] Which reminds me --

MILTON WURTZEL: All right. You can tell me.

SADY SULLIVAN: -- we have to -- we have to go back to -- we have to go back to when you were born in Brooklyn and all of that, and come forward.

MILTON WURTZEL: I'll --

SADY SULLIVAN: But finish telling me what you were just saying.

MILTON WURTZEL: I wasn't...

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

MILTON WURTZEL: I wasn't -- I, I wasn't born in Brooklyn, I was born in Manhattan.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, okay, wait. Tell me, what's your -- what's your date of birth?

MILTON WURTZEL: My -- my date of birth is, is [date redacted for privacy], 1919.

SADY SULLIVAN: Ah. And you were born in Manhattan?

MILTON WURTZEL: I was born in Manhattan on -- on, um Rivington Street.

SADY SULLIVAN: I know Rivington Street.

MILTON WURTZEL: Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: Do you remember the --

MILTON WURTZEL: And I wasn't there very long. Then we moved to Brooklyn. We're -- we're, we're really Brooklynites.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm. Where did you -- where did you move to -- in -- did you move to Kosciuszko Street?

MILTON WURTZEL: Uh... We lived in a couple of places, but Kosciuszko Street was the main street. Uh, you know Kosciuszko Street, where it is?

SADY SULLIVAN: I do.

MILTON WURTZEL: You know where the Beth Bauser [phonetic] Hospital is?

SADY SULLIVAN: Where the what -- what hospital?

MILTON WURTZEL: Beth Bauser's [phonetic] Hospital?

SADY SULLIVAN: No. I know Kosciuszko up near--

MILTON WURTZEL: Well, it's the name of the hospital that's right there.

SADY SULLIVAN: --Broadway.

MILTON WURTZEL: Yeah. Uh, uh, Kosciuszko Street is not exactly near Broad -- it's not too far from it, about two blocks.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Two blocks away from there. Because in between you've got... I think it's Throop Avenue.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm, Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Well, you got -- you got Throop, Summer -- Sumner -- Summer, Thompkins.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: All that, you know.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And, uh, the other side you have DeKalb Avenue, the -- the 31:00market where the -- the market is. Do you know that area? DeKalb Avenue?

SADY SULLIVAN: I know DeKalb but not -- I might be thinking of another end of Kosciusko, um, because I can't picture it. But I can picture where Throop and Thompkins. I --

MILTON WURTZEL: Well, well, yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Well, it, it was right around Throop.

SADY SULLIVAN: So what neighborhood -- what was that neighborhood -- what was it called then? Was it -- was it Bushwick?

MILTON WURTZEL: No. Bushwick was on the other side of the -- of the L.

SADY SULLIVAN: Uh-huh.

MILTON WURTZEL: On the other side. Now, there's a library over there, too--

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: --where I used to frequent on Bushwick Avenue. And, uh --

SADY SULLIVAN: So what was --

MILTON WURTZEL: Stuy -- Stuyvesant Heights.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, okay. Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Right?

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Stuyvesant Heights.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And when -- and when I lived there, there was a lot of brownstone houses on my street.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Beautiful, beautiful houses. And, uh -- and DeKalb Avenue was the next street over.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And -- and, uh, that had a great big market. It was a market street, like, you know, and it had an indoor market. It had a grocer, a butcher. You know, really a -- a -- a -- a -- ag regular market. There were different kinds of merchants in there.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And, uh, it was a nice place. And when I -- I -- when I worked in a shoe factory manufacturing shoes, working with the shoes, um, my mom used to call me. She'd say, "I was -- I was at the, uh, store on DeKalb Avenue, and uh, I have two great big bundles that I couldn't carry." So I said, "Okay, Mom, I'll stop and get it." You know. So when I left, I'd go right up there, walk up 33:00there, and I'd be carrying two big heavy.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

MILTON WURTZEL: I was a little kid, you know

SADY SULLIVAN: Where was the shoe factory?

MILTON WURTZEL: The shoe factory was on Lexington Avenue.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Lexington Avenue. Uh, Lexington and Throop is where the shoe factory was.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm. What was the name of the shoe factory?

MILTON WURTZEL: Uh, well, at first it was, it was called the Lieberman Shoe Factory. Lieberman.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And, uh, there were two brothers, elderly men, both, uh, uh... They had, uh -- that's why it was called the Lieberman, the one name. And they manufactured ladies high grade shoes.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And at that time, a -- a pair of ladies high grade shoes cost $125.

SADY SULLIVAN: At that time?

MILTON WURTZEL: At that time.

SADY SULLIVAN: That's very expensive.

MILTON WURTZEL: Yes.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow.

MILTON WURTZEL: They also had a very expensive shoe store on Madison Avenue.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And that's a money place, you know.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And that's where they sold them.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow.

MILTON WURTZEL: "We made them" -- like the ad on, on TV -- "my father makes it, we this, we that, we -- and my brother sells them," or something like that.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

MILTON WURTZEL: [laughter] That's what it reminds me of. But, yes. Um, they -- they made, uh... They had another factory that made handbags --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: -- like alligator, lizard, stuff like that. Very high -- highly exclusive.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And, uh, they were -- they were pretty good. I ended up -- I ended up being a foreman there from being just a worker scratching on the thing, you know. Uh, doing menial tasks, you know, to get the shoe prepared for the lasters and everything.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: My uncle, one of my father's brothers, worked there. He got me the job.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: He didn't want me to bum around.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: He said, "It's not... Why don't you make yourself a couple of 35:00dol -- dollars. You know, you have expenses."

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: In any way --

SADY SULLIVAN: How old were you when you started working there?

MILTON WURTZEL: Um... I was... I -- I guess I -- I -- I had just starting going to -- to high school, I think. I went to Tobin [phonetic] High.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And, uh, I -- I --

SADY SULLIVAN: So like thirteen, fourteen?

MILTON WURTZEL: -- I enjoyed working in a factory.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Because, you know, anything that's -- that I can put into my head, like it's -- it's a challenge, you know, and -- and when I -- when I work on something and I -- if, if -- if it's a challenge... You have to do it right or don't do it at all.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And that's my motto. Do it right, don't do it at all.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And that's the way I -- I adhere to that. If I can't make it, I won't do it.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: But if I can make it, I want to do it right. So that was very 36:00nice. There was something I wanted to tell you, but -- in one second -- if I don't tell you right away, it fades away, it flips away.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

MILTON WURTZEL: But then it comes back again. That's -- that's my instant not knowing, you know, what I want to do or say.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah. Was it about your -- that your uncle worked there also?

MILTON WURTZEL: Yeah. Well -- well, I don't know if it was that, uh...

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: My -- my uncle worked there and -- and, uh, he -- he put me in like under his wings and he was a laster. He used to, uh...

SADY SULLIVAN: What does that mean?

MILTON WURTZEL: Uh, uh, oh -- there's a... There's a cutting room where they cut that pattern out.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: The next room is ours, which is lasting.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And -- and we have wooden -- like the -- you ever see wooden lasts?

SADY SULLIVAN: Uh -- oh, yeah. Like the shoe -- the foot form.

MILTON WURTZEL: Yeah, right, like a shoe.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

MILTON WURTZEL: You know, made out of wood.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Well, we had that but we had it and like thirty-six pair of them on a rack.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And each one of them was a pair of -- going to be a pair of shoes.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: The cutter sends in the -- the --the leather.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Oh, the size and everything. And each one of these are marked with a size: five and a half, six, six and a half, seven, like that. They're... And -- and -- and the laster -- my uncle used to take the size that was -- matches -- matching the, uh, the, uh, uh, the wood.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And he would take the piece of, uh, material after it gets all sewn up by all the other people in my room, and they did all the stitching and the designs and everything, and it became one big piece.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Then this whole one big piece gets fitted over the piece of wood.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And takes the shape because they're -- it's wet, it's damp. It goes into a room, gets damp.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And -- and -- and it forms the shape of the -- of the lasts. The wood is called a last.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Pair of lasts, you know. And, uh, the -- the lasts... Uh, when 38:00-- after my uncle does that, then -- then it came to me.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Because I had to clean it up for them to put the sole on. They had to put a sole on it.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And then -- then the heel had to be put on. So -- but this had to be perfectly right. And I did such a good job on it that in a few years I became a foreman. [laughter] My -- my -- my boss said, uh... Said, uh, "I'm making you a production foreman. You have to see that so much -- so many shoes go out a day." Now, so, when, when I first started there, they -- they were only making about a thousand pair of shoes a day.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And, uh, and when I left them, they were making 2,500 pairs of shoes a day.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow.

MILTON WURTZEL: I did a good job for them, but they weren't appreciative.

SADY SULLIVAN: How did you -- what -- what did you do that increased production 39:00like that?

MILTON WURTZEL: I, uh, I -- I set up -- I set up, uh, operations where -- like, uh... I -- I -- I didn't waste time. In other words, I took time and crowded it to be able to, in one minute, look and see what I want and be able to get what I want. Not to have to look or ask "where is this, where is that, what the..." I had my own way of doing things. Uh, like I had bins made and, and, and -- and the bins were made with, uh, all the sizes of the lasts.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And then -- and -- and they took that up because they liked that idea. They threw all the lasts in so that the laster didn't have to look through a bundle of stuff, you know. And -- and they -- and they found the last right away. Bing, bing, bing, bing. In five minutes, the guy had thirty-six pair of shoes on a rack and -- and he had -- from -- from the, uh, uh, from the cutter, 40:00he had a batch of thirty-six shoes that he had to put on there.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: So that thing went on that rack, you know, and the next guy who had a fitter -- like my uncle, he was the fitter. And he would -- he would fit it. And -- and knock in a couple of tacks, you know. And, um, and -- and, and then, uh, it would be more than a couple of tacks. It -- he would -- he would be tacking the whole side around and -- and tacking it in. Just forward, he pulled it over, he tacked it so that it would perf -- when it dried, it dried to that form.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: But you couldn't leave those tacks in.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: So then I became a tack puller.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: So I went, bup, bup, bup, bup, bup, bup, bup, bup. Like that.

SADY SULLIVAN: Would you use a tool to do that or did you do that by hand?

MILTON WURTZEL: That -- yeah. I had -- there was a tool. You couldn't do it by hand. You couldn't pull it out.

SADY SULLIVAN: Okay.

MILTON WURTZEL: That was, uh, wood. Tied into the wood. So I had looked... I 41:00don't know what tool... You know what it looked like? It looked like a, a knife that has little edges for cutting bread like.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, yes. Serrated.

MILTON WURTZEL: But now -- who just came -- went out of my driveway? Did my car just lose -- leave the place or did your car leave the place?

SADY SULLIVAN: Hmm... Nope, both cars.

MILTON WURTZEL: They're both there?

SADY SULLIVAN: I think -- I think someone maybe is lost or something. They're --

MILTON WURTZEL: Oh, yeah, okay. That's what it must be, yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: -- parking on the road.

MILTON WURTZEL: Because I saw the red lights. He's still down there?

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah. He put his hazards on. Parking there maybe.

MILTON WURTZEL: Yeah. Well, as long as I can see him, I know where he is.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yup. [laughter]

MILTON WURTZEL: A -- anywhere, um, I'm giving you the process of, uh, uh, making shoes now.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah, it's neat. I like learning this stuff.

MILTON WURTZEL: Yeah. You like -- you, like learning about it?

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah. Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Good.

SADY SULLIVAN: That's okay. And then as long as we -- we have to be this detailed about, um, in the Navy Yard, too.

MILTON WURTZEL: Okay.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter] But we'll get to that next.

MILTON WURTZEL: Yeah. All right.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And, uh, and I want you to know that I -- I went to, um -- I went to a school in Manhattan. Uh, uh, I forgot the name of the school. But it was a school for, for learning to do pattern work and stuff like that.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And when -- when I came back -- when I came back there -- there were -- I had -- we had a patternmaker in -- in -- on my floor who made his patterns, his ideas. He cut them... You know, uh, what -- what kind of a shoe? An open toe, closed toe, strapped toe, uh -- all straps. And anyway, he did -- he was a designer.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: He -- he made -- he made the -- the designs for it. So, uh, ah, after a while, I, uh, I was the fitting room foreman and -- and I increased the 43:00-- the, the uh, the amount of shoes we made per day by supervising the way -- the way you had your day's work lined out for you.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: That you -- you aren't wasting time and that you would know what you're looking for when you're looking for it.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And if you have any questions, you were able to answer questions, you know.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: So that -- that increased my production the, the first year I was there.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And, uh, my boss wasn't satisfied with that increase. He said, "do you ha --" He said, "Uh, Milt," he says, "you have to make me more shoes. We don't get enough shoes." I says, "Okay," I said. "But, you know, I'm going to forewarn you now. You're not going to be able to get too much production because 44:00we have what is known -- the best thing in the world, and maybe you don't realize it, but you have artisans here. You have people that come from all over the European countries and they are -- they are excellent, excellent stitchers on machines, you know, sewers and things like that. And they can do work like no American can do. They -- they can do it." And I said, "And slowly but surely, I want you to know, Mr. Geller, we're losing them. They're dying."

SADY SULLIVAN: Hmm.

MILTON WURTZEL: I said, "And when -- and when -- if you're going to wait for the last drop of blood, you're going to have a lot of trouble because what happens next is you're going to have to get anybody you can, and the near -- nearest thing you're going to be able to get, not to have anything against them, you're going to have to have the -- get Spanish people."

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: "Then you're going to have problems. You're going to have a language barrier."

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: "You're going to have to teach them. You won't be able to teach them, they won't understand what you're talking about. And -- and you can... 45:00You'll have more damage and loss of money then -- then you could ever get by making, uh, a shoe bad. You would not ever be able to do that kind of work.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: "So you have to bear with it. If you want to start a school, or breaking in stitchers, double needle and stuff like that, you have to do it now." kayK, so, that --

SADY SULLIVAN: And what year would this be around?

MILTON WURTZEL: What?

SADY SULLIVAN: What year was this? About?

MILTON WURTZEL: This was, uh... This was just before the war.

SADY SULLIVAN: Okay.

MILTON WURTZEL: So this must have been somewhere around '38 or '39, some -- somewhere around there.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Because when I left him --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: -- I -- I -- I just had to leave there because he -- he was never satisfied.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And I -- and I wasn't going to break my neck anymore.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: I was working too hard as it was.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And, uh... Well, that's another story.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: So anyway, uh, I -- I really regulated the, um -- the entire fitting room outside. We had two foremen in the fitting room. We had me and one guy that was a foreman over the people who did the stitching, the actual intricate work, you know, and, and see if there's any... You know, if you -- if you made a stitch and you went offline, that's a damage.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And when you damage a $125 pair of shoes, that's -- you can't -- you can't always fix it.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: But there's some that if you do damage, you can fix it.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: So, uh -- so I warn -- I warn -- warned him about this and I -- I didn't know if he thought I was kidding him or what, because he was a -- a young man, too. He was never in a -- he never was in the shoe business. His father brought him in to take over the shoe business, and the other father 47:00brought his son in. So there were two sons now --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: -- working. There were... Excuse me. They were nice in the beginning. They were still nice when I knew them, and they had every right to tell me what they wanted to tell me.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Uh, 'cause I -- I was not -- not making good money there anyways. I was, I was just about beaten. They -- they didn't pay enough because at the time I started I started as, uh, like a kid, you know.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And here I was -- I was already there about six, seven years, and I felt I should have a little more respect, a little more money.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And, uh, I wasn't getting that, so... So then the next time he came up and he said, "Milt, we need more shoes," I said, "I warned you, Doc --" Uh, uh -- his name was Andrew. "I, I warn, I warned you, Andrew. That you're not 48:00-- you don't have the same people anymore. A few more died." I said, "And -- and, uh, if you want to take a chance with what you got, then you take a chance. But I don't want to be responsible for what they're doing and I don't think -- I don't think, uh, uh, the other foremen should be responsible, too, because, you know, you can teach a -- you can teach a horse to go to water, but you can't make him drink."

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: You know? And, uh, that's the way it was. So he says, "Well -- well, Milt, uh, if you can't do it, somebody has to do it." Like telling me, "Well, if you can't do it, I'll have to get somebody else," you know.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: So I beat him to the punch. I says, "Mr. Geller, I can't do it. I can't do it, so you get somebody else." See, I beat him to the punch. I didn't want to feel guilty.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: I said, "You get somebody else, and, uh, train them and maybe they can do it. But I can't do any better for you."

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And so I left him and I went to work in a slipper factory. I didn't like that kind of work because I'm accustomed to high grade shoes and making nice things, you know.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: So I -- I left there. Then -- then -- then suddenly the war broke out.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And, uh, I -- I was pushing myself to get into -- into, uh, uh, what do you call it? Uh, into the -- the wartime work, you know, the -- what do they call wartime work? I -- I'm missing out. And I hate the -- I -- and I'm glad you can edit this thing.

SADY SULLIVAN: The war effort?

MILTON WURTZEL: Yeah. I wanted to get into the war effort. I wanted to -- I wanted to do something --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: -- that I felt was... I -- I would be able to do a lot easier, a lot better, and enjoy.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And maybe more money.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: So I used to, uh, I used to sha -- what they call shape up down 50:00at the Navy Yard.

SADY SULLIVAN: What does that mean?

MILTON WURTZEL: Shape up means, uh -- a lot of people are looking for work and they -- they come down to a building where a guy who has the responsibility of hiring will come out and say, "Well, I -- I-- I need a steel man, I need a riveter, I need a grinder, I need this, I need that." And if anybody had the qualifications, he -- they'd raise their hands and he took them right away and then he would question them. If he didn't -- wasn't pleased with them, out. You know, he had to have somebody who could do the work. Because -- because we've had experience, right? Even after I got in with that stuff being pulled out, they knew this and they knew that, and they didn't know it.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And -- and -- and I was called in to -- I was called in to, uh, teach them, like, welding. I -- I can't believe what I learned. I can't believe what I learned. And it -- it -- it did me so much good because my mind was 51:00running in that path. Uh, working with tools and, uh, being able to do this kind of work and that kind of work. Like being able to weld. Weld with, with a rod. Being able to weld with, uh, with a, a -- an acetylene torch. And -- and -- and using like solder or something, you know. And, uh, uh, being able to, uh, uh, to, uh, chip and caulk like with a hammer, an air hammer. A hammer that you would get supplied with -- with, uh -- the energy comes from a hose that shoots air into this thing and, uh, you use a chisel. If you want to -- if you want to knock a -- a -- a weld that's already welded or you want to knock something off, that -- that you could, uh, uh, you're able to put the -- put the chisel there 52:00and be able to knock off that weld, you know, and take like a whole big string of, of metal angle iron chunk, you know. Like I did that -- I had to do that on my ship. That's another story.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

MILTON WURTZEL: I had to do that on my ship when I -- when I came from, uh... After I was inducted and I -- and I went to boot camp... I was there six weeks in boot camp and, uh... And, and and, and then... This is -- this is -- I already had... I was inducted into boot -- into the service from the Navy Yard. You have to know. I had al -- already learned all these beautiful things in the Navy, and then I went to the Navy. I says, "I -- I -- I insist on something better than swabbing floors."

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And I told them. I -- I'm -- I'm just drifting like this, but I 53:00want you to see --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: -- hear the stories.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: When -- when -- when -- when I -- I went home on six weeks leave from -- from -- from the, uh... From, uh, up north. From -- from my, uh, boot camp.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And then I had to -- I had to report back again to Norfolk, Virginia, and I had to wait in a special area where they had guys like us waiting for assignment. And so that when they assigned me to a ship, I was very happy, because I really wanted to be on the ship.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And, uh, when I finally got to the ship -- I'm going to cut this a little short so we don't waste too much time. Uh, when I finally, finally got to the ship with my group that was assigned to the ship -- we were about 14 people that was assigned to the Humboldt.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And, uh, we were standing outside on a dock and these guys 54:00were... It was a rainy, nasty day and -- and the officer -- there was the officer of the deck, the guy with the gun that's standing at the gangways so you couldn't get onto the ship.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: That's what he was there for.

SADY SULLIVAN: And, uh, and an officer. This was a -- like a lieutenant. Or not -- not -- not a big shot officer. Just maybe war -- not a warrant officer. The warrant officer was the nicest guys you ever want to meet. Uh, he was -- he was just like a lieutenant. And not that he was not nice, but the one that I -- the one that I got, I -- I -- I knew him for two and a half years, and each -- each day I, I disliked him more and more, because he was not nice.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter] Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Not nice. And, uh, and just to show you how not nice he was: While I was there for two and a half years, I had an aviation bombardiers jacket, a leather jacket. A beautiful jacket that I was wearing. I wore it two 55:00and a half years. And when -- when -- when -- when my, uh... When -- when my, uh, commander called me up and -- and said to me, "Well, Indispensable, you're going to be dispensable now." He says, "The ship is going in to -- for repairs and reconstruction. We, we're going -- going to become a radio ship and we're going to the Pacific." From the Atlantic to the Pacific. And I said, "Oh, my god. I got to go to the Pacific now?" He says, "But I promise you, I'm holding my word. I told you, I'll make it up to you if you stay, because I really want the [inaudible] out badly."

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: He says, "If you stay, I'll make it up to you." He says, "I'm making it up to you now." He says, "You're not going to go to the Pacific. You're going to go home for thirty days leave," because we went home on points 56:00and I had -- and I needed maybe another two points. So the commander -- and my commander had my records. He said, "You only need a couple of points." And he says, "For the, for the wonderful work that you've done for me, and I appreciate it, I'm giving you thirty days leave. Report to Lido Beach, Long Island for discharge." That was a wonderful gift.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And that's how I got discharged.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Because I -- he said he needed me. That's why he called me dis -- indispensable, [laughter] I was indispensable and now you know why I was indispensable. I protected the darn ship from blowing up.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: I had -- I couldn't help if -- if, uh, if a southerner who, who, didn't wear shoes, he's in the Navy, would do something. And they did. They came up smoking cigarettes.

SADY SULLIVAN: Hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And we're refueling planes, ah, not a hundred feet away from them.

SADY SULLIVAN: Ugh.

MILTON WURTZEL: How dumb could you be when they know why -- why...? And the word was "the smoking lamp is out." That means you can't light up anything. Nothing. Can't use any machinery that sparks or anything like that.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Absolutely no sparks or anything.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: But they don't understand.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

MILTON WURTZEL: They couldn't even -- they couldn't even write their own name.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

MILTON WURTZEL: They couldn't write their own name. That's how they were.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And I -- it's not, not my fault, not the captain's fault. It's -- it's -- they didn't care who they -- who they got in the, in the service, you know. As long as they had somebody to do the floor and this and that, you know. These guys never got anywhere.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

MILTON WURTZEL: It's all right. It's all right. It's okay. I, I just bent wrong. This is my bad leg.

SADY SULLIVAN: Okay.

MILTON WURTZEL: Uh.

SADY SULLIVAN: Do you want something?

MILTON WURTZEL: Anyway.

SADY SULLIVAN: Water or anything?

MILTON WURTZEL: No. No. I get this quite often now. I -- I have a liniment that I rub in.

SADY SULLIVAN: Uh-huh.

MILTON WURTZEL: And that -- that decreases the pain when I get it.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: So I'm happy for that.

SADY SULLIVAN: It's the sciatic or is it...?

MILTON WURTZEL: That's -- that's what the sciatica did to me.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

MILTON WURTZEL: That's what it did to me. And it's down right here in my crotch, you know.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And -- and the girl at the rehab, uh, she used to do my knee because I thought -- I thought it was from my knee.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: But my -- my knee wasn't affected by it. But the main thing was that sciatic nerve that crawls up here and goes into your backside --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Ah, anyway.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Anyway...

SADY SULLIVAN: Can you tell me again what the -- about the shape up? I haven't heard about that.

MILTON WURTZEL: Oh, oh. Shape up... How, how did I get off of it without telling you?

SADY SULLIVAN: Well, you -- you did tell me--

MILTON WURTZEL: Oh, I told you something else, right?

SADY SULLIVAN: --but I want to hear about your -- I want to hear how it was for you. Did you have to go more than once?

MILTON WURTZEL: Oh, yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: Or did you get lucky the first time?

MILTON WURTZEL: No, no. I --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: I shaped up. Like I say, I shaped up and so did, uh, another 59:00fifty or sixty guys, you know.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And, uh.

SADY SULLIVAN: Where would it be?

MILTON WURTZEL: Then --

SADY SULLIVAN: Where -- do you remember where in the Yard?

MILTON WURTZEL: Right at the Navy Yard. Right at -- at the -- you were not inside the gate.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: You were outside the gate.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And they came out and they called for ship fitters. They wanted, uh, ironworkers, they wanted riveters, they wanted all that. That's what you needed for ship -- for building ships.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: Was that the main gate that's on, um, Flatbush or Sands Street?

MILTON WURTZEL: Sands Street.

SADY SULLIVAN: Sands Street gate. OK, cool.

MILTON WURTZEL: Was Sands Street.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And that's where I went in all the time.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And, uh, so... So that's what they would do. They would come out from the different divisions. There was -- there was foremen in every branch: welding, uh, uh, shipping, caulking, uh, uh, blueprint reading, uh... So many 60:00different things, you know. And -- and I managed to get into every one of them once I was in and I learned. I really learned. I learned to read blueprints like -- I couldn't believe it, how fast I -- I picked that up.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Uh, anyway, I'm drifting again. I shouldn't drift. Let me tell the, the story like --

SADY SULLIVAN: Okay.

MILTON WURTZEL: [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: Well, I have a -- I have a --

MILTON WURTZEL: Do you still want to know about the...

SADY SULLIVAN: So tell me about when you went... So you went -- you shaped up.

MILTON WURTZEL: So -- so -- so I shaped up.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: I shaped up.

SADY SULLIVAN: And how did --

MILTON WURTZEL: And then -- and, and it must have been a holiday day that I shaped up and there must, must have only been about fifteen guys there. From fifty to about fifteen only. A guy comes out and he says, uh, "I need some ship fitters. Uh, nobody?" I said, "How about if I'm willing to learn ship fitting. Would that be all right?" "Ah," he says, "Well, I got to have somebody." [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

MILTON WURTZEL: So he took me in. That was the beginning of my career in -- in -- in the Navy Yard.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: So the first thing I did was -- I put -- they put me in school.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: They put me in school. They gave me a big fat book like this here.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: With everything about shipbuilding, uh, what this is called, what that's called. What's a stringer, what's a deck, uh, what's a divot. Uh, what's a hawser? What's, what's this, what's that, you know. And I -- I got to know every phase about -- which I already knew because I was a fisherman.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And I had a boat and I -- and -- and it's no difference whether, whether you have a little boat or you have a -- a big boat.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: The idea is the same. Like -- like, uh, after a while, we built a bow for the Missouri, and -- and the build -- building four was a tremendously 62:00high building. It had cranes running back and forth on -- and they carried all the metal you needed. Big sheets, heavy sheets of metal. Many a guy got killed because some of these thing -- things slipped and fell and killed them. But, uh, we had all that. We had -- anything you wanted in there, we, we had as far as to build -- to build something. Um, and, uh, so. Huh. When they -- when he took me, I si -- had to sign up, give him all my information, everything, where I lived and all that. And, uh, they asked me what I know about tools and stuff like that. Well, I know about hammers, screwdrivers, and stuff like that. I says, "But what kind of tools you talking about?" And they said, "We're talking about pneumatic tools. We're talking about welding tools and stuff like that." I said, "No." He says -- said, "OK, now I know where you're going. You're going to school." Put me right in school. The first thing they did, they put me into 63:00school and -- and I was taught a number of things, about seven or eight things to do. Ahem, and, uh, mostly they wanted me to be able to read prints. So I had -- every session they had a print reading.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: So I used to read it and they used to check you on it, see how well you're doing. If you're doing well and you're do, doing pretty good and the others, they're sending you right out into the field.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: So you're under supervision of a supervisor who you're going to work for.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And he's going to know that you just came out of school.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: So he wouldn't blast you, because some of these guys thought they was god's treat on earth or something, I know.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Uh, they -- they thought they were everything. And, uh...

SADY SULLIVAN: So were you getting paid to work when you were going to school?

MILTON WURTZEL: Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, that's good.

MILTON WURTZEL: Oh, I was getting paid from the minute I signed my name to the -- to the agreement.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: I was getting paid. I was getting, ahem-- The ferry -- a ferry just went by. Look to the right. You see lights moving?

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh. Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: See moving lights?

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: That's a ferry.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Or some, sometimes you -- you --no, that was done. That, that must have been, uh, a tugboat.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

MILTON WURTZEL: You see so many things here. It's unbelievable.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Anyway.

SADY SULLIVAN: So who was the -- who was the instructors in the school?

MILTON WURTZEL: They were teachers.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: They were teachers that, that, uh, were actually people who were -- who graduated from all this here stuff, that they knew it, knowing they were -- and they were going to teach now.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: They didn't fool around.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: You know, they couldn't fool around. It was a -- we were in a war.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: You couldn't fool around.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And, uh, so they taught me to weld. I found it -- I found that 65:00in the beginning -- like electric welding.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Electric welding, they, they want -- they want you to -- they get a piece of scrap iron, two pieces, they put it together, and they tell you, "Weld these together."

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And so the, the very first time I -- I tried it, I -- I got the feel of it and I said, "Uh-uh. If you don't -- ah, if you don't do it right, it's not going to work." So what I found myself doing was I -- I was coming down with a little too much pressure and the rod hit the metal and -- and made -- made the -- the feeling of the weld, but what it was doing, it was shorting the rod that I was holding because I was getting a high voltage through the wire.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And I'm touching a piece of grounded metal.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: That's what -- that's what gives you the arc.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And, uh, so -- so -- so it would -- the wire -- the welding wire 66:00would get stuck, the tip of it, get stuck to the table. So you'd have to go like -- like a quick bend like, and you shake it off. And it took me maybe -- maybe getting stuck about four, five times when I realized that that's not the way to go, that you have to go gently. If you scrape it gently and find out what this voltage is doing for you, you're going to be able to do it. And once -- once you start it and it's working good for you, that's what you're using. You're pulling that down and you're depositing from that lead drive into the crack, filling the crack up, and you're adhering two pieces of steel with a steel piece of flex, you know.

SADY SULLIVAN: Ah-choo. Excuse me.

MILTON WURTZEL: Oh, god bless you.

SADY SULLIVAN: Um, so that was electric welding?

MILTON WURTZEL: That -- no.

SADY SULLIVAN: Is that --

MILTON WURTZEL: Well, yeah, that was electric welding. Yes.

SADY SULLIVAN: Is that different from the acetylene torch welding?

MILTON WURTZEL: Yeah. Acetylene torch -- electric welding you have a, a lot of power, of, uh... You have to be supplied with a lot of electric power to do that.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Acet -- uh, uh, the other torch is acetylene welding.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And you have to -- that's gas feeding you your energy.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And so you have to -- it's gas and oxygen together,r and a certain amount of gas and a certain amount of oxygen goes -- flows through the pipe and goes up to your torch. Your torch is a long torch like this here.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: This is a torch. This is no -- no welding things.

SADY SULLIVAN: So this is like a foot of flame --

MILTON WURTZEL: Just a torch.

SADY SULLIVAN: -- you mean?

MILTON WURTZEL: No. No, no, no.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, no. Okay.

MILTON WURTZEL: The torch -- the torch is -- say the torch is about a foot and then there's a tip goes onto it, gets screwed in and that tip has various sizes. You can get a big, flat flame if it -- if you're required. You can get a short 68:00flame. And then there's a, a tuning flame that you can tune whatever you got.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And if you're -- you got the tip you want, and you want to make it a little lesser or, you know, not so hot, you're able to turn that down. When you turn it down, you're turning the volume of gas that's going through to the thing.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And, uh, and you have, and you have to know how to handle that, too.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Because you have to be a certain distance away from what you're cutting. Like if this is the sheet... And, and -- say you want to cut this in half. So you have to be like so far away from it, with the fire on it. The heat -- the heat from the torch gets right on there and softens the metal so quickly. Then when you press it, the air shoots power into -- into the flame and phew, cuts it right off.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm. I didn't know that.

MILTON WURTZEL: You, you -- you follow pretty good.

SADY SULLIVAN: I like this stuff.

MILTON WURTZEL: Yeah. you're good at that.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

MILTON WURTZEL: Yeah. Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Uh... There were many -- many things that, uh -- that you come across that you sometimes have to ask the supervisor, because you don't want to damage it, you know. And -- and you ask him, and he'll tell you. So -- and you do it. And if -- and if you damage it and if you told him about it, then he forgives you.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

MILTON WURTZEL: Okay, so... But if you didn't tell him about it... I mean, I -- I got to know the tricks that they use there in order to satisfy the supervisors, because they were responsible for you. And -- and then, uh, uh, like I said -- before we built the Missouri bow -- before I built the Missouri bow, we were building landing crafts, landing crafts. I don't know if you know what a landing craft is.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: A landing craft is actually a -- an open box. And the front has the door, flaps down. And so on the beaches, when you got to the beaches, that's what they used for the invasion.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: When you got to the beaches, the flap went down and you rolled off onto the beach.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And lots and lots of guys nev, never did more than that. They got killed.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Uh, it was un -- unbelievable. And those -- and those were dispensable. They didn't care what happened to those things because they were junk, you know. Once they got them on the beach there, they don't care if they ever -- ever got them back.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

MILTON WURTZEL: That was the losses we had to take. But that was -- that was the means of getting our men to the beach.

SADY SULLIVAN: So that was what you were first working on -- on building when you got to the Navy Yard?

MILTON WURTZEL: When -- no. When -- when I got to the Navy -- Navy Yard, my -- my first -- my first jobs were, um... My first jobs were -- were very simple 71:00jobs. Like almost it didn't have to do with, uh, with the war effort.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Uh, it was like, uh... Like, uh, on -- on the ships, when they put up what they call a stringer, like about every -- every -- every ten feet or twelve feet, whatever the regulation is, there's a string that goes from -- from the -- from -- from the keel, which is the bottom one.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: The bottom steel keel. Goes up like that, it makes the shape of the -- the boat, all right, of the ship.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: It -- and they call -- about every ten feet they put a, uh, a bar, a steel -- like a -- they call that a T-bar. The T-bar was like this here. 72:00And -- and, uh, they were strengthening bars for the, for the plates that have to go on.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Plates get welded on, too. But first -- first comes -- well, first comes the -- the, uh... Anyway, I just -- just said the word and I forgot it already.

SADY SULLIVAN: The hull? The...?

MILTON WURTZEL: The--? No.

SADY SULLIVAN: Stringer?

MILTON WURTZEL: Oh, excuse me. The, um... All right. I'll get it -- it'll come out in a couple of seconds.

SADY SULLIVAN: Okay.

MILTON WURTZEL: Anyway, first comes the -- the layout of the main -- middle of the ship. You start with the central line.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: That's the central line. And -- and then you get, uh, these, uh, T-bars and the T-bars get -- get -- they -- they go right up onto the ship and 73:00they get welded to the -- to the -- to the -- I'm -- I'm going to get there.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

MILTON WURTZEL: And it gets welded to that. So now you got a, a -- a bar that's up like that there.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And then you get, say, like -- we had thirty of those on a boat. Each side had thirty of them. Again --

SADY SULLIVAN: Along the whole length of the ship there would be thirty?

MILTON WURTZEL: Yeah. Of, of -- of the bulk -- only the bow. We only made the bow.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

MILTON WURTZEL: We made the bow inside, in the building.

SADY SULLIVAN: What building?

MILTON WURTZEL: Building four.

SADY SULLIVAN: So the bow of the Missouri was -- that whole bow was built in building four?

MILTON WURTZEL: Yeah. Well, it was not -- it was not that tremendous.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

MILTON WURTZEL: Because building four could handle that.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: It was -- the -- we didn't make the bow that we couldn't get it out once we did it, you know.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

MILTON WURTZEL: So we were able... We -- we made the bow up to a certain point--

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: --we could only go up to a point where the back would be taken out, brought to the -- to the -- to the building ways where they have the rest 74:00of the Missouri --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: -- and take it and lower it with the crane right down to where it's supposed to fit and weld in that and -- so then -- now you got the bow you got the whole chip.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm. Was that the hammerhead crane that moved?

MILTON WURTZEL: Oh, you know a lot about those things.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

MILTON WURTZEL: Yeah. It was a hammerhead crane. Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Oh, that's -- that's smart. That's very smart.

SADY SULLIVAN: The hammerhead crane's neat.

MILTON WURTZEL: Yeah. The hammerhead crane was really something.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: I -- I know the hammerhead crane was very -- heh. I used to make jewelry with the hammerhead crane.

SADY SULLIVAN: How -- what do you mean?

MILTON WURTZEL: I made jewelry.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, like of -- a picture of it or...?

MILTON WURTZEL: No. Well, I used to kid around that way. I would take... I would take two pieces of stainless steel wire, all right? I would chip off the flux that's on there. There's a flux that makes -- makes it allow -- allows you to be 75:00able to weld with it, because that flux is cleaning as you're welding.

MILTON WURTZEL: That's what the flux was for.

SADY SULLIVAN: SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Nothing else.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: To clean what you're welding so you can -- so you'd be able to weld it. Uh... The, um... Okay. Don't lose your thought now. The -- that's --

SADY SULLIVAN: The hammerhead crane.

MILTON WURTZEL: It's very, uh, it's very unappetizing when you do that.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

MILTON WURTZEL: And uh --

SADY SULLIVAN: The jewelry.

MILTON WURTZEL: And the jewelry. After you clean the flux, you're left with a piece of steel wire.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: The steel was stainless steel. So you didn't even have to clean it up. Just get the flux off.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And then take -- you take the two pieces and put them in a -- in a -- in a -- in a -- in a -- oh, god. Anyway, you put it -- you either put it in a -- a pliers that you can pinch, hold tight.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And then just keep twisting it. Trying to still -- trying to get the wire -- but you don't usually do it -- I -- I made jewelry that way but I didn't have to have the... I didn't have to have the -- the, uh... Come on, you know what I'm talking about.

SADY SULLIVAN: Like a -- a winch or...

MILTON WURTZEL: Not -- not the winch. There's a -- you're close, you're close.

SADY SULLIVAN: A clamp?

MILTON WURTZEL: Like a clamp. What do you call it? A -- a vise.

SADY SULLIVAN: A vise. Yes. [laughter]

MILTON WURTZEL: Okay, we got it. Okay. I would -- I would put it in a vise.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Both of them together. I -- I -- I would start with one turn.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Put that turn in a vise. Then I would take my pliers and -- and -- and I usually took the one that you could, uh, uh, lock in. Once I have it on the wire, I could lock it that it won't slip out.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: I will put it in like that there and I would start turning. And 77:00so -- so I'm getting a braid, you know.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: I'm getting a braid. So for however long the wire was, that's what I was getting. I -- so normally, a -- a -- a rod is like maybe ten inches.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: So I get a couple of them, clean them all off like that and take two of them -- take four -- four rods, clean them off, go over to the hammerhead crane, put it on the track of the hammerhead crane where -- where those big wheels have to go over it -- and that crane was -- weighed 27,000 pounds or something like that.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And -- and, uh, I put one in -- one in front of it and then the crane went over it and flattened it down to like -- like this here. Even thinner. You know, it was -- it was down like this here, like that. I had two perfect pieces that I could bend with heat and everything. I could bend it. If 78:00it was -- if it was too small, I'd add the other piece on to it, you know. I -- I'd add whatever I needed, because I would always measure a wrist if I was making it for somebody. I would measure their wrist and see how long it needed and what I had to allow for -- for being able to get it on a hand and to allow for shrinkage in the heat. And, and -- and so... And I would -- and I would do that. And then if I had -- if it was too short, I would add that piece on and -- and I was able to weld with stainless steel. I could weld with anything, or even with, uh, if I had a piece of steel, stainless steel, I could do with my other one, with the gas welding, you know, and all that. And -- and it would -- and it would fuse it, all right. And then I just had a little piece like that that I had to file, so I was able to file that off and I had a piece like that so big if I needed it. If I needed a small piece just for -- just for a, uh, uh, like a 79:00-- a bracelet --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: -- I would, I would, I would finally bend it, see how it fit. If it fit good, I'd take the two ends and I would weld it together and then -- and then I would, uh... And, and I had -- I had the grinders there so I didn't have to do it with a file.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: The inside I had to do with a file, but the outside I could do on a wheel. And -- and so I had a lot of customers. Lots and lots of customers. They all wanted it. And then --

SADY SULLIVAN: That's so neat. What a great idea.

MILTON WURTZEL: And -- oh. Oh, it's beautiful. It's beautiful. And then when you polish it up -- stainless steel, you know! That's stainless steel. That's the way it looked, like that.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

MILTON WURTZEL: After you cleaned it up.

SADY SULLIVAN: And made by the hammerhead crane.

MILTON WURTZEL: Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: That's so beautiful.

MILTON WURTZEL: Yeah. But don't tell the hammerhead. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

MILTON WURTZEL: They'll tell me, "What were you doing? You're sup -- you're supposed to be working on, on -- on the fence."

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

MILTON WURTZEL: I said, "Which fence were you -- want me to work on?"

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

MILTON WURTZEL: Oh, my days were such beautiful days of learning and doing.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And, uh, I enjoyed every minute I worked in the Navy Yard. I had some bad times in the Navy Yard. Uh, we had ships that came in, uh, that hit a mine or was torpedoed.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And they just were able to make it and they get here and , uh, English, French, all kinds of ships we had like that, you know. So I, I -- I was working. Or they put me out on the field first, as soon as I got through my schooling. They put me on the field, like being a helper for a, a riveter. Like a -- I -- I would -- I would throw him the rivet, the hot rivet, and then -- and he would put it into the main part of the ve -- of the -- of the ship.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: The ship is on -- on the building ways. They're putting a -- put a new plate in. The holes were already drilled there that matched up. And -- 81:00and, uh, once you put the first rivet in, the others go, "Zoop," right down the line very fast because they're all lined up. And, uh, one, one guy working in the back of that plate there, so he has another tool that makes sure that when it goes through, that -- that -- they, they hammer -- both sides are hammered with a power hammer. And -- and -- and, you know, when -- when -- when you get it -- when it's red hot. They, they're red hot. Red hot. And when you throw it to a guy, it's red hot, and when he throws it to the other guy, he puts it into the hole and the other guy is inside waiting for it to come in with his tool and the two tools are like round tools, like that there, that they -- him them on this side, the other guy on the side, and you put it together like that there, and then both of them going, "Brrr," you know. They're compressing --

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

MILTON WURTZEL: -- the, the rivet so it becomes watertight.

SADY SULLIVAN: And do they have to be totally synchronized in that action when they're -- both sides?

MILTON WURTZEL: No. They -- when -- when you get a riveter, they know what they're doing.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: They've had their experience ready. They know.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And -- and the both sides -- well, he'll -- he'll see -- he'll see it coming through. The -- this guy puts it through first.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: He puts it through until he gets to that certain part where he has to allow for compression.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: But by that time, the guy inside has a piece there also like that.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And he has enough there for compression.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Then when he goes -- the, the guy on the outside goes, "Brrp," the guy knows he's ready for him.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: So -- and, and you know, it's steel. You hear everything. And -- and the other guy gives him, the "Plpp," he's ready.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

MILTON WURTZEL: So, so they both get together, like I said, and then you hear, "Brrr," heh, and the rivet gets locked in.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

MILTON WURTZEL: And it's locked in for good.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Really good. I mean, there -- there's such interesting things 83:00that -- that happen, you know.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah. And so you -- your first job there was to -- was to pass along the hot rivet?

MILTON WURTZEL: My first -- my first job was to stay up at the hotpot where the rivets were.

SADY SULLIVAN: What was that? What kept it hot?

MILTON WURTZEL: Well, it was -- it was gas fired.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: It was gas fired and, uh, and it had certain coals in there that got red hot. The coals got red hot and the rivets were laying right on -- on top of those coals and they were getting red hot. Every time they blew a little air into it, that they -- you could see how red hot the rivet was.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And so you just kept feeding the guy rivets.

SADY SULLIVAN: How did you pick them up?

MILTON WURTZEL: Tongs.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Steel tongs.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And some -- some tongs were short. If you couldn't -- some of them -- some of them couldn't stand the heat, so they had a long tong, standing further away from the thing, you know. And some guys could stand it, they had a short tong. Short tongs were easier to handle.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: But then -- then you -- your hands used to burn a lot, you know.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: So -- so what, whatever I had to do, I did. And like I say, everything was an experience.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm. Did people -- did you ever get burnt on...?

MILTON WURTZEL: Did I ever get burnt? No. The -- the -- the one bad thing I had one time was I -- I was telling you that when these ships came in from -- from... French ships, uh, English ships, they were dirty ships. They -- those, those people were dirty people.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Especially the French ships. They didn't really have bathrooms -- they didn't have toilets. You know, they would squat when they had to go to the bathroom.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And, uh, I didn't know how anybody ever lived that way. How could you live without sitting down on a toilet bowl?

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow. I can't believe they didn't put toilets on their ships.

MILTON WURTZEL: They -- well, some ships had -- not the French.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: The -- that -- that was the French way of living.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: They lived like -- even their homes were like that there.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Even -- even when you -- even if you go to France, you'll -- you'll see public bathrooms --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: -- outside in the street. Well, all, all there is is a couple of things like that shielding it from everybody that's there. You -- you walk in and, and there's all these places, like maybe four places where you can go. And -- and there -- and there is -- there are footprints like where you put your feet so you won't slide.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And you go do what you have to do. But they're dirty. I, I can't stand them.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: 'Cause we used to have some on our ship. They used to come... They -- they were on because they were passengers and we were bringing them somewhere and they used our bathrooms. And they messed them up something awful 86:00because they didn't know how to sit down on a toilet.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

MILTON WURTZEL: They -- they -- they did that and -- and they -- and they like... They were not good aimers, that's all. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

MILTON WURTZEL: Unbelievable.

SADY SULLIVAN: That's funny. So what would happen when the ships came in for repair?

MILTON WURTZEL: So, so... No, there was -- the ships came in for... Oh.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: What happened to me one time was an English ship came in and, uh, I had to go down into the hold and there was no light. I never did it again. I never did that again afterwards. I made sure I had my flashlight. And -- because I thought I knew the hold, you know. But I didn't really know it. I did know it but I didn't know that someone had thrown a -- a plank down there with na -- nails sticking up like that and I stepped on that. Went right through my foot.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh. Ouch.

MILTON WURTZEL: I'm, I'm lucky -- I'm lucky I didn't get blood poisoning and I'm lucky I didn't have to have my leg taken off.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm. What did you do?

MILTON WURTZEL: I went right away to sick bay.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: They cleaned it and cauterized it right away.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And I was out of work a whole week because I couldn't stand.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And then after that I couldn't stand. So I guess -- I -- I'm always having trouble with my feet. There's something wrong with me.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

MILTON WURTZEL: Anyway... But like I say, the rest of me, uh, is fine.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Everything is good. If I'm sitting like this here --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: -- uh, uh, and when I don't have the pain --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: -- everything is fine.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: But pain is a -- is a terrible thing to have.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Terrible.

SADY SULLIVAN: Where was sick bay?

MILTON WURTZEL: Sick bay?

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Sick, sick bay was, uh -- every building had a sick bay.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, there was different ones. Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Every building had a sick bay in -- in it. Uh, there were like 88:00-- well, I said building four. We -- we had, uh, about six buildings.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: That were lined up in different places, you know.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: I think we had two or three, in, in -- Like in one area they had two and another area different -- but they -- they were all for different things, some of those. Now -- but for the ship fitting, we had two -- two large, uh, buildings and outside the buildings they had steel stuck upside, you know, piled up. All kinds of steel. The stringers. Uh, the -- the decks pl -- everything like that. Everything was there.

SADY SULLIVAN: Do you know -- did you -- we've been trying to figure out... There's a -- there's an internal railway in the Navy Yard.

MILTON WURTZEL: There's a what?

SADY SULLIVAN: There's an internal railway. Um, like it doesn't -- it's just within the Navy Yard. It doesn't connect to anywhere else. Do you know if that's... Did you ever see stuff being moved on -- on a railway?

MILTON WURTZEL: I, I -- I don't remember, but -- but evidently there must have been.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: There must have been, because -- because there, there were... There were trucks and that -- for transporting stuff. But when it came -- when it came to this -- to these big sheets like -- like, know where we're sitting here, a sheet like from -- as -- as wide as the curtain is and -- and -- and from, from that chair to the end of the curtain was a sheet.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: That had to be put on in that size.

SADY SULLIVAN: So wow. That's like -- I don't know, fifteen feet or more.

MILTON WURTZEL: Uh... I don't know if it's fifteen feet. Maybe -- maybe -- maybe it's ten feet, or maybe at the most twelve. I don't think it's fifteen.

SADY SULLIVAN: Okay.

MILTON WURTZEL: Uh, you want to -- you want a tape measure? You want to measure it?

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter] Nope. That's a good estimate. [laughter]

MILTON WURTZEL: [laughter] Because, uh, I -- I used to be very good. I -- I 90:00think I'm still good, but I don't know how good I am anymore.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: But, uh, it was real -- really great. Uh, the -- the -- the thing I liked the most was reading blueprint.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

MILTON WURTZEL: I enjoyed that tremendously. And then as soon as I came upon something that I didn't understand, my hand was up to find out what it was, you know.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Because the only way you find out is if you ask.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: If you don't ask, and you sit there like a D-U-M-M-Y, you're never going to know.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: So I said, "So, call me dummy." I said, "No, don't call me dummy. Call me smarty," because I asked about it, you see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And it's -- it's great. Every -- every -- everything that you didn't now and you found out, you know, and you never forget it. Once you know it, you never forget it. I forget it because of my age.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: I have a -- a temporary -- a temporary loss of memory. I --

SADY SULLIVAN: I would -- I would say hardly. Uh, you're -- you remember such wonderful detail. This is...

MILTON WURTZEL: Yeah. Uh, I can -- I can... Isn't that funny? That's -- uh, and I -- and I say to myself, "How come? How come I remember all those things? How come I remember twenty years back and thirty years back the things that happened?" I see pictures of people that I'm talking about right in front of me now.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Right in front of me now I see them. I know even the clothes they're wearing.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Uh, it's that clear.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: That clear. But -- but this other thing... It just -- this only happened recently.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: I -- I would, uh, venture to say maybe it was coming on. So every -- every once in a while I used to get a thing like that. I -- I couldn't remember.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: So I had, I had a cousin of mine that says, "Uh-oh. Getting Alzheimer's already, huh?"

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

MILTON WURTZEL: [laughter] I used to -- I used to -- I used to tell him... I said, "Jordan," and I -- as a matter of fact, I spoke to them today. She, the wife, I don't know how she ever married him. He's -- he's a nice guy but he doesn't give a damn about how anybody feels when he tells them anything.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

MILTON WURTZEL: He -- he's insulting like anything.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

MILTON WURTZEL: And she is the direct opposite of him. She is a beautiful, beautiful woman. Uh, I know her -- I've known her since she was a girl, before she got married. I met her -- I met her when I met -- met my wife. Uh, the same ages, you know.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And -- and she's a beautiful... She calls me more often now to find out how -- how I'm doing since Shirley passed away than people who should call me. "How am I doing?" you know.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: So you know what happens? You lose respect for those that don't care, and the ones that do care, you -- you really anchor up on them. I have -- 93:00my little great -- my granddaughter -- not my great-granddaughter... My -- my son's -- my son's daughter by first marriage... He was married twice. He's married now the second time. He had a girl -- Jason is my son's son.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And his sister is the one that lives in Jersey.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: You know about Kim?

SADY SULLIVAN: No, I haven't met Kim.

MILTON WURTZEL: Did he ever mention Kim?

SADY SULLIVAN: Uh-uh.

MILTON WURTZEL: No? Kim is in Jersey and -- and my dear wife loved Kim so much.

[Interview Interrupted.]

MILTON WURTZEL: I'm not getting anywhere with our story here, so.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

MILTON WURTZEL: [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: Well, let's -- let's -- I'll --

MILTON WURTZEL: Well, tell me what --

SADY SULLIVAN: I have more Navy Yard questions, but I'd also like to ask how -- how did you meet your wife?

MILTON WURTZEL: How'd I meet my wife?

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Oh. But that's not part of the story? You want -- or you want me 94:00tell it?

SADY SULLIVAN: I'm just curious because we were talking about her.

MILTON WURTZEL: Oh, you're curious. Okay. Ahem, I lived on Kosciuszko Street--

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: -- at the time. And, uh, you know that area?

SADY SULLIVAN: I do.

MILTON WURTZEL: You know where Tompkins Park is?

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: You know all that?

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Anyway -- and you know where Myrtle Avenue is?

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Uh, Myrtle Avenue. Uh, did you know where -- where the, uh, L that carried the -- the train to the last stop, uh, uh, before you picked up the BMT?

SADY SULLIVAN: There used to be that -- that elevated train on Myrtle?

MILTON WURTZEL: Yeah, yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And that stopped at, uh... That's -- that was the last stop for the train and, uh, and then you had to walk up and you went -- you got on the on -- the Brighton line, the BMT, Brighton line.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And that's -- that's about when I met my wife.

SADY SULLIVAN: At that subway stop?

MILTON WURTZEL: At -- no, no. I didn't meet her there.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: But about that time is when I had to use that in order to see her. I -- I met her -- I met her because I had, uh, a good friend and, uh... Had a good friend but then he became a bad friend. Uh, one day he stopped me in the street and he says, uh... I says, "Where you going?" He says, "Oh, I'm -- I'm going to a party." I said, "What kind of party?" He said, "Graduation party." I said, "Oh, do I know the, the person?" He says, "No, you don't know her, but you want to come along? I'll take you." "Okay, okay. When you going?" He said, "Be ready in a couple of hours." Of course I'm -- you know, have to take the train 96:00to go. He didn't -- he didn't have a car or anything like that. It was -- we were young. Very young. And, uh -- and so couple of hours later, I got dressed up, you know, a little nicer, you know, than -- than work clothes, which I almost all the time wear that I shouldn't mess up my good clothes, and as a result, I got more good clothes than I have bad clothes, you know.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

MILTON WURTZEL: [laughter] Anyway, um, I said, "Okay." So anyway, make a long story short, we go to the party and the party is, uh... The party is over a bakery and this is where this girl lived. Where my wife lived. She -- her parents lived on the second floor. Uh, her grandma owned the bakery. Her two uncles, who were the sons of the grandma, ran the bakery and she had a job there 97:00as -- as a, as, uh, you know, selling, uh -- as a, as a -- what do you call it?

SADY SULLIVAN: Just a -- a job, you know. She was experienced. You know, she was -- she sold cake, bread, cookies, milk, stuff like that, you know, and she was very good at it. She used to wrap up -- put the cake in the box and wrap it up, bup, bup, bup, bing, you know. Very -- very fast. Anyway, uh, getting back to meeting her. Uh, he took me to this bakery and the party was upstairs. And we went upstairs and he introduced me to the girl. Introduced me to Shirley. You -- did you see a picture of her?

MILTON WURTZEL: Uh-uh.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, I did, on the, um --

MILTON WURTZEL: Look along here.

SADY SULLIVAN: Okay. And [inaudible].

MILTON WURTZEL: There's one -- just a picture of a girl's face.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, I was looking at this.

MILTON WURTZEL: Oh, well, the -- that's a small one. While you're standing there, take a look.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, I see.

MILTON WURTZEL: Just about where you are.

SADY SULLIVAN: Right here.

MILTON WURTZEL: Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah. Oh. Is that -- is that how old she was when you guys met?

MILTON WURTZEL: That's when I met. Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

MILTON WURTZEL: That's when I met her. She was a sweetheart.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Best thing that ever happened to me. Anyway, they were having a graduation party. They just graduated, uh, uh, high school.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And, uh, I had a big kick out of it because they lived upstairs in a railroad flat. You know, all the rooms are one -- one thing, you know.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And, uh, she, um... She -- she, uh, was in the biggest room of the house, which was the front room that faced the street. And she had -- oh, she must have had about fifteen people there, and I'll never forget her. She 99:00wore a dress. She wore a brown dress, cocoa brown dress with tassels hanging diagonally like -- and I said to myself, "What is she, a gypsy?" You know, couldn't make out what... And just beautiful. And I looked at her. I said, "Wow, that's beauty personified." So, uh, my friend, whose name was Leo, uh, he says, uh, "She's already taken." I said "By who? You?" He said, "No, not quite." I said, "So what's the story?" I said, "She's, uh, a very pretty girl. If she's a nice girl, she's a very, very pretty girl." And, uh, so he introduces me to her 100:00and, uh, "Pleased to meet you," and all that, you know. Had a dance with her in there, a little dance. And, uh, by the end of the evening, I asked her, "Would you mind if I came here to see you again?" She said, "No." I says, "You sure?" She says, "Yes." I said -- I said, "You know, I come from a long distance. I come from Stuyvesant Heights."

SADY SULLIVAN: And what neighborhood was -- was she living in?

MILTON WURTZEL: She lived in Brighton.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, okay.

MILTON WURTZEL: So therefore, I had, uh... And I used to walk from my -- my house on Kosciuszko Street along -- along Sum -- along... Yes, Sumner -- Tompkin -- no, was it Tompkins or Sumner? I think it was Sumner Avenue where the trolley ran. The bus or -- or trolley ran there.

SADY SULLIVAN: Um, I'm not sure.

MILTON WURTZEL: No? Well, I know Tompkins Avenue had a trolley.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: It must have been Tomp -- Tompkin Ave. I would walk along Tompkins Avenue and -- and I would go, uh, I would go east and I'd go to the -- to the elevator where -- where the, uh, elevator stopped, the last stop there, and you get the Brighton line. Right?

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And so I did that and then I got off at King's Highway and I -- I walked to Coney Island Avenue and then I walked a few blocks up to Avenue S where the bakery was.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And she was very nice and nice to meet her and I sat in the bakery while she took care of customers and all that. And she said, "Would you like to have a cookie or something?" I said, "Yes, I would." So she brought me out a, uh -- one of those beautiful, uh, nice sugar cookies. They're -- they're, uh -- a black and white.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Black and white icing, you know.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And she said, "Would you like something to drink?" I says, "What do you got?" She says, "Well, I can get you some -- some milk if you want. We have milk here. We sell milk." I said, "That'd be all right." So from that time on, I started seeing her. And before you knew it, I was really keeping company with her. And, uh -- and this guy Leo, he was after her. There was another guy who made that picture that you see.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

MILTON WURTZEL: He -- he was a -- a -- a photographer.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: He was after her. And she had anoth -- another guy was after her. And they were doing anything they could to get me out of there.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Anything they could. But no, buddy. You're not getting me out. 103:00Not getting me out because I got to like this girl very much because I kept talking to her. She was a very bright girl. Very -- very bright. My only one inconsideration was that I stopped her from going to college.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

MILTON WURTZEL: That was my one big mistake.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And I think -- I think maybe all through her years, she maybe felt that.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

MILTON WURTZEL: But she was a good wife, a good mother, and a beautiful lady. And, and -- and you wouldn't believe it. And I told no one what I'm telling you now. That last night, I couldn't fall asleep because I was thinking about her, and I actually cried.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: I -- I cried because I felt... When she was in -- in hospice here, and, and we had someone here 24/7, you know, watching her, and she didn't 104:00-- she didn't talk much. She got thin. She wasted away. And, uh, she hardly said anything. And here my two granddaughters were pregnant. And then one say Erica had her baby and the baby wasn't, ahem, more than two days out of the hospital, she brought the baby here for grandma and grandma sat up in her bed and I see it plain as day. Sat up in her bed with a beautiful smile and Erica handed her the baby and she was like in heaven. Like in heaven. Ahem. That was -- that was, uh, a won -- a wonderful thing in my lifetime that I saw. But I was thinking of that. And then I said to myself, "Why did she have to go so fast?" And there are 105:00people that have the same thing she had that are still walking around. She wasn't handled right.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

MILTON WURTZEL: So I -- I felt very bad and -- and I -- I -- I didn't cry at her burial, but last night I couldn't sleep. I -- I started to cry.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: I didn't cry loudly, you know. I -- I really couldn't fall asleep and, and I cried and I said, "What -- what didn't I do to make you happy? What, what did I do to make you unhappy?" And, and, uh, of course I got a feeling that she knew what she had and knew that she was going to go, because I -- I'll tell you why. I have a little room there has book -- has books in it. All my books were put in place. All my -- all my painting books were book -- 106:00painting, fishing books put together, other books put together. My -- my -- my -- my Hebrew books put together. Everything put together and I said, "Who the heck would have done that?" But I had a girl here, I thought maybe it was her. But no, she didn't do that. Because -- I know she didn't do that because when I went to a certain drawer that Shirley put her lipsticks and stuff like that, and her little valuables, stuff she liked, everything is so neatly done, laid -- laid together. All, all so neat. I -- I couldn't believe it. I said, "Now I know who did it and now I did why she did it, because she knew she was going to go."

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And then what got me was -- what got me was she had a girl sitting next to her and she asked the girl to call me in. And so I came in and 107:00she looked at me and kept looking at me. And I said, "What can I do for you, hon?" She says, "Milt, I want you to know I love you." And when she told me that, I broke up. I couldn't stand it anymore. And I miss her dearly. I don't think anybody'll ever take her place, no matter... If I meet somebody that wants to take care of me... Um, I'm so well on my way to -- to meeting the guy upstairs. I mean, I -- I keep thinking about that. And -- and, uh, like I had this girl who was taking care of me, this Russian girl. I -- I could have -- the way she acted, the way she treated me, I could have fallen in love with her, and I think maybe I did. But I couldn't take her away from what she was -- she was -- she was a pediatrician from her -- from where she came from, Georgia.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And she was -- she had graduated a pediatrician. She couldn't prac -- she could practice there, and -- and --and I don't know what she's looking for, but she came to this country. She thought the streets -- like -- like our forefathers thought the streets were lined with gold. They're not lined with gold. They're lined with a lot of worries and you're going to worry about that before you find the gold. And so -- so she -- she looked at me and she said, "Milt, I love you." But prior to that, she's been so quiet. Even before she was in hospice, we used to sit on the couch here, look out the window. I used to play the piano. I would play a medley of five or six so -- songs. Ever since I learned to play the -- the piano -- and I'm all self-taught. And, uh, I 109:00-- I never, ever heard her say, "Oh, that sounded pretty good," or "You have to do this," because originally, she was taking piano lessons when she was younger.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: A youngster. When I first -- at the time I met her. And, uh, I thought I was doing pretty good, so I thought I wanted a little recognition, and I didn't get that from her. I don't know why, but I didn't get it from her. The one day I played that medley and she said, "Milt, that was very nice." First time since I know her that she said that and she made me feel good that way. And -- but so she's not here now and, and I missed her and I couldn't believe that I was crying last night.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Couldn't believe it. But I did. She was a wonderful lady. Wonderful to my grandchildren, to my -- all my children. She -- we sold our 110:00house and we had a place in Florida.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: So we sold it because she said, "Milt, you -- you -- you drive this all the time." She says, "This is 1.750 -- 1,517 miles one way. So -- so that's, uh, over 3,000 miles back and forth, you do back and forth, and you never complain or anything that you don't want to do it." She says, "I think you have to stop doing that. Uh, you're getting too old to really... Not -- not old old, but you're getting too old. You're you know... You're -- things change, your bodies changes. You maybe won't be able to do it, so why don't you try taking it easy a little bit?" So ever since that time, you know, I notice that 111:00whatever I find in the house that she had her hands on became in, in good shape.

SADY SULLIVAN: Hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Everything packed nice in a little bundle. Uh... And -- and, uh, I said, "Now I know who did all my books and now I know who did the drawers and now I know who did this and who did that." She did it, but she never, ever told me she did that.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Maybe I was away too much from her, and so I bemoan the fact that I didn't give her enough of my time.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And -- but she never complained. So now I got her job and I got my job and I try the best I can to do it. But I never forget her.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: It -- it's a sad story. It's a sad story.

SADY SULLIVAN: You had so many years together.

MILTON WURTZEL: What, dear?

SADY SULLIVAN: You had so many years to know each other.

MILTON WURTZEL: Oh, yeah. Sixty-eight years of marriage. And we traveled a lot. We had a good life. We went different places. We enjoyed and, uh... But you see, she comes from a certain kind of stock. Her mother was a very stern, rigid kind of person. Her father was an angel without the wings. Unbelievable. The couple together made up for, for -- for a nice person like her. Her sister was a nice person, too, and, uh -- and her -- her brother was -- was an ace. He ended up -- he was a pharmacist and he had his own business and he smoked and the smoking got him.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

MILTON WURTZEL: And she smoked like -- like anything and the smoking got her.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Then the mother had problems. The father -- the father was the first one to go. I had them both living here and the father used to look out -- have -- have his hand up on top of the window like that there. Like, you know, on top -- halfway up.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And -- and -- and he would, uh... He would say, "What a beautiful place. You have the water and you have the country. Where do you find a place that is a country and the water at the same time? You're at the seashore and you -- and you have a country." I says, "I don't know, Dad." I says, "I -- I happen to like it very much and I think Shirley likes it very much, too." And -- and she did. She liked it very much. After a while, she said, you couldn't get her away from here. She said, "I could, I could never give this up." We had this house up for sale -- she and I had this house up for sale.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

MILTON WURTZEL: Only about a year ago -- oh, more than a year ago. It was -- it was before she passed away. Uh, it was a year and a half maybe, and, uh, we put the house up for sale because we wanted to get as much money as we could and maybe go live in assisted living or something, you know, you know.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And, uh, we had everybody here. We had the agents here and everything. The agents used to sit here and the customers used to come in. And they -- they liked it and they didn't say yes or no. But, uh, then -- and Shirley and I were looking at different, uh, uh condos, uh, these lots of homes. You know, like a hundred homes, you know. Buy -- get a house like that.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: So then I said to myself, "What would I do with my hobbies? Where would I put my hobbies?"

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: I don't care if my car stays out in the street, but where would I put my hobbies? I wouldn't have a place to hobby. I would fade away. And, uh, 115:00-- and she thought the same thing. So one day I said to her, "Shirley, you know what? I don't think we should sell this. I think we ought to keep it. I don't care for how long. We should keep it and enjoy it, because where are you going to get this anywhere else?"

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: "Where you going to get it? You're not going to get it."

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: She says, "You're right, Milt." So we walked over to the agent who was sitting there, and I forgot what her name was. And we said, uh, "We have something to ask you. Would you be very angry at us if we told you right now that we don't want to sell this house?" She says, "You made me happy."

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

MILTON WURTZEL: That's what the woman said to her.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

MILTON WURTZEL: I quote her. "You made me happy. I don't know how a nice couple like you, living in such a nice place you are, want to sell this for any money. 116:00You can't buy anything like this here."

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And -- and when they came in to sell the house, I was asking four hundred dollars -- four hundred -- -- $400,000 for it. And when she came over to me, she said, "You're just $400,000 off." I said, "What are you talking about?" She says, "We want to ask $840,000 for this house." I said, "You're kidding me." She said, "No, that's what we're going to ask for it." And look what she gave up. If she were to have sold this house, her percentage of -- of what she was going to get... Uh, she -- she would have made $800 on this, this deal and she was glad to give it up.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: She's -- that's wonderful.

SADY SULLIVAN: That's good.

MILTON WURTZEL: Right?

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Sady, I'm telling you, there are people and there are people. 117:00This has been bothering me like it is now.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And I think if I -- if I get to rub it in.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: It, it's right in here where I got the pain.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah. Do you want to -- do you want to walk around a bit or what --

MILTON WURTZEL: No, the walking won't help me.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

MILTON WURTZEL: Anyway. Let's talk business. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

MILTON WURTZEL: Now, look at what you're going to have to erase from here.

SADY SULLIVAN: I'll -- well, I won't erase, but I'll -- I'll cut it out and give it to you so that you can have for -- for you and for your family.

MILTON WURTZEL: Oh, that's wonderful.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: That's nice.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: I'd like to have that when I get lonely. I put the recorder on.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm. So should we -- should we go back to some -- some Navy Yard questions and then -- and then... ?

MILTON WURTZEL: Yeah. Let's go back to what you need.

SADY SULLIVAN: Okay. Um... Oh, I realized in the beginning I didn't ask where -- where did your parents come from?

MILTON WURTZEL: My -- my parents, ahem, came from a smattering of -- of different countries. They came at the time when everything was in, in, in -- in trouble there. They had Austria and, uh -- and, uh, all the little countries that -- that bordered each other. So I would never know if he came from Poland or -- or if he came from Russia--

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: --because it was right in the mix.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: But my father and mother both, they -- they lived in the same, uh -- they lived in a -- a little -- what they called a shtetl, city.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And -- and the city, uh, the, th name of the city was, uh, uh, Chemish. Chemish. C-H-E-M-I-S-H. Chemish is the way I would -- I would, uh, uh, 119:00I would, uh, write it down.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: I would spell it. See, I was looking for the way to spell it and I said I would write it down --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: -- and then spell it came out as -- that's the word I wanted to speak to. So I would say -- I -- that's what happens to me. The, the words I want come eventually.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And, um, they were born in -- that -- they -- they were living there at the time, uh, when -- they lived a regular farm life, like. They used to live on a farm, like. There's a lot of stories you could tell from my father.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: My father was a fisherman from the day he was born. One fisherman, and his father was the same thing. Him and his father were partners. My -- my father was a bricklayer. They made their own bricks. They had the soil 120:00there that was red soil.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And that -- and they used to take it and put it in forms and let it harden, made bricks. And so they became bricklayers and they did brick work, laid, like making walls and stuff like that. Fireplaces, you know, in the old country.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And, uh, and when -- and my mother -- my mother and her mother were cooks. They were cooks that worked for royalty. They -- they worked in the, in castles and palaces and places like that. Not in a -- not in a store or bakery. They were cooking -- they were cooking that -- that this whole apartment wasn't as big as the kitchens that were in there, you know.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And my mother was the best cook in the world, without a recipe. Didn't have one recipe that she ever read in her life to make something, and yet 121:00she made the most delicious food and -- and everybody loved her food. Right up -- right up -- up to today, where my wife got to know how to make the, uh, tuna pancakes that my mother made, because every time somebody had a party or something, Shirley would make up a batch of, of tuna pancakes --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: -- and they were waiting in line for it.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yum.

MILTON WURTZEL: And they devour -- they devoured them, you know.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: That's how well she made them. And, uh, my mother... My mother could bake anything. Anything you said you would like. Apple pie, berry pie. You name it, uh, you got it. She -- they were excellent, excellent cooks and bakers 122:00without recipes. I -- I could never figure it out. It was all up in here.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And -- and I'm -- and I got angry at her one day. I said, "Mom, I go out and I catch fish. I catch whiting." They, they're an excellent eating fish and you only get them like -- well, now it's a little too late already. No, they're still around. But around Thanksgiving through Christmas, through New Year's, I used to go to the Steeplechase Pier on Coney Island.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: You know that?

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: That's Brooklyn.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Right? And my father and I, in the coldest nights, would go up on the pier and at that time they had a little hut right in the middle of the pier that -- that served coffee and stuff like that in the, in the wintertime, so we were able to get warmed up. And we used to take a potato sack. A potato 123:00sack is burlap.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And we -- we, uh, we fished for whiting and ling. That was the name of the two fish that were there. The whiting were -- and anywhere from this size to this size.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And the meat was white meat. Do you ever eat codfish?

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Know -- you know how codfish tastes?

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: That's how whiting tastes. Just like that. White. And when -- and when you have them, when you cook them -- when you cook them -- actually cook them, the meat falls away from the bone.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: That's how it was.

SADY SULLIVAN: How did you use the -- how did -- what was the burlap potato sack for? How -- is that how you caught them?

MILTON WURTZEL: The potato sack. No. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

MILTON WURTZEL: The potato sack was for filling up the bag with whiting.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh! That much?

MILTON WURTZEL: Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow.

MILTON WURTZEL: We used to go home with uh, anyway with a half a bag.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow.

MILTON WURTZEL: We went home with -- with maybe fifty to a hundred fish.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow.

MILTON WURTZEL: And -- and we used them. We didn't waste them.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And this is what I was going to tell you about my mother, that I -- I feel so mad that I, I didn't pay more attention to that.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: She made -- out of the whiting, she made pickled whiting.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Pickled whiting that was so delicious I could have eaten a jar like that, you know. It was cooked and it was pickled, but I didn't get her pickling recipe.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

MILTON WURTZEL: And -- and that's -- that's what bothered me.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah, that sounds delicious.

MILTON WURTZEL: And I've tried -- every time I see a book, a cookbook, I turn to pickling and see what they say about pickling fish. Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: I came close one time, but really not. I love that fish.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: In any shape, form, or manner. I -- if I go to the store sometimes, I see they're -- they're selling whiting, smoked whiting, so I got to 125:00buy it because it's whiting, not because it's smoked, and it's delicious, because it peels away. You take chunks of meat off.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And you're left to the bone. Like you ever see the cat that walks around with just the bone?

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

MILTON WURTZEL: The, the skeleton?

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

MILTON WURTZEL: That's -- that's what comes away. It comes away...

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Comes away... I got it here.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, you got it?

MILTON WURTZEL: It says...

TELEPHONE: Call from Maura Zilkin [phonetic]

MILTON WURTZEL: Kenny, my son.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, do you want me to stop the recorder?

MILTON WURTZEL: Excuse me. No, I'll get it.

SADY SULLIVAN: I'll stop it.

[Interview Interrupted.]

SADY SULLIVAN: Let me just make sure it's going. Oh, yeah. Didn't you want some iced tea? There's the iced tea.

MILTON WURTZEL: How long -- how long can you stay here, Sady?

SADY SULLIVAN: Well, I don't want to take up too much of your time. We've -- we've -- we've filled up one of the discs. This has been great. A really, really 126:00great interview. I realize we didn't do the formal introduction that, um, that I usually start, so I'll just do that now for this one.

MILTON WURTZEL: Okay.

SADY SULLIVAN: Um, so usually I say the date. February 12, 2009, and I'm Sady Sullivan with the Brooklyn Historical Society and this interview is for the Brooklyn Navy Yard Oral History Project, and I am here today with Mr. Milton Wurtzel. And so if you would -- we've already been talking, [laughter] wonderful stories and really great descriptions, and you're so good at describing, um, really good details of things. But would you just introduce yourself to the recording as if this was the beginning? [laughter]

MILTON WURTZEL: Oh, certainly. Yes. My name is Milton Wurtzel. I'm very happy to give this information to, uh, a wonderful source and, uh, that it will have some kind of, uh, uh, uh, wonderful, uh, uh, uh, where --

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, it's good. [laughter]

MILTON WURTZEL: Anyway, uh, this young lady who is -- who is keep -- who is making this, uh, uh, research going is doing a beautiful job and I think for poster -- posterity, it will be beneficial. Thank you so much.

SADY SULLIVAN: Thank you. Um, so I have some -- some Navy Yard questions. Maybe we can -- we can go through some of these specific ones.

MILTON WURTZEL: Navy questions?

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah. Navy Yard -- Brooklyn Navy Yard questions.

MILTON WURTZEL: Mm.

SADY SULLIVAN: Um, do you remember... Did you have -- you -- you -- you told me that you were -- the building number was building number four. That's where you were mostly working. Was there a shop number or a union number?

MILTON WURTZEL: The shop -- the building four--

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: --anything that pertained to certain building, they said building four.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: All right. So whether -- whether it was building a tank or a -- or a -- or an assault boat or a, uh, great big battleship like the Missouri was, 880 feet long is the size of that ship.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Was the size of that ship. And such beautiful work. Lots of -- lots of wonderful work was being done in the Navy Yard.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: They should never, ever do anything to decrease the value of -- of a Navy Yard.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: A Navy Yard is our means of defense and they should never hurt it.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm, Mm-hm. Did you -- before you started working there, um, as -- as a kid growing up in Brooklyn, did you know about the Navy Yard?

MILTON WURTZEL: I knew about the Navy Yard. Knew about the Navy Yard when I was a little kid.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Before I ever got into the Navy Yard --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: -- my friends and I, we used to travel around Sands Street there, and some, some of the shops, we... When we were younger, we were inter -- interested in certain things. Like we were -- we were BB gun players.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

MILTON WURTZEL: We loved BB guns. And, um, we would... There was an -- uh, uh, an armory there. An armed store. An armory or something similar to that that sold all kinds of rifles and guns and stuff like that. And, um, my cousin and I 130:00-- he was interested in a, in, uh, a BB gun and he knew more about the Navy Yard -- I mean, not the Navy Yard itself, per se, but, but the area.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Because they had, uh, business and things like that around -- near -- near that area. An -- anyway, uh, I knew the Navy Yard a long time before I -- I really got into it. There were times... There were times before the war that I tried to get a job there, because I knew people that were working there and I wanted to get a job there, but, but I didn't know how to read blueprints and I, I didn't know anything -- uh, uh, of that nature.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And so I couldn't lie. They would find me out and throw me out 131:00right away. I'd be embarrassed.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: So I -- I didn't go for it. And I tried that. One time I tried it someplace. And I don't remember exactly where that I told them that I did -- I did that kind of work and I didn't do that kind of work.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And when they put me to the task, they said, "Why'd you lie to me?"

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

MILTON WURTZEL: I was embarrassed, you know.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

MILTON WURTZEL: [laughter] I said, "I'm sorry I lied to you, but I need the job." He said, "Well, I haven't got any job for you now, but come around some -- next year." Heh. One way of getting rid of me.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

MILTON WURTZEL: So anyway, I knew about the Navy Yard. And --

SADY SULLIVAN: What was Sands Street like? What was Sands Street like with the businesses? I know that there was like restaurants and bars and--

MILTON WURTZEL: There was. There were a few, um, shops there that were clothing stores.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Um. Sailors used to go there to get -- make their, uh, their tailor-mades.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: That's what they were called, tailor-mades.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And, uh, they would get these sharp, ahem, flaring pants and, uh, if you were skinny, it looked good on you. But if you were fat, forget it. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

MILTON WURTZEL: But, but we had a couple of fat guys that came aboard ship with those tailor-mades on, and we said, "You wasted your -- you wasted your money." [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

MILTON WURTZEL: Wow. You should have seen them. They -- they remind -- they reminded me -- like a walrus.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

MILTON WURTZEL: A walrus trying to get out of the water. [laughter] Ah! Funny.

SADY SULLIVAN: So who was hanging out? Was it mostly sailors that would hang out on Sands Street, or did people who worked in the Navy Yard hang out there?

MILTON WURTZEL: Mostly there were prostitutes.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And wherever there's a navy yard, you're going to find that.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: These berries are good.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Mm. What's the next question?

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter] Um, how did you commute to work? How did you commute to the Navy Yard? Were you living at Kosciuszko Street?

MILTON WURTZEL: Um... No. When I started working in the Navy Yard, we had moved. We had moved to, um -- deeper into Brighton. Where did we live? I just -- oh. 134:00When we -- when we moved, we moved, uh, to my wife's uncle's store area, which was on Avenue J and Flatbush Avenue. He had a pharmacy there and, uh, he had an apartment that was for rent at the time. At -- we're -- when I got out of the service, I lived in a Quonset hut.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Not a Quonset hut, actually. It was a Quo-- it was a, uh, a building that were basically built for returning veterans. They were apartments. Two layers, two sto -- And it's a big walk on it. And I don't know if -- they -- 135:00they didn't call it Quonsets, but everybody talked about it as a Quonset because where -- they made a lot of Quonsets, too, the half round things, you know, and people lived in there also. So they called everything a Quonset hut.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: But this was not a Quonset hut. This was a -- this was, uh, a two and a half room apartment that we had and -- and -- and...

SADY SULLIVAN: In Brooklyn?

MILTON WURTZEL: In, in Brooklyn.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And that's -- and that's where... That's where my daughter Virginia was born.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And, uh... Yeah, that was Brooklyn, that was right around Emmons Avenue.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

MILTON WURTZEL: I -- right off Emmons Avenue and before you knew it you were on Gerritson Beach.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: That was -- you know Gerritson Beach?

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: You know Brooklyn pretty good, right?

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Yeah. And I know it pretty good, too.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And I used to fish Gerritson Beach.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, neat.

MILTON WURTZEL: Yeah. Ahem, I have a lot of memories of Gerritson Beach and Brooklyn. A lot of memories. Good memories. Ahem.

SADY SULLIVAN: So that was -- so you were... When you first worked at the Navy Yard, you -- that was before you got married. Or was that after --

MILTON WURTZEL: No.

SADY SULLIVAN: Were you already married?

MILTON WURTZEL: When I worked at the Navy Yard, I was married.

SADY SULLIVAN: You were married. Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And the only times I worked there was during the war years.

SADY SULLIVAN: Right. So what years --

MILTON WURTZEL: But -- but I wanted to try -- I tried to get in and that's where they told me, "What are you doing?" [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: And that was before the war years?

MILTON WURTZEL: That was before the war.

SADY SULLIVAN: I see.

MILTON WURTZEL: And, uh, I -- I wanted to get into something that would be, uh, more safeguarding my way of life. Like if -- I would be able to get a pension.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Or I would be able to get, uh, some good things, you know, out of it. Uh, insurances and things like that. So that's what I was really after. I was really after to improve my way of life.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And, uh, I, I wasn't successful that way.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: But, uh, the opportunity arose when -- when the war started.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: That gave me, uh, the chance to get into the Navy Yard and I -- I said, "I'm getting in here no matter what." If I have to be out here every day, some day is going -- "Hey, you, what are you doing? Come on in." You know. And, uh, and, and once you show that you have the ability to handle tools and -- and that you understand, uh, uh, the building of all sorts like, you know, you could name things, uh, that, uh, that are relevant to industry and stuff like that, they take it, they teach you that. If they know you're teachable, they take you.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: You don't have to know it. But if you -- they know you're teachable -- if they think you're teachable, you're going to get the job --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: -- over somebody who doesn't know what they're talking about.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm

MILTON WURTZEL: So I always placed my faith in the person that interviewed me, that I would get a break.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: But then again, it always depended on the guy that was supposed to give you the break.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: You know, if he wasn't that kind of a guy, you were not going to get it, no matter what.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: You could know what you want. If he didn't want you to get it.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And that happened a lot and it had to do with being what you are.

SADY SULLIVAN: Do you mean in terms of ethnicity and race and...? Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: So...

SADY SULLIVAN: Who did -- how did that tend to be? Like who tended to be the supervisors and the people hiring?

MILTON WURTZEL: Who tended to be?

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah. What was their background usually?

MILTON WURTZEL: Irish.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm. And then -- and then who -- who tended to be applying at that time?

MILTON WURTZEL: Excuse me?

SADY SULLIVAN: And then what was the background of people who tended to be applying at that time?

MILTON WURTZEL: Oh, everybody was applying.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: But if -- and -- and many people didn't care to work for a place like that. They -- they had no feeling for that, so they wouldn't go there.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: So mostly, ahem -- mostly it was people who were hard workers --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: -- went to that. There was people that were immigrants from Poland, Russia, places like that. They're in this country. They're not making too good a living. Some of them are -- are -- are, uh, peddlers. They're peddling in a market, you know, a street market with a pushcart. Uh, they buy -- they buy, uh, a pushcart, a load of, uh, of grapefruit, and they try to sell it all in one day and so that day they made ten dollars profit. Whatever. That's -- that's what it was, you know. And these people were, were looking for something better all the time.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And, uh, they would -- they would find it.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm, mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Because they didn't give up.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And if you don't give up, you got to get in somehow.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: You know. You know. I'm, I'm just looking at you and you're -- you're reminding me so much -- maybe because I'm staring at you -- uh, of -- of, uh, my older sister. She's older than me by two years.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

MILTON WURTZEL: Yeah. And she's al -- she's alive and doing well. She had some hard times with the storm. She lives in Florida.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Wiped her out. Wiped her, uh -- her husband passed away two years ago and, uh, now she's by herself. Uh, but that's all right. She's a very bright girl. She manages. She has a lot of nice friends. Not a lot. Lot of them gone -- have gone also.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And, uh, hasn't been easy for her.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: This last storm that they had a year ago wiped out her apartment.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, my goodness.

MILTON WURTZEL: In Florida. Wiped it out. And, uh, she had to get out of there, and, uh, they stripped it down, they threw everything out. She was lucky enough to find an apartment in the house, ahem, right next to her house and -- that wasn't touched.

SADY SULLIVAN: Wow.

MILTON WURTZEL: Hers was. So she cried a lot. Everybody cried a lot for her. But okay. She did all right.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: She did all right.

SADY SULLIVAN: So she wasn't in the house when the storm came?

MILTON WURTZEL: I don't know whether she was in the house or not. I -- I can't answer that.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: But all -- all I know is that, uh, water came down from the roof. I mean -- I'm, I'm not just talking about dribbles. I'm talking about a deluge.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And every got -- everything got ruined and spoiled. There was nothing there that she could save.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And so she happened to have a good neighbor, a Spanish person who lived next door, and he said, "Don't worry. I'll be here. I'll help you. We'll move things. We'll get -- you'll be all right."

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Nice people. See, a good person is a good person.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And he -- and he comforted her and, uh, and through the year, him -- this Spanish man and his wife, they took care of her and they -- they looked out for things that she needed and stuff like that. He had a car. He was able to take her shopping. So, ahem. So, actually, there were people that had it worse than her.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And so she's probably grateful but she -- she's my sister, but, uh, what can I tell you? I -- I can't -- I can't brag about her too much. All I 143:00can tell you is that she was very smart, very selfish, and, uh -- but that's -- that's her personality. I mean, not everybody is like that. You can be very smart and very bright and very good and very -- and very, uh, comforting and -- and, uh, what can I tell you? I can only tell you the good things that you could be.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: But if you happen to be the other way around-- And it depends on who you're talking to. You know, I've lived a long time. I mean, I lived a long time. To be ninety years old, which I don't know how the heck I got to be ninety years old. I don't know how. You talk -- you talk about -- you talk about Brooklyn. Oh, no. I'm thinking about the Bronx now. I lived in the Bronx, too.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh. When did you live in the Bronx?

MILTON WURTZEL: Uh, I lived in the Bronx when I was, uh, a young kid.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: When I was a kid. Uh, well, I was born in Manhattan.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: From Manhattan... From Manhattan, we went to the Bronx.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: We lived in the Bronx a number of years, about maybe five years. Maybe up to -- I was five years old.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And I was a god damn it. I was -- I was really something. I -- I should have got spanked every day but my mother didn't spank me every day. Once a week was enough. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

MILTON WURTZEL: Uh, I lived in the Bronx... Do you know about the Bronx?

SADY SULLIVAN: I don't know the Bronx very well.

MILTON WURTZEL: Not at all, huh?

SADY SULLIVAN: No.

MILTON WURTZEL: I lived in the Bronx on 138th Street.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And -- and Saint Anne's -- Saint Anne's Avenue--

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: --if you've heard of the names. I don't know.

SADY SULLIVAN: Uh-uh.

MILTON WURTZEL: Anyway, we lived in an apartment house and I'll tell you the -- when I think of the things I did when I was a kid, I say to myself, "How did I live to be ninety years old?"

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

MILTON WURTZEL: How did I live to be ninety years old? I'll give you an instance. We lived on 138th Street in an apartment -- apartment house. Lived on -- on the, uh, fourth floor of the apartment house. The basement downstairs was a mortuary.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm.

MILTON WURTZEL: They took care of burying people from down there, you know.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: But it was down -- it wasn't upstairs. I guess if you wanted to go downstairs, they wanted to get you accustomed to being downstairs. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

MILTON WURTZEL: An, an -- anyway -- anyway, what I wanted to tell you was that sometimes my mother would leave the house, go shopping. I would come home, 146:00couldn't get into the house. So I said, "Mom, why don't you keep a key in your pocketbook. You know, keep it where you keep your change so you'll see it all the time, you'll know where it is." She says, "You know, Son, I -- I just forgot. What could I do?" I says, "Well, there's only one thing I could do for you." I climbed up the fire escape to the third floor. Our apartment faced -- the bedroom faced the backyard. There was one window that was to the left of the fire escape and then there was -- the fire escape had one window that you could get into the house. And my trick used to be... First, before I did anything else: the lock that's on the top of the thing, I used to be -- I -- oh.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: That's, uh, Jason.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: The lock is on -- on the middle on top and I used to work with it and I -- I have a certain motion with my hands. I go like this here. And little by little, I would open that lock.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

MILTON WURTZEL: Okay. But then there were times, uh, it was locked in so tight I couldn't get it, and still, nobody had the key but my mother. But she didn't have it either. It was in the house. So I took a look at the window on the outside to see if that was locked. So if it wasn't locked, I would climb over the rail three stories up. I get the shivers when I think about it.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

MILTON WURTZEL: Three stories up. And I'd rattle the window. If the window moved 148:00a little bit, I said, "Oh, I got a chance." And I would hold on one hand, one foot on the rail, and lean over and work the -- work the window and I'd get the window open.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh, my goodness.

MILTON WURTZEL: I'd get the window open. Now I got to get in the house. I got to get from where I am, with an angle like this here, into the house. I said, "You're going to go to your death." I said, "You can't do that. You can't do that." And before you knew it, I was in the house. I took a chance. I have learned since... As I got older -- as I got older and my legs started to shake when I thought about it, that I'm never going to do it again.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

MILTON WURTZEL: Not -- not -- not anything close to it even.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah.

MILTON WURTZEL: It was scary. My, ahem -- that same house, my mother had a -- a 149:00line outside from her window -- from that window, her line out to the, uh, a telegraph pole.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Which al -- almost anyplace you went in the Bronx, you had that. Everybody had lines. They did -- they did wet wash.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: They used to send it out and get it back wet. Not to dry it. And then they'd take it and put it on the line with a clothespin, eh. So my mother didn't have a clothesline. So I was elected to climb up that pole. [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: I always wondered how those got across, like how you'd string a clothesline up there. [laughter]

MILTON WURTZEL: Had to climb up those poles that had spikes on the side. Some of them.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And some of them were missing, not enough in there, and that's when you reached it and you said, "My god, if I take this and I slip, I'm downstairs quick." [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm, Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: So -- so I would, uh, I would take it very easy. Looks like I 150:00got a couple of lights out, one right up there. I'm sorry. Yeah, just one light went out there.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

MILTON WURTZEL: Uh, and, uh, I would, uh... I would look at it and not do it anymore. I promised I wasn't going to do it anymore. My mother says, "Do you want to get killed?" So I said, "No, I don't want to get killed, Mom. I promise you I won't do it anymore." I said, "But you have to have a key with you. [laughter] You don't have a key, I'm going to have to do it."

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: So I said, "Either that or you make another key and then give it to me so at least I have it. Or you make another key and you hide it someplace and then you'll be able to open it up."

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Now, she -- she was a good mother. She was a wonderful mother. My whole family -- my entire family -- entire family are wonderful people. 151:00They'll do for you like unbelievable. Take -- they'll take their shirt off and give it to you.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Which reminds me... In the Navy, when -- when I -- when my ship went into -- into the, uh -- what are those islands again? Uh, up in the Atlantic, there's, uh, uh... There are a couple of islands up there. I'll, uh, I'll have to get it in a few minutes, you know.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Uh, it's hard to remember. If it weren't just for that little thing, I, I could -- I could tell you everything.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: But because of that, I -- I try to substitute different names. Uh, you know... But I don't want to tell you an untruth, so I -- I try to tell you the truth and, uh... Why was I telling you about this in the first place here?

SADY SULLIVAN: The -- the islands? It's okay if you don't know the name.

MILTON WURTZEL: No?

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Uh, what was I saying? Do you remember? Or you don't remember. Or you --

SADY SULLIVAN: No, I do remember.

MILTON WURTZEL: Or is my sickness rubbing off on you?

SADY SULLIVAN: In the-- [laughter]

MILTON WURTZEL: [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: No, but I wasn't sure where you were going with the story. You were saying in the Navy that, um, that you were up in islands in the North Atlantic, maybe. I wasn't sure where.

MILTON WURTZEL: Yeah. Uh... Well, Azores.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh! Okay. Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Azores Islands.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: My ship came into Azores Islands and, and here I had an experience. I had a very dear friend lived in Brooklyn. Norman and his wife are very, very -- you all right, Jason? Want to put the light on?

JASON: I did.

MILTON WURTZEL: Okay.

JASON: I'll be back.

MILTON WURTZEL: Okay. Uh, hey, Jason?

JASON: Yes?

MILTON WURTZEL: Come here. Are you going to go out to buy food?

JASON: Yes, I am.

MILTON WURTZEL: Come over here. Don't you think you spent enough today? You won't be able to pay your --

JASON: No, I am going to spend lots of money on you because you're my grandfather and I love you.

MILTON WURTZEL: Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

JASON: Let it go down on the record.

MILTON WURTZEL: That's all -- [laughter] Listen. Your aunt told me that. You're already on record.

JASON: I see.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

MILTON WURTZEL: You're already on record. I was telling that to Erica today.

JASON: Here, look, I'm going to go. You just keep talking.

MILTON WURTZEL: No, don't go. Don't -- don't go. Don't go.

JASON: All right. If I don't go the food won't come--

MILTON WURTZEL: I have a small bill I want you to change for me.

JASON: I see. Okay.

MILTON WURTZEL: I got a wallet here. It's so fat and it's not all money really.

JASON: Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

MILTON WURTZEL: Not really all money. But if I get it out in this position, I'll be lucky.

JASON: All right.

MILTON WURTZEL: I'm going to --

JASON: You know, while I was on the phone with dad --

MILTON WURTZEL: Yeah?

JASON: -- I think Kim tried to call.

MILTON WURTZEL: Oh, yeah?

JASON: Yeah.

MILTON WURTZEL: Well, you -- you can call her back.

JASON: She probably got the machine.

MILTON WURTZEL: Jason, this is a mis -- a miserable thing.

JASON: Yeah, I see. I didn't ask you to do this. As a matter of fact, I asked you not to.

MILTON WURTZEL: I, I know you didn't. But I -- I didn't... Look, what can you expect from a guy who can't eat by himself?

JASON: I -- I don't know.

MILTON WURTZEL: [laughter]

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

MILTON WURTZEL: I'll tear the pocket. I don't care.

JASON: What -- what's going on? Maybe it's just stuck. Like hold on, hold on, hold on. All right.

MILTON WURTZEL: Wow, you're great.

JASON: Here.

MILTON WURTZEL: Okay. I don't know where you're going or what you're going to do.

JASON: I'm going to go get you Chinese food.

MILTON WURTZEL: Going to get Chinese food?

JASON: Yeah. Do you have a preference of something you'd like? Why don't you let me get it?

MILTON WURTZEL: No, I don't want you to get it. Here.

JASON: Thanks.

MILTON WURTZEL: All right?

JASON: Yes.

MILTON WURTZEL: And you know what you're going to get?

JASON: I know what I'm going to get for you.

MILTON WURTZEL: What are you going to get for me?

JASON: Uh, something with shrimp things and lobster sauce, right?

MILTON WURTZEL: [laughter] Shrimp and lobster sauce.

JASON: Right, yeah. Okay.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

MILTON WURTZEL: But it's, uh, shrimp -- shrimp and, uh, and, uh, what's that nutty nut that I like?

JASON: Cashew?

MILTON WURTZEL: Yeah, cashew shrimp, that's what it's called.

JASON: Cashew shrimp--

MILTON WURTZEL: Yeah. What would you like, dear?

JASON: --and lobster sauce. Like a veg -- like a vegetable lo mein or something?

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

JASON: Okay. All right.

MILTON WURTZEL: All right?

JASON: Did you want a soup?

MILTON WURTZEL: You got enough? You got enough money now?

JASON: I have enough money now. I do.

MILTON WURTZEL: Yeah, have soup, too. Have the whole thing.

JASON: What kind of soup do you want?

MILTON WURTZEL: Come on, it's dinner. It's suppertime.

JASON: What do you want, though?

MILTON WURTZEL: What I want?

JASON: Yeah. You want hot and sour or you want...?

MILTON WURTZEL: Hot and sour.

JASON: Okay.

MILTON WURTZEL: Hot and sour.

JASON: See you guys in a while.

MILTON WURTZEL: Okay. Hot and sour.

JASON: What did you eat when you were at the Navy Yard?

MILTON WURTZEL: What'd I eat when?

JASON: At the Navy Yard?

MILTON WURTZEL: Oh, I -- I can't tell you.

JASON: All right.

MILTON WURTZEL: It's not a nice word.

JASON: Oh, I see.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter]

JASON: No, did they have a commissary? What did they do? Did you bring your lunch?

MILTON WURTZEL: What -- oh, no. They had restaurants.

JASON: They did?

MILTON WURTZEL: Yeah.

JASON: All right. You'll tell me about it when I get back.

MILTON WURTZEL: No, uh, I, U didn't bring my lunch. But I was stupid.

JASON: No, this is what I've been wondering the whole time.

MILTON WURTZEL: I was so stu -- stupid that I ordered --

SADY SULLIVAN: I --

MILTON WURTZEL: -- I ordered tea with lemon --

JASON: Yeah.

MILTON WURTZEL: -- and I put milk in so the thing got sour.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter] I have definitely done that. That is gross.

MILTON WURTZEL: Yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: So that actually is one of -- one of the questions that we have. So you -- did you bring a lunch or where -- how did you -- what did you do for lunch at the Navy Yard?

MILTON WURTZEL: At the Navy Yard, um, ahem, it wasn't usual -- usual for me to bring lunch in the Navy Yard.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And, uh... I -- I did at times. At times bring lunch, but there was -- there was a cafeteria in each building.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: Had their own cook -- cooking and everything, you know. And, heh, that's where I bought the tea and put the, uh -- made it sour and then put -- put milk and then made it sour.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: I'll never forget that. That's -- you know, things that the -- that you re -- remember that have no value but it's something that stays in your mind and, and you can't get rid of it.

SADY SULLIVAN: Yeah, yeah.

MILTON WURTZEL: It's unbelievable.

SADY SULLIVAN: Was there other things? Like the sensory things. Like smells, um, or like textures of the Navy Yard that remind you of the Navy Yard?

MILTON WURTZEL: Ahem. Uh, I did -- I did -- when -- when -- when I went into the Navy --

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: -- I man -- I, I used to smell that because the cooking and the Navy Yard, everything was made in big kettles, you know. Well, I'll -- I'll tell you that there must have been 200 gallon kettles or something, you know, when 158:00they made it. They must have been feeding 50 or 60 people at one time, you know. So -- and -- and I would get that -- I would get that same smell, uh, when -- when I, uh, got into the Navy and Navy lunchtime, you go into this great big, uh, uh, dining room and -- and they just cooked all the stuff in back of the counter where it came out from and you smelled the cooking. So that was what reminded me of the Navy Yard sometimes, yeah.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

MILTON WURTZEL: That was...

SADY SULLIVAN: So would everybody go have lunch at the same time?

MILTON WURTZEL: No, no. A lot -- most people brought sandwiches or whatever.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: They brought it. And, uh... But, um, I -- I didn't -- I didn't feel like, ahem, imposing on a guy. We were talk -- talking about how did you get to the Navy Yard.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: So getting to the Navy Yard -- getting to the Navy Yard at that 159:00time, ahem, and, uh, I had, uh... What did I have? Oh, I was driving by then. I was driving by then.

SADY SULLIVAN: Oh.

MILTON WURTZEL: I had -- I had -- I had bought my first disaster.

SADY SULLIVAN: [laughter] What was it?

MILTON WURTZEL: My first disaster was a Nash. A Nash Coupe.

SADY SULLIVAN: Mm-hm.

MILTON WURTZEL: And, uh, my father-in-law, who, who, was here with me, my wife's father, went with me because I didn't know a damn thing about cars. So he took and he said, "I'll, I'll take it to a friend of mine. He's a good chiseler. He knows how to -- he knows how to chisel my money." [laughter]